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30th birthday Bus Privatisation in England

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radamfi

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I didn't miss anything. As I said "I may extend that food, being able to gain all the nutrition I require, and enjoy the full sensory pleasure, by looking at an image whilst ignoring the need to taste or smell it". The idea that you can accurately understand the quality of a bus service by looking at a stationery bus or reading a timetable is frankly ludicrous. You're not the only person on this board to use transport abroad. However, the idea that you can dismiss something whilst not actually experiencing it is foolish and undermines any cogent argument you may have.

In fact, if you were to clamber down from your position of moral outrage and travel on a new Stagecoach or First e400mmc, you'd find it more comfortable than most European citybuses.

Have these new Stagecoach and First buses got double-glazing or air conditioning? Will they steam up in winter? I've been on the latest British buses, 66-reg ones in London. Even in London I'm not too happy about travelling on them in winter given that they steam up so easily. In winter I don't even do London bus trips as a result. Whereas the Citaros and MANs I ride on in the Netherlands are as comfortable as they are in summer and I can still see out of the window.

The fact is that, as has been said by myself and others, other countries have identified the need to invest in public transport. Amount spent per capita (2011) illustrates this

  • Vienna $407
  • Amsterdam $393
  • Stuttgart $298
  • Zurich $279
  • London $271
  • Berlin $183
  • Manchester $28
  • Glasgow $20
  • Newcastle $11

Clearly, only London in the UK enjoys the level of expenditure on public transport and that is where bus travel has enjoyed increased patronage. THAT is the issue - we don't support public transport at the ballot boxes and our politicians are seldom brave enough to make difficult decisions.

So, Britain sucks. You agree with me.

As for "worst case scenario is no buses ever again. That's only a little worse than what we have now given that hardly anyone uses buses now anyway. It's got to be worth a try." Well, apart from c.2.3 billion journeys outside London. Of course, you may espouse being able to boycott local bus services. There are a great many people cannot effect such a boycott and many more who would identify that it would cause much greater pain in terms of congestion and pollution.

We haven't cared about the pain when previously "socially necessary" services have been withdrawn. Even routes that were previously commercial have not been replaced. We can therefore conclude that there is no such thing as a socially necessary service. Britain couldn't care less about such disenfranchised people. They would rather have pollution and social exclusion.

However, I am also a realist - we never spend the money we need to and certainly whilst infrastructure gets politicians good press, the ongoing support needed is never funded sufficiently (see ENCTS). Going for London style franchising without London style funding will change nothing.

Then fund it properly. That goes without saying. It is pointless doing anything without proper funding.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Eh? The bus is by far the most-used mode of public transport in the UK.

Only 5% of distance travelled in England is by bus, and that includes London. 10% of distance travelled in England is by train. Even going off number of trips, only 7% of trips in England are by bus (including London).

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/489894/tsgb-2015.pdf (page 2)
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Have these new Stagecoach and First buses got double-glazing or air conditioning? Will they steam up in winter? I've been on the latest British buses, 66-reg ones in London. Even in London I'm not too happy about travelling on them in winter given that they steam up so easily. In winter I don't even do London bus trips as a result. Whereas the Citaros and MANs I ride on in the Netherlands are as comfortable as they are in summer and I can still see out of the window.



So, Britain sucks. You agree with me.



We haven't cared about the pain when previously "socially necessary" services have been withdrawn. Even routes that were previously commercial have not been replaced. We can therefore conclude that there is no such thing as a socially necessary service. Britain couldn't care less about such disenfranchised people. They would rather have pollution and social exclusion.



Then fund it properly. That goes without saying. It is pointless doing anything without proper funding.

I've spent many years travelling on buses. Now, what is more important to passengers - steamed up windows or seat comfort? So, having travelled on Citaros, Irisbuses, Omnicities in various European countries, that is much more of an issue. I've just returned from Spain and I could point to various instances of having to stand for journeys of 20-25 minutes though preferable to sitting on plastic moulded seats. The idea that bus design in Europe is somehow perfect is way off the mark.

