Panorama - 7 November 2016

[Shaw S Hunter]

Watched it on iPlayer and it was better than expected which isn't saying much. I doubt many here will have learned anything. The section on Pacers insisted on peddling the North/South cliche conveniently forgetting that services in the Cardiff Valleys and around Exeter are also highly dependent on them. Plenty of tit-bits about Southern while avoiding the actual issues completely. And the section on split ticketing also avoided highlighting the options going forward: either force the TOCs to include the appropriate software on their TIS or take full control of fares back into the DfT, neither of which is part of current policy. But the programme did at least make the point several times that the DfT is responsible for an awful lot of the decisions which are affecting passengers negatively.

 

[Stew998]

I haven't watched yet, but did see the BBC 'advert' news story on Monday. I do think it would be nice if a programme maker could perhaps point out that trains being late is often down to the fault of commuters blocking doors etc.

So basically the problem is the passengers? :roll:

I realise you're not saying that's the cause of every delay but commuting into London Bridge on Southern at the moment it does sometimes feel like us passengers are helpless witnesses to two kids arguing over our train set.

 

[jon0844]

Because there aren't enough trains for them to fit in. Try Croydon to Victoria/London Bridge between 07.00 and 09.00 any weekday morning and post again.

I think I've seen crush loaded trains over the years, thanks.

But my point is, that many delays and the impact on other services are down to the users, who hold doors open and make trains miss paths. Thus, other people elsewhere suffer delays unnecessarily.

So it IS perhaps a good idea for someone to explain this to the masses, and how waiting for the next train could actually help maintain a better service.

That and the need for rolling stock with more standing room and wider doorways.

A documentary should perhaps try and educate people, and it might help explain why new trains need less seats and that people will have to accept that they may need to stand, but it's a case of standing vs not boarding, not standing vs having a nice comfy seat with an at-seat trolley service.

Programmes need to be balanced, and that's something that doesn't happen a lot in these new bite-sized shows. I do wish Panorama went back to being an hour, but the BBC knows people just wouldn't be able to stand it. In the future, it's more likely Panorama will be compressed into a 2 minute captioned video that will autoplay on social media, without sound, giving simple bullet points.

 

[neilm]

So it IS perhaps a good idea for someone to explain this to the masses, and how waiting for the next train could actually help maintain a better service.

That's all very well an ideal but with southern at the moment there is not always a next service, with reduce timetable and erratic cancellations passengers are not willing to wait for the next train.

In the documentary the women at mersham (I think) mentioned this, when she waited for the next one only for it not to stop.

 

[jon0844]

The problems on Southern, and Govia in general, are exceptional though.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Not exceptional, but clearly the final straw. The program did make it rather clear the DfT was responsible. Think it could have made more of the "no growth" franchises which hasnt helped the situation along with DfT knocking back planned train procurement. (4 car 185, eVoyager for example) Plus it also highlighted RPSS and IPFAS were far from independant. Doubt in the grand scheme of things it will make any difference except 1P55 a few more commuters off. To me however the content was all too predictable. Youtube "old dirty and late", and "running to time" and you will see from these C4 equinox documentaries that a lot of the content really is nothing new...

 

[LAX54]

Strange how many people are in denial. I watched the programme and thought how true it all was - unless of course you're a railway enthusiast who can find no wrong.

Overcrowded unreliable commuter trains - check.
Clapped out grotty old pacers in the north - check.
High fares unless you book ahead and are prepared to travel without compromise on a specific train - check.
Claims by a TOC to be selling the cheapest tickets found to be untrue - check.
Explained how the DfT modulates the railway - check.
Got real commuters to keep a video diary to show that problems are a daily and not an occasional occurence - check.
Explained and showed work on the Elizabeth line with an explanation on how it is hoped it will ease congestion on surface rail - check.
Took a ride on FGW and explained how good their dining service is - check.
Interviewed passengers who explained the problems that they get travelling by rail - check.

Where was the hate/DailyMail style reporting? Is what all the presenter stated untrue? Are all passengers/commuters liars? Are GTR running a cracking service? Was the leaking Pacer done by CGI?
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He was talking about railways, not making a train versus 'plane programme.
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Two minutes on Lastminute.Com has found me a £396 holiday in Rome departing Manchester at 12.55 this Thursday and returning at 18.00 on Sunday. Accomodation is at the 4* Romanico Palace Hotel. Or, for £299 the same days and flights will get you the 2* Hotel Planet.
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And of course no-one on this forum ever does that do they?

