Panorama - 7 November 2016

[anti-pacer]

Did anyone watch this?

If so what did you think? I think it grossly exaggerated train travel up north, like ALL we have is leaking Pacers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37835087

...On some commuter lines out of Manchester, more than six out of every 10 trains are late each day. On one commuter line into Birmingham, four out of every 10 trains have been late....

...Today, some 160,000 commuters coming into London can't get a seat....

...In 2014-15, an organisation called Commute London counted 1.1 million overtly negative tweets about commuters' "customer experience"....

...John Ware presents Panorama: The Trouble with our Trains on BBC One at 19:30 GMT on Monday 7 November and available on the iPlayer in the UK afterwards.

 

[CC 72100]

I've watched the first half of it or so, and my gut reaction is cliché after cliché after cliché...

 

[Crossover]

Once again we have the usual '£300 for a train ticket...can go to somewhere abroad and stay in a luxury hotel for the same' malarky along with split ticketing on Manchester to London without actually saying what comparison they're making

 

[Hadders]

Not the worst programme I've ever seen but predictable Daily Hate style reporting.

Did blame DfT for many of the issues which was good to see.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Did anyone watch this?

If so what did you think? I think it grossly exaggerated train travel up north, like ALL we have is leaking Pacer's.

Leaking Pacer's what, please?

Don't keep us in suspense!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Once again we have the usual '£300 for a train ticket...can go to somewhere abroad and stay in a luxury hotel for the same' malarky

Indeed, deliberately picking the highest price on the day ticket and comparing it against a flight booked weeks in advance like they normally do.

 

[Mag_seven]

I've watched the first half of it or so, and my gut reaction is cliché after cliché after cliché...

"long suffering commuters", "highest rail fares in Europe", "clapped out and dirty", "dangerous overcrowding" etc etc etc

 

[CommuterPigeon]

I assumed it would be an hour of the same recycled arguments, clichés and comparisons against the rail industry you find in the tabloids rather than any sort of proper explanation of it so decided to avoid it.

Would be nice if the BBC could devote an hour explaining things like why TOCs can't make trains longer at a drop of a hat, why infrastructure projects take as long as they do or some of the reasons trains get cancelled. But then that won't attract as many viewers I suppose!

 

[Dhassell]

Guessed from the start, It was just a load about slagging off Southern everyway they could!

 

[LAX54]

Once again we have the usual '£300 for a train ticket...can go to somewhere abroad and stay in a luxury hotel for the same' malarky along with split ticketing on Manchester to London without actually saying what comparison they're making

Using the same 'walk up' fare for the same trip Manchester o London:
B.A. 448 quid !!! and that does not include getting to / from the airport !

 

[Dave1987]

Actually thought it wasn't too bad.

 

[anti-pacer]

Leaking Pacer's what, please?

Don't keep us in suspense!

Apparently when it rains Pacers leak the water in.

 

[frodshamfella]

Travelled today from Widnes to Sheffield on an EMT Norwich service. I had a reserved seat thank god, it was already standing, and had only left Lime Street, two carriages only same on the way back, so pretty poor.

I also stood with many others from Hooton to Liverpool on Sunday on a 3 car Merseyrail service, someone else standing said they thought there was a football match on, I wouldn't know, but id expect Merseyrail to, and provide longer trains. However I normally have no gripe with them, there a decent TOC.

 

[Howardh]

Apparently when it rains Pacers leak the water in.

It's fantastic. You don't need to shower after getting out of bed, you can have one on the train!

 

[Crossover]

Using the same 'walk up' fare for the same trip Manchester o London:
B.A. 448 quid !!! and that does not include getting to / from the airport !

No room for such reasoned logic

Apparently when it rains Pacers leak the water in.

No apparently about it - I have experienced the same on a 144 a couple of years ago...the back cab was like a paddling pool!

 

[Phil.]

Strange how many people are in denial. I watched the programme and thought how true it all was - unless of course you're a railway enthusiast who can find no wrong.

Overcrowded unreliable commuter trains - check.
Clapped out grotty old pacers in the north - check.
High fares unless you book ahead and are prepared to travel without compromise on a specific train - check.
Claims by a TOC to be selling the cheapest tickets found to be untrue - check.
Explained how the DfT modulates the railway - check.
Got real commuters to keep a video diary to show that problems are a daily and not an occasional occurence - check.
Explained and showed work on the Elizabeth line with an explanation on how it is hoped it will ease congestion on surface rail - check.
Took a ride on FGW and explained how good their dining service is - check.
Interviewed passengers who explained the problems that they get travelling by rail - check.

Where was the hate/DailyMail style reporting? Is what all the presenter stated untrue? Are all passengers/commuters liars? Are GTR running a cracking service? Was the leaking Pacer done by CGI?
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Using the same 'walk up' fare for the same trip Manchester o London:
B.A. 448 quid !!! and that does not include getting to / from the airport !

He was talking about railways, not making a train versus 'plane programme.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Once again we have the usual '£300 for a train ticket...can go to somewhere abroad and stay in a luxury hotel for the same' malarky along with split ticketing on Manchester to London without actually saying what comparison they're making

Two minutes on Lastminute.Com has found me a £396 holiday in Rome departing Manchester at 12.55 this Thursday and returning at 18.00 on Sunday. Accomodation is at the 4* Romanico Palace Hotel. Or, for £299 the same days and flights will get you the 2* Hotel Planet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Guessed from the start, It was just a load about slagging off Southern everyway they could!