Also, I don't see how some sort of scorched earth boycott can achieve anything. Also, extrapolate it out - if you can't have a fully funded NHS, then we shouldn't have a health service at all? Of course, that's a preposterous thing to say! Same with a bus service - an imperfect one is still better to most people than no service at all.

I don't agree that Britain sucks. We have a world leading National Health Service, excellent universities, a thriving arts and cultural scene and have a lot more to be proud of. Public transport provision is not the only or final arbiter on whether a country sucks or not, and for most people, it is barely a consideration. Arguably, the influx of immigrants, whether EU citizens or not and whether escaping poverty or conflict, indicates that the UK remains a fantastic (though imperfect) country that provides opportunities and social tolerance (though again, not perfect especially the abhorrent post-ref racist instances that even most Brexiteers would be ashamed of).

However, I don't wish to deviate from the central issue of funding. The fact is that whilst I would love to see funding of comparable levels, and think it's the right thing to do, I don't see us going for that as a nation. We had an election LAST YEAR and more people voted for the political party that most espoused austerity than anyone else.

My point is, as others have said, is that "London style franchising" is not the answer. London style funding is and that merely re-regulating bus services does not fundamentally change anything except introduce further management costs etc. That's why the Nexus farce was kicked out, and also explains the reticence of local authorities to get involved.
 

nerd

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Why? The worst case scenario is no buses ever again. That's only a little worse than what we have now given that hardly anyone uses buses now anyway. It's got to be worth a try.

I realise that you have penchant for rhetorical exaggeration radamafi; but even so, understanding the current state of bus services in the UK requires a rather more realistic factual basis than "hardly anyone uses buses now anyway". There are a lot of people who use buses; indeed in a number of town and city centres in the UK total bus users at peak outnumber total car users. And we know that urban car usage, at peak, is decreasing; and that a high proportion of current urban car users are reluctant, and would switch to an alternative - bikes and/or public transport - if they were confident that those options suited their needs. Hence, as urban car usage has dropped, so (with a lag) bike and public transport usage has been increasing rapidly.

The conundrum is that this major social shift - perhaps the biggest social shift of the past ten years - has largely passed the bus industry by. Overall urban bus use continues to fall (outside London); both in absolute terms and as a proportion of peak period trips. It is reasonable to ask whether the current deregulated structure may have become an inhibition against bus travel taking advantage of the new reality of urban transport? An approach that may have 'worked' in keeping bus transport in being in the years when demand was falling, may now be a barrier to effective functioning in a period when demand may otherwise be expected to have been rising fast.

A few factual observations:

- Bus travel remains far the most common mode of urban public transport outside London; even in cities with good access to alternative modes - rail, metro, tram. Moreover, although bus usage has fallen, there is little evidence for bus usage dropping more in cities with good access to alternative modes; the expansion of light rail in such cities as Nottingham and Manchester has been at the expense of car and train use, not bus use.

- Bus capacity is seriously under-used; whereas light rail systems at peak typically run with loadings of 70% or more at peak periods (with the majority of peak period users consequently travelling standing-up); bus loadings, over peak periods, rarely average more than 40%. If we take a 'reasonable' door-to door commute time as being 45 minutes; then almost every urban bus system in the UK could satisfy demand by doubling its current patronage, without increasing services at all - simply from commuters who could 'reasonably' travel to work by bus, but who nevertheless still drive. Which would remove more than a third of current car traffic from the roads, and solve urban congestion problems at a stroke.

- There are a number of exceptions to the general pattern of failure of bus services to increase patronage. Especially in more affluent parts of Southern England and along the South Coast, but also in some major towns and cities - Bristol, Bath, Oxford, Cambridge, Reading, Nottingham. Often - though not always - these are characterised by the local market not having fallen under the control of one of the big conglomerate operators. There are also particular spectacular examples of patronage growth associated with major public investment in busways; Cambridgeshire, Leigh-Salford-Manchester, Fareham-Gosport, Luton-Dunstable. In some places these have used former rail alignments, in others busways have been taken out of major radial routes. Characteristically these have all faced strident opposition; which has managed to progress from "Its a waste of money as no one will use it"; to "Its a waste of money as its always too crowded; clogging up local roads with the parked cars of bus users." And there have been particular examples of high patronage growth in longer distance commuter bus services with enhanced quality provision - Cityzap, Service 36, Red Express, Witch Way.