In which case do not count 'cheap' fares on airlines when you say fares are expensive ! People say £300 is too much money, but it is no different to an air fare !

 

[northwichcat]

Apparently when it rains Pacers leak the water in.

I've experienced that on some 150s as well. However, if you look at the ceilings on some of the 142s they are sagging badly and I don't think Northern or Angel Trains are going to do anything to fix them given they are planned to be scrapped in the next 3 years.

I haven't watched the program yet, I was planning to look at it tomorrow.
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The section on Pacers insisted on peddling the North/South cliche conveniently forgetting that services in the Cardiff Valleys and around Exeter are also highly dependent on them.

GWR only have 8 Pacers and they seem to be used doubled up sometimes so the number of Pacer operated services in the South West must be very low compared to the number of services.

In Wales it's a South/North divide with all the North Wales branches getting refurbished Sprinters, while many of the South Wales branches getting Pacers.

In both cases all Pacers have been fully refurbished. While with Northern only some of their 79 x 142s have been refurbished and some of those have the infamous Merseytravel layout! Although, Northern do have the most recently refurbished Pacer given they have the 144 that Porterbrook turned in to an 'ePacer.'

 

[Parallel]

I've experienced that on some 150s as well. However, if you look at the ceilings on some of the 142s they are sagging badly and I don't think Northern or Angel Trains are going to do anything to fix them given they are planned to be scrapped in the next 3 years.

GWR only have 8 Pacers and they seem to be used doubled up sometimes so the number of Pacer operated services in the South West must be very low compared to the number of services.

In Wales it's a South/North divide with all the North Wales branches getting refurbished Sprinters, while many of the South Wales branches getting Pacers.

I've seen water pouring in on a GWR 150 about a month ago, not good. GWR also has at least one very leaky 143 as well.

You're likely to find pacers doubled up at peak time in Devon, though now 1 x 143 seems to be attached to 1 x 153 instead. Short forming is frequent though, and some trains just get 1 x 143. The 15:27 Exeter - Barnstaple has been a single pacer the last two times I've seen it and it's been full and standing. Even if it's been a 150, in the past they've still had to send a relief coach.

 

[317 forever]

Once again we have the usual '£300 for a train ticket...can go to somewhere abroad and stay in a luxury hotel for the same' malarky along with split ticketing on Manchester to London without actually saying what comparison they're making

These comparisons are often like comparing apples with oranges. They usually compare fully flexible train fares with restricted air fares.

You are right about this being a poor example of split ticketing. Different trains go via Stoke or Crewe, and the Stoke trains stop at Macclesfield or Milton Keynes but rarely both. So, split ticketing restricts people to trains stopping at the chosen stations.
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I just watched the episode there. The split ticketing piece highlights exactly how a fragmented railway does not work. Paul Plummer made an absolute fool of himself with his comment about how the railway industry could not tackle ticket pricing alone. More worrying though was his completely stupid, crass and downright ignorant closing comment about people's choices. The man should be sacked if he holds such a low regard for the 'customers'!

Indeed, he was criticising people's choice of relative locations of home and job rather than accepting criticism of rail crowding.
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it was meant to be shown 2 weeks ago and apparantly it was gonna be all about Southern.... but for whatever reason it was delayed and changed.

Maybe the programme time was delayed and changed, as this had happened to so many Southern train times!

 

[Crossover]

These comparisons are often like comparing apples with oranges. They usually compare fully flexible train fares with restricted air fares.

You are right about this being a poor example of split ticketing. Different trains go via Stoke or Crewe, and the Stoke trains stop at Macclesfield or Milton Keynes but rarely both. So, split ticketing restricts people to trains stopping at the chosen stations.

I'd agree with your suggestion of it being like a comparison between apples and oranges

 

[Phil.]

In which case do not count 'cheap' fares on airlines when you say fares are expensive ! People say £300 is too much money, but it is no different to an air fare !

£300 return fare (with no guarantee of a seat) to somewhere in the north of England is expensive. The same(ish) amount of money to Rome and back plus two nights on a B&B basis in a hotel is good value. People very very rarely simply turn up at an airport and hotel and buy tickets on the spot, it's accepted that a holiday booking involves some pre-planning. Simple domestic rail travel should not involve scanning websites, asking rail forums for help in split tickets, or booking weeks ahead.

 

[EM2]

£300 return fare (with no guarantee of a seat) to somewhere in the north of England is expensive. The same(ish) amount of money to Rome and back plus two nights on a B&B basis in a hotel is good value. People very very rarely simply turn up at an airport and hotel and buy tickets on the spot, it's accepted that a holiday booking involves some pre-planning. Simple domestic rail travel should not involve scanning websites, asking rail forums for help in split tickets, or booking weeks ahead.