And of course no-one on this forum ever does that do they?

 

[neilm]

Guessed from the start, It was just a load about slagging off Southern everyway they could!

As a Southern commuter I 100% agree with it, since Mid April 2016 or January 2015 we have not had a reliable train service at all. Least they got it right and said the DfT is really the issue and not Southern/Govia.

 

[anti-pacer]

What annoyed me about the programme is that he kind of made out that ALL our trains are Pacers. He made a comment about them linking our main cities, and whilst partially true, all Northern cities are connected by far superior stock. Look at Manchester an Liverpool, they're connected at present by 185's, 158's, 156's, and 319's - all better than the 142's that also ply between the two.

 

[neilm]

What annoyed me about the programme is that he kind of made out that ALL our trains are Pacers. He made a comment about them linking our main cities, and whilst partially true, all Northern cities are connected by far superior stock. Look at Manchester an Liverpool, they're connected at present by 185's, 158's, 156's, and 319's - all better than the 142's that also ply between the two.

Indeed but also he pointed out it is not northerns fault but again the DfT.

As for the quote from the rail delivery group, it just shows how out of touch they are as well.

 

[anti-pacer]

Indeed but also he pointed out it is not northerns fault but again the DfT.

As for the quote from the rail delivery group, it just shows how out of touch they are as well.

Granted he did, but then went on about the North/South divide being evident. Whilst he did mention the Pacers were going in 2020 (a year later than is the case), he didn't mention the new stock that both Northern and TPE are getting.

 

[neilm]

Granted he did, but then went on about the North/South divide being evident. Whilst he did mention the Pacers were going in 2020 (a year later than is the case), he didn't mention the new stock that both Northern and TPE are getting.

Which is some 319s which are cast off from the South? [emoji6]

So I can see why he said it....

 

[anti-pacer]

Which is some 319s which are cast off from the South? [emoji6]

So I can see why he said it....

I'm not disagreeing that we in the North have been treated poorly in the past in terms of stock, but we can't really complain now.

 

[Hadders]

It wasn't the worst rail bashing programme ever (wasn't there one called Old, Dirty and Late in BR days? and one that featured an Inter-city service to Leeds that were terrible?)

It did make clear that the DfT called the shots and it did mention that passenger numbers had almost doubled since privatisation. I'd make the following additional points:

- there was lots of Southern bashing (understandable)
- Exposed IPFAS as not being independent (and said it would become properly independent)
- Too much emphasis on Pacers and them being 30 years old. I'd have liked them to have explained the normal life of a train is 30-40 years.
- The mention of Crossrail was good and it mentioned Crossrail 2.
- It would've been good if Thameslink and the capacity enhancements had been mentioned
- An explanation that many of our routes into London are full to capacity at peak times would've been helpful.

 

[matt_world2004]

I thought the documentary was quite fair. The experiance of passengers matched ny experiance of services I have travelled on, the rail delivery group guy came across as very arrogant

 

[moggie]

Considering it was the BBC and despite a few well worn cliche's I thought it was pretty near the mark. In particular its exposure of DfT's true role.

And people call for rail nationalisation!

 

[bramling]

As a Southern commuter I 100% agree with it, since Mid April 2016 or January 2015 we have not had a reliable train service at all. Least they got it right and said the DfT is really the issue and not Southern/Govia.

Yes, in my view any criticism of the GTR franchise is well deserved. The service on all parts of this franchise really has been rock bottom for the last year or more.

It's hard to pin down exactly where the blame lies. My impression is it's six of one and half a dozen of the other between Govia and DFT.

 

[Monty]

It's fantastic. You don't need to shower after getting out of bed, you can have one on the train!

Only if you have paid the relevant supplement to the guard or a failure to pay notice from Northern Rail will be issued.

 

[IanD]

Using the same 'walk up' fare for the same trip Manchester o London:
B.A. 448 quid !!! and that does not include getting to / from the airport !

Nor does the cost of the train ticket include getting to/from the station.

As for the quote from the rail delivery group, it just shows how out of touch they are as well.

He was right. People have the choice to drive or they could live near where they work or work near where they live. Indeed the bloke commuting from Rainham decided to exercise one of those choices.

 

[neilm]

Nor does the cost of the train ticket include getting to/from the station.



He was right. People have the choice to drive or they could live near where they work or work near where they live. Indeed the bloke commuting from Rainham decided to exercise one of those choices.

Are you aware of prices in London? I cannot drive to work or move nearer work. I rely on any TOC to take me to work.

 

[AlterEgo]

He was right. People have the choice to drive or they could live near where they work or work near where they live. Indeed the bloke commuting from Rainham decided to exercise one of those choices.

Do you think all the people in Rainham who work in London could work in Rainham for no net loss in disposable income? Where are those jobs?

If everyone who worked in London lived in London, how much more would they need to be paid? And, what would happen to house prices?

Just batting off the argument by saying "well don't use the train then" is amazingly out of touch!