It appears to a number of observers (and me), that the market of bus travel is being split - although of course both markets may often travel on the same buses. For my own convenience, I tend to find that the label 'Bus Rapid Transit' can apply to the services that have shown big patronage growth - though these tend not to have many of the characteristics of BRT in its classic forms in Latin America and Europe. But what we find is that the features that attract riders to UK-type BRT are often opposite to those that attract riders to continuing local bus services. Local bus users like to be able to buy tickets from the driver (and to receive change), BRT users prefer universal pre-ticketing with TVMs at stops, or through smartphone apps; local users value frequent stops close to home, BRT users prefer to "walk further to travel faster"; local users don't mind standing, BRT users expect to sit in a comfortable seat with leg-room and space to keep connected; local users value discounted weekly tickets for a journey, BRT users value multi-mode tickets that allow connect across services at no extra cost.

The problem is that the current deregulated system is designed to encourage operators to compete with one another,and with other modes, and to prevent public authorities running and profiting from bus provision;. But the BRT services almost always require major public investment - investment that is easily justified in Benefit Cost terms, given the massive increase in road user capacity that can follow. But such major investment really needs a payback - public agencies need to be able to monetise some of the value and profitability of the expanded demand, so as to plough this back into further expansion. Which is exactly what the deregulation legislation was set up to prevent.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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I realise that you have penchant for rhetorical exaggeration radamafi; but even so, understanding the current state of bus services in the UK requires a rather more realistic factual basis than "hardly anyone uses buses now anyway". There are a lot of people who use buses; indeed in a number of town and city centres in the UK total bus users at peak outnumber total car users. And we know that urban car usage, at peak, is decreasing; and that a high proportion of current urban car users are reluctant, and would switch to an alternative - bikes and/or public transport - if they were confident that those options suited their needs. Hence, as urban car usage has dropped, so (with a lag) bike and public transport usage has been increasing rapidly.

The conundrum is that this major social shift - perhaps the biggest social shift of the past ten years - has largely passed the bus industry by. Overall urban bus use continues to fall (outside London); both in absolute terms and as a proportion of peak period trips. It is reasonable to ask whether the current deregulated structure may have become an inhibition against bus travel taking advantage of the new reality of urban transport? An approach that may have 'worked' in keeping bus transport in being in the years when demand was falling, may now be a barrier to effective functioning in a period when demand may otherwise be expected to have been rising fast.

A few factual observations:

- Bus travel remains far the most common mode of urban public transport outside London; even in cities with good access to alternative modes - rail, metro, tram. Moreover, although bus usage has fallen, there is little evidence for bus usage dropping more in cities with good access to alternative modes; the expansion of light rail in such cities as Nottingham and Manchester has been at the expense of car and train use, not bus use.

- Bus capacity is seriously under-used; whereas light rail systems at peak typically run with loadings of 70% or more at peak periods (with the majority of peak period users consequently travelling standing-up); bus loadings, over peak periods, rarely average more than 40%. If we take a 'reasonable' door-to door commute time as being 45 minutes; then almost every urban bus system in the UK could satisfy demand by doubling its current patronage, without increasing services at all - simply from commuters who could 'reasonably' travel to work by bus, but who nevertheless still drive. Which would remove more than a third of current car traffic from the roads, and solve urban congestion problems at a stroke.

- There are a number of exceptions to the general pattern of failure of bus services to increase patronage. Especially in more affluent parts of Southern England and along the South Coast, but also in some major towns and cities - Bristol, Bath, Oxford, Cambridge, Reading, Nottingham. Often - though not always - these are characterised by the local market not having fallen under the control of one of the big conglomerate operators. There are also particular spectacular examples of patronage growth associated with major public investment in busways; Cambridgeshire, Leigh-Salford-Manchester, Fareham-Gosport, Luton-Dunstable. In some places these have used former rail alignments, in others busways have been taken out of major radial routes. Characteristically these have all faced strident opposition; which has managed to progress from "Its a waste of money as no one will use it"; to "Its a waste of money as its always too crowded; clogging up local roads with the parked cars of bus users." And there have been particular examples of high patronage growth in longer distance commuter bus services with enhanced quality provision - Cityzap, Service 36, Red Express, Witch Way.