So, having conceded that the two markets are completely different, why try to compare them?

 

[northwichcat]

So, having conceded that the two markets are completely different, why try to compare them?

They are still both forms of transport. For some journeys you can choose a rail or plane option so rail should be competitively priced, otherwise demand for internal flights will increase. Airlines like Easyjet allow you to buy a flexible business ticket whereby you get a seat on a plane but if your meeting overruns or finishes early then subject to availability you can switch to a different flight.

 

[EM2]

They are still both forms of transport. For some journeys you can choose a rail or plane option so rail should be competitively priced, otherwise demand for internal flights will increase. Airlines like Easyjet allow you to buy a flexible business ticket whereby you get a seat on a plane but if your meeting overruns or finishes early then subject to availability you can switch to a different flight.

A pushbike and a Rolls-Royce Phantom are both forms of transport, but they cost vastly differing amounts to use.
It's fine to say Easyjet have this ticket, but if they don't fly to where you need to go, or when you need to go, or have no seats left? And is their ticket fully flexible? Does it have five days validity on the outward and a month on the return? Does it allow for multiple breaks of journey on both legs?

 

[northwichcat]

A pushbike and a Rolls-Royce Phantom are both forms of transport, but they cost vastly differing amounts to use.

But for most people the pushbike can't get you from London to Edinburgh, while a plane, train or any type of car all can.

but if they don't fly to where you need to go

The same can be said of the train - not every area has a station and if there is a station nearby it might be on an east-west line when you want to travel north or south.

And is their ticket fully flexible?

No but it's not dis-similar to how Renfe tickets work on long distances - you must be allocated a seat on a service and you can change which service your seat is on.

Does it allow for multiple breaks of journey on both legs?

I'm sure you can get off at every airport the plane calls at with it.

 

[Phil.]

So, having conceded that the two markets are completely different, why try to compare them?

Look, at the risk of getting moderated (again!) cannot you see that there was no comparing markets, it was prices - in transport - that were getting compared.

 

[jon0844]

£300 return fare (with no guarantee of a seat) to somewhere in the north of England is expensive. The same(ish) amount of money to Rome and back plus two nights on a B&B basis in a hotel is good value. People very very rarely simply turn up at an airport and hotel and buy tickets on the spot, it's accepted that a holiday booking involves some pre-planning. Simple domestic rail travel should not involve scanning websites, asking rail forums for help in split tickets, or booking weeks ahead.

Besides planning in advance for most holidays, I do think people must forget that when searching for flights, hotels etc - whether packages or individually booked - you often spend AGES because so many prices are sky high.

Does anyone think you can go online now, let alone the day before, a holiday for next year and everything is dirt cheap? Flights and hotels will still be priced based on demand, the most convenient flights etc. Those 5am flights might be cheap, but how do you get to the airport exactly? Cab at 1am at a high rate (that you don't include) or an overnight stay at an airport hotel?

Comparisons like this are ridiculous. Just like when someone works out you could hire a banger, insure and tax it, fill it with fuel and drive somewhere cheaper than buying a train ticket. Yeah, good luck doing that regularly on a whim - and working out what you do with the car afterwards. Just dump it in a ditch? Then reclaim your VED. Or maybe try and sell it on, with all the hassle that entails. Or keep it and find that it soon needs a new engine, gearbox..

People travelling by train need to realise that for many services, you need to treat things the same as booking a flight.

I am not saying walk-up fares aren't too expensive, and there could be more done to offer more super off-peak fares, or other discounts (like groupsave, better railcard options) but it really does grate when people with agendas clearly spend a lot of time finding 'random examples' that they've actually worked hard to find that show one method of transport in a poor light, because there might be some high fares on one, and a particularly competitive low-cost option on another.

 

[Phil.]

A pushbike and a Rolls-Royce Phantom are both forms of transport, but they cost vastly differing amounts to use.
It's fine to say Easyjet have this ticket, but if they don't fly to where you need to go, or when you need to go, or have no seats left? And is their ticket fully flexible? Does it have five days validity on the outward and a month on the return? Does it allow for multiple breaks of journey on both legs?

I wouldn't be so hasty in condemning airlines in not taking you where you want to go. I wanted to visit an old school friend in Hemel Hempstead but there's no railway station there. There is a station called Hemel Hemstead but that's in Boxmoor. I shouldn't like to walk from Tring railway station to Tring on a wet day.
Fully flexible ticket? That'll cost you on the trains, we've all read the stories of the person on the wrong train being charged for a full price ticket.
The fact is, that airlines are getting more flexible on tickets and trains are getting more restrictive.