It appears to a number of observers (and me), that the market of bus travel is being split - although of course both markets may often travel on the same buses. For my own convenience, I tend to find that the label 'Bus Rapid Transit' can apply to the services that have shown big patronage growth - though these tend not to have many of the characteristics of BRT in its classic forms in Latin America and Europe. But what we find is that the features that attract riders to UK-type BRT are often opposite to those that attract riders to continuing local bus services. Local bus users like to be able to buy tickets from the driver (and to receive change), BRT users prefer universal pre-ticketing with TVMs at stops, or through smartphone apps; local users value frequent stops close to home, BRT users prefer to "walk further to travel faster"; local users don't mind standing, BRT users expect to sit in a comfortable seat with leg-room and space to keep connected; local users value discounted weekly tickets for a journey, BRT users value multi-mode tickets that allow connect across services at no extra cost.

The problem is that the current deregulated system is designed to encourage operators to compete with one another,and with other modes, and to prevent public authorities running and profiting from bus provision;. But the BRT services almost always require major public investment - investment that is easily justified in Benefit Cost terms, given the massive increase in road user capacity that can follow. But such major investment really needs a payback - public agencies need to be able to monetise some of the value and profitability of the expanded demand, so as to plough this back into further expansion. Which is exactly what the deregulation legislation was set up to prevent.

Some very valid points there. You rightly mention the affluence of some of the high points especially in Southern England. One of the challenges, certainly in Northern England, has been the overall decline in economic activity. The starkest example has been in East Cleveland where bus travel has decreased by 27% over the last five years - not surprisingly, this is an area where JSA/UC claimant levels are well above the national average, with higher levels of unemployment and long term sick/disabled. A recent trip to Middlesbrough was certainly illuminating, representing a much less vibrant place than I remember in my youth.
 

Bletchleyite

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Only 5% of distance travelled in England is by bus, and that includes London.

That is a terrible statistic to use, because bus is overridingly used for short journeys, as that is its big strong point. Number of trips is better, on which it is quite low as you quoted, but well above train.

If you use distance air is going to win out by some margin, but air, while popular, is still very much a niche mode of transport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For my own convenience, I tend to find that the label 'Bus Rapid Transit' can apply to the services that have shown big patronage growth - though these tend not to have many of the characteristics of BRT in its classic forms in Latin America and Europe.

I think one thing we do need to do with the BRT concept is to apply bits of it to *all* services in a city rather than having a small number of very good ones. Bus lane design is a particular bugbear, where they invariably end before traffic lights rather than allowing the bus a totally clear run with the cars stopped. Buses invariably share bus lanes with bicycles, when they are not at all compatible[1] - a dedicated cycle lane is better. Another is ticketing - on-bus pay-the-driver ticketing paid by cash and with change given is very, very slow (and slow means unattractive) - London has shown how you can really improve that - we really need to get the cash off the bus, and contactless, using prepaid cards if necessary, is to me the clear answer.

[1] Cycles are best if they can maintain a constant but relatively low speed. Buses need to be able to run at a higher speed between stops. The effect of combining the two where the adjacent general traffic lane is busy is that buses top out at cycling speed, which as they also stop makes them slower than cycling - that is not an acceptable service level - and at the same time cyclists have to execute excessive numbers of overtaking manoeuvres past buses, which are large vehicles with large blind spots, putting them at risk.
 
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radamfi

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That is a terrible statistic to use, because bus is overridingly used for short journeys, as that is its big strong point. Number of trips is better, on which it is quite low as you quoted, but well above train.

If you use distance air is going to win out by some margin, but air, while popular, is still very much a niche mode of transport.