 

[EM2]

Look, at the risk of getting moderated (again!) cannot you see that there was no comparing markets, it was prices - in transport - that were getting compared.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. But in comparing prices, you have to also compare markets, which I'd assumed is why you made your point about the holiday not being an 'on spec' purchase, as it's a different market to the walk-up rail customer.

 

[skyhigh]

I wanted to visit an old school friend in Hemel Hempstead but there's no railway station there.

Off topic, but am I missing something?
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/HML.aspx

 

[EM2]

I wouldn't be so hasty in condemning airlines in not taking you where you want to go. I wanted to visit an old school friend in Hemel Hempstead but there's no railway station there. There is a station called Hemel Hemstead but that's in Boxmoor. I shouldn't like to walk from Tring railway station to Tring on a wet day.
Fully flexible ticket? That'll cost you on the trains, we've all read the stories of the person on the wrong train being charged for a full price ticket.
The fact is, that airlines are getting more flexible on tickets and trains are getting more restrictive.

How far is Luton Airport from the town of Luton? Or Leeds/Bradford airport from either?
The walkup fare quoted on the programme is the Anytime fully flexible train fare, it is vastly more flexible than anything offered by any of the airlines at a similar price.

 

[dviner]

Off topic, but am I missing something?
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/HML.aspx

It's a good 10-15 mins walk from the main shopping area in Hemel, and it's even further away from Hemel Hempstead Old town.

Tring station vs Tring town centre is even worse.

 

[j.crocker355]

BBC uncover crowded commuter trains into our largest City shock.......

whilst I sympathise with the poor 'customers' of Southern with their canx trains and ongoing disputes.....it's not going to improve anytime soon.

Although I reside within the London commuter belt, I don't have to work in London, but many of my neighbours do, and they accept that's what it says on the tin, they leave early, arrive home late and the train journey isn't always that great. but they acknowledge that's their lifestyle choice.

Some of them do benefit from either working from home for a couple of days and others can work flexible hours.....but most have the daily 'slog'

I just think the demand on those peak services will always be ahead of the equipment available curve as is the case in most of the globe's largest cities.

Not wanting to labour a point though, but aren't trains crowded in rush hour Tokyo too?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[northwichcat]

How far is Luton Airport from the town of Luton? Or Leeds/Bradford airport from either?
The walkup fare quoted on the programme is the Anytime fully flexible train fare, it is vastly more flexible than anything offered by any of the airlines at a similar price.

But what if you don't like in the centre of Leeds or Bradford but live in Otley, Horsforth or Wetherby? That means you are closer to the Airport than a city centre station and in the case of Otley or Wetherby you don't have to face a very slow road trip out of the city centre to get home after you alight the train.

 

[EM2]

But what if you don't like in the centre of Leeds or Bradford but live in Otley, Horsforth or Wetherby? That means you are closer to the Airport than a city centre station and in the case of Otley or Wetherby you don't have to face a very slow road trip out of the city centre to get home after you alight the train.

So you'll fly everywhere then

 

[northwichcat]

So you'll fly everywhere then

No but you can't travel by train everywhere either. I make a weekly journey by bus which I can't make by train despite my town having a station.

 

[Phil.]

Off topic, but am I missing something?
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/HML.aspx

Yes, you're missing the point that someone made about airlines not taking you to where you really want to go.

 

[EM2]

Yes, you're missing the point that someone made about airlines not taking you to where you really want to go.

Not 'where you really want to go', but 'nowhere near where you want to go'. It was mentioned that EasyJet have a 'flexible ticket'. My point was that they may not fly to your destination or anywhere near it, so the fact that they have a flexible ticket is moot.
If you want to go to Auxerre, for example, the nearest that Easyjet will get you is Paris, 200km away.
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No but you can't travel by train everywhere either. I make a weekly journey by bus which I can't make by train despite my town having a station.

Of course you can't travel by train everywhere. Nobody said that you could. But you can travel by train to (or near to) more places than you can fly.
And (to return to the point being made in Panorama) a flexible rail ticket is vastly more flexible than a flexible air ticket. That is what you are paying for, whether you use that flexibility or not.

 

[randyrippley]

- Too much emphasis on Pacers and them being 30 years old. I'd have liked them to have explained the normal life of a train is 30-40 years.

but Pacers aren't trains, they're repurposed buses with max 20 years body life