"Train" includes urban metros and light rail which overlap with bus a lot, especially in Britain because buses often duplicate and sometimes even compete with trams/metros. If you look at transport statistics for some other countries, tram/metro is typically lumped in with bus. An advantage of using distance is that it is not distorted by people changing from one vehicle to another.

If you look at the linked spreadsheet where there is more detail, air is there at 1.1% of distance.
 
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nerd

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"Train" includes urban metros and light rail which overlap with bus a lot, especially in Britain because buses often duplicate and sometimes even compete with trams/metros. If you look at transport statistics for some other countries, tram/metro is typically lumped in with bus. An advantage of using distance is that it is not distorted by people changing from one vehicle to another.

If you look at the linked spreadsheet where there is more detail, air is there at 1.1% of distance.

A better understanding of what is happening can be found here. Look especially at page 74.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...and_opportunities_in_the_North_of_England.pdf

Trip distances are not not strictly comparable across modes; especially where there are large proportions of park-and-ride trips. For the statistics these are supposed to be counted against the mode used for the largest proportion of the trip; but effectively this means that all bus park-and-rides tend to be counted as car journeys, while all train park-and-rides tend to be counted as train journeys.

Better to look at journey to work trips by mode.

The key point here is that, while peak-period car journeys to work are everywhere dropping; car use at peak is in some places increasing. As the car ceases to be seen as a mode of transport of choice for work, it has become a mode of transport of choice for domestic trips: kids to school, meeting friends, access to recreation and shops. In many urban streets, car commuters are now intruders; inhibiting local residents from accessing the road for uses of higher domestic priority.

Moreover, although cars now tend to be driven less at peak, there are a lot more of them around, and they are decreasingly likely to be kept off road in run-ups or garages. So even when not in use, they still occupy the public highway. You may recall that Liverpool suspended its bus lanes a few years back; in expectation that they would allow increased road capacity for general traffic. But in fact users simply used suspeded bus lanes for extra parking.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think one thing we do need to do with the BRT concept is to apply bits of it to *all* services in a city rather than having a small number of very good ones. Bus lane design is a particular bugbear, where they invariably end before traffic lights rather than allowing the bus a totally clear run with the cars stopped. Buses invariably share bus lanes with bicycles, when they are not at all compatible[1] - a dedicated cycle lane is better. Another is ticketing - on-bus pay-the-driver ticketing paid by cash and with change given is very, very slow (and slow means unattractive) - London has shown how you can really improve that - we really need to get the cash off the bus, and contactless, using prepaid cards if necessary, is to me the clear answer.

[1] Cycles are best if they can maintain a constant but relatively low speed. Buses need to be able to run at a higher speed between stops. The effect of combining the two where the adjacent general traffic lane is busy is that buses top out at cycling speed, which as they also stop makes them slower than cycling - that is not an acceptable service level - and at the same time cyclists have to execute excessive numbers of overtaking manoeuvres past buses, which are large vehicles with large blind spots, putting them at risk.

Don't agree Neil.

I see two different models of 'enchanced bus' operation emerging:

- One being what I have termed UK-style BRT; typically double-deckers with more spacious seating provision, running much faster than local stopping buses, with limited stops, and serving predominantly longer distance trips (6-50km).

- The other being more similar to BRT elsewhere in the world, typically articulated vehicles with multiple exits and pre-ticketing, a high proportion of standing accommodation, much lower top speeds, frequent stops, predominantly serving shorter trips. The Birmingham 'Sprint' proposals look to present this approach, as does the Belfast BRT network. I would expect such services fairly soon to convert to battery electric power.

The Manchester LSM busway is in some respects a hybrid of the two approaches, being UK-style BRT on the upper deck; but more like a standard BRT on the lower deck.

I do agree with respect to bikes though; bikes need to run in separate bike lanes inboard of bus stops. MAMIL Bike users tend not to like these though, as they mean that bike lanes do not allow riders to go as fast as possible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some very valid points there. You rightly mention the affluence of some of the high points especially in Southern England. One of the challenges, certainly in Northern England, has been the overall decline in economic activity. The starkest example has been in East Cleveland where bus travel has decreased by 27% over the last five years - not surprisingly, this is an area where JSA/UC claimant levels are well above the national average, with higher levels of unemployment and long term sick/disabled. A recent trip to Middlesbrough was certainly illuminating, representing a much less vibrant place than I remember in my youth.

The cultural and social shift against using cars for work (and in favour of reserving cars for family purposes) has a strong geographical skew. On the south coast - e.g. Brighton - members if more affluent car owning families are much less likely to drive to work than are less affluent car owners. In Cleveland it is still the other way round, work-related car use increases with income. Over the next few years, I expect the south coast pattern of preference to become general.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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"Train" includes urban metros and light rail which overlap with bus a lot, especially in Britain because buses often duplicate and sometimes even compete with trams/metros. If you look at transport statistics for some other countries, tram/metro is typically lumped in with bus. An advantage of using distance is that it is not distorted by people changing from one vehicle to another.

If you look at the linked spreadsheet where there is more detail, air is there at 1.1% of distance.

Sorry but Neil is absolutely right to draw attention to that. 7% of journeys are by bus. That's as much as rail, air and train combined (or are we saying that no-one uses the train much these days). We can't have selective use of figures... Of course Air will have a disproportionate amount of mileage per journey. Conversely, Walk will be disproportionately low in terms of mileage (3%) and so it proves to be despite being used for 22% of journeys.

What is the indisputable truth is despite falls in patronage, over 4 billion journeys are made by bus each year and that were those bus services be removed, the modal shift would be massively to the private car and away from public transport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A better understanding of what is happening can be found here. Look especially at page 74.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...and_opportunities_in_the_North_of_England.pdf

Trip distances are not not strictly comparable across modes; especially where there are large proportions of park-and-ride trips. For the statistics these are supposed to be counted against the mode used for the largest proportion of the trip; but effectively this means that all bus park-and-rides tend to be counted as car journeys, while all train park-and-rides tend to be counted as train journeys.

Better to look at journey to work trips by mode.

The cultural and social shift against using cars for work (and in favour of reserving cars for family purposes) has a strong geographical skew. On the south coast - e.g. Brighton - members if more affluent car owning families are much less likely to drive to work than are less affluent car owners. In Cleveland it is still the other way round, work-related car use increases with income. Over the next few years, I expect the south coast pattern of preference to become general.

Some interesting points there.

I think there's some validity in what you say regarding affluence and car owners. That is perhaps tied to the dreadful traffic congestion and pro-bus approach in places like Oxford and Cambridge; whether that will extend elsewhere, I don't know!
 

radamfi

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What is the indisputable truth is despite falls in patronage, over 4 billion journeys are made by bus each year and that were those bus services be removed, the modal shift would be massively to the private car and away from public transport.

Given that many (most?) of bus trips are local within towns, should buses outside London cease, a lot of those may well be replaced by walking given that a lot of them are by people who don't have a car available. Some without cars may be forced onto bikes even though bike infrastructure is poor. We could probably analyse how people travel in the many towns where buses hardly exist on Sundays. That may give us a clue what would happen.

Obviously the aim of a boycott plan would not be a cessation of buses. I would clearly be hoping for a positive intervention before that happened. But the worst case scenario is already a reality to an extent.

2.3 billion trips sounds like a lot, but given that 7% of trips are by bus including London, what does that give us outside London? 5% or less? That's ridiculously low.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That is perhaps tied to the dreadful traffic congestion and pro-bus approach in places like Oxford and Cambridge; whether that will extend elsewhere, I don't know!

You could argue that people are forced into buses in Oxford, Cambridge, Brighton and some other places because car travel is simply impractical in many cases.
 
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nerd

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Some interesting points there.

I think there's some validity in what you say regarding affluence and car owners. That is perhaps tied to the dreadful traffic congestion and pro-bus approach in places like Oxford and Cambridge; whether that will extend elsewhere, I don't know!

Doesn't seem to correlate well with congestion. More, I think, that social aspirations for driving yourself to work arose through a very particular set of postwar circumstances; which now decreasingly apply. Before WWII barristers, bankers, company directors, hospital consultants and country landowners would never dream of driving themselves to work; they might be chauffer-driven to the local station, but then travelled first class, with a taxi-ride to their destination. In effect, we are seeing this pattern re-asserted in 21st century form. Driving and parking are unpleasant work in themselves - and more so year by year; much more congenial to have someone else do it - especially so for persons of higher business status, now that 'being connected' is seen as synonymous with 'being in charge'.
 

radamfi

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It is typically British to try and clutch straws by putting the most positive spin on statistics. Wow, 2.3 billion people use buses! That's a lot! And look at the big improvements in patronage in Brighton, Reading and Nottingham! Buses must be doing really well!

Same as for cycling. We keep hearing how "cycling is booming" and we are reaping the benefits of cycling success at the Olympics. But look at those statistics again. 2% of trips are by bike.

The Dutch take a different approach. They are never satisfied. They could say, "Well we've got 30% of trips by bike. That's great" and then relax. No, the cyclists' union continues to put pressure on local and central government and other bodies and pushes for better and better conditions. They wouldn't have got to 30% in the first place without that kind of approach.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Given that many (most?) of bus trips are local within towns, should buses outside London cease, a lot of those may well be replaced by walking given that a lot of them are by people who don't have a car available. Some without cars may be forced onto bikes even though bike infrastructure is poor. We could probably analyse how people travel in the many towns where buses hardly exist on Sundays. That may give us a clue what would happen.

Obviously the aim of a boycott plan would not be a cessation of buses. I would clearly be hoping for a positive intervention before that happened. But the worst case scenario is already a reality to an extent.

2.3 billion trips sounds like a lot, but given that 7% of trips are by bus including London, what does that give us outside London? 5% or less? That's ridiculously low.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You could argue that people are forced into buses in Oxford, Cambridge, Brighton and some other places because car travel is simply impractical in many cases.

2.3 billion sounds like a lot because it is a lot. It isn't "hardly any" as you suggest.

Also, the idea that many local bus journeys could be replaced by walking is highly questionable. Think about it.... There are people who could walk but they choose to pay (in your eyes) exorbitant bus fares? Of course, quite a number will be concessionary pass holders who are even less likely to be able to walk given their age or disability! That's backed up by the fact that the UK has the highest number of pedestrian journeys - for journeys of less than 5km, 45% are on foot. Do you really think that there's much scope for that to grow? Sorry but that runs contrary to the facts.

And yes, I am saying that bus usage in Brighton, Oxford et al is because car use is becoming increasingly impractical and that it should be recognised that it is a factor (but not the only one) in delivering modal shift. Whether many politicians would be brave enough in tackling it elsewhere, I somehow doubt - see Joe Anderson!
 

JamesRowden

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It is typically British to try and clutch straws by putting the most positive spin on statistics. Wow, 2.3 million people use buses! That's a lot! And look at the big improvements in patronage in Brighton, Reading and Nottingham! Buses must be doing really well!

Same as for cycling. We keep hearing how "cycling is booming" and we are reaping the benefits of cycling success at the Olympics. But look at those statistics again. 2% of trips are by bike.

The Dutch take a different approach. They are never satisfied. They could say, "Well we've got 30% of trips by bike. That's great" and then relax. No, the cyclists' union continues to put pressure on local and central government and other bodies and pushes for better and better conditions. They wouldn't have got to 30% in the first place without that kind of approach.

I think that a problem is related to the general public not considering the benefits of combining exercise and transport. Walking/running/cycling to/from the destination/bus/train is an opportunity to combine exercise and transport rather than just sitting around in a metal box. An interesting fact is that walking a distance at a good pace burns more energy than jogging the same distance.
 

radamfi

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2.3 billion sounds like a lot because it is a lot. It isn't "hardly any" as you suggest.

It's a very low percentage of trips, so it isn't "a lot". I realise you're defending the industry to the death but describing such a low percentage of trips as "a lot" is counter-productive and excuses the industry and government from taking action.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Doesn't seem to correlate well with congestion. More, I think, that social aspirations for driving yourself to work arose through a very particular set of postwar circumstances; which now decreasingly apply. Before WWII barristers, bankers, company directors, hospital consultants and country landowners would never dream of driving themselves to work; they might be chauffer-driven to the local station, but then travelled first class, with a taxi-ride to their destination. In effect, we are seeing this pattern re-asserted in 21st century form. Driving and parking are unpleasant work in themselves - and more so year by year; much more congenial to have someone else do it - especially so for persons of higher business status, now that 'being connected' is seen as synonymous with 'being in charge'.

My experience of Oxford and Cambridge (as a cyclist and a bus user) and of Oxford as a car driver is that they have managed to achieve that balance of bus and cycle priority and successfully restricting car access though this has been done over a length of time. I think there is also a cultural element as well, perhaps aligned to the student population and the general "vibe" and demographic.
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It's a very low percentage of trips, so it isn't "a lot". I realise you're defending the industry to the death but describing such a low percentage of trips as "a lot" is counter-productive and excuses the industry and government from taking action.

Given that 83% of all kms in the EU are by private car (78% in the UK), then it would appear to be a common issue!

IN NO WAY CAN WE SAY THE UK IS PERFECT. Far from it, but to get this back onto the subject in question and the away from the chaff of misquoted statistics, the fact is that we do not spend what we need to and that a change is unlikely in the near future unless Corbyn wins the next election which isn't going to happen.

A move to some quasi regulated environment means nothing without the money to back it up.
 

nerd

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A move to some quasi regulated environment means nothing without the money to back it up.

The money is probably there; in that far the least cost public investment in maximising access to road space for road users, is to provide for those road users to travel by bus or bike. But this runs against the principles of the 80s deregulation; as any operating surplus arising from such an investment boosts the profits of the operators, not the investing public agency. Whereas the operating surpluses arising from light rail investment - which can be massive - go back to the public body making the investment.
 

Mwanesh

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It's a minimum of two buses- the 258 and the 140- from Watford to Heathrow, which is £3 single. The £10 fare is all the way from Harlow to Heathrow.

There are plenty of good examples of price gouging, I'm not sure the Green Line 724 is one of them tbh.

The Greenline 724 is an Express route its priced to discourage short hop when there are local buses.It is the same with Megabus.Plymouth to Bristol costs more than Plymouth to London.The others should use the Falcon to Bristol.
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In any case that journey being £1.50 is just one of the "false positives" you get from a flat fare. In such a system you get winners and losers, though at such a low fare mainly winners.

If TfL didn't have a flat fare for buses, and a ticketing system that can't support anything but that without significant and costly work, it would no doubt cost a fair whack more.
You are forgetting Tfl gets nearly a billion dollar subsidy.You will see in the next few years since they have have been told to be self financing.
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We had cross-subsidy because some routes were profitable and some were loss-making. But we only have this argument because there were (and are) routes that are profitable. There is profit on those routes because the income is higher than the costs. Costs have been driven lower by greater efficiency which in some respects is desirable but other respects directly adversely affect the passenger experience.

But probably the main issue is the income. British bus operators are "lucky" that they is a sufficiently large underclass of people who cannot afford cars and will pay whatever fares are demanded. Those fares are unacceptable to me and many other people, but other people are forced to pay them.

So what would happen if fares were set at more acceptable levels? There would be few, if any, profitable routes. Similarly if costs increased so fast that fares could not be increased to compensate. The issue of cross-subsidy would then become irrelevant.

If you look at the places with world class transport, probably all routes would be considered to be "unprofitable" because the quality is too high and fares would be too low.

We still have cross-subsidy in this country - on the railways. There are routes which are classed as profitable and others not.
What is an acceptable fare then .I lived in London before fares are robbery.in the provincea weekly tickets are cheap.
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Weekly/monthly passes aren't that expensive but compare the perceived marginal cost of using the car with single bus fares. If you are getting a top quality, fast and reliable service then you can better justify higher fares. For example, train travel is getting more popular despite pretty eye-watering fares. At least you are getting a bit of speed for your money. But why pay for a slow and late bus if you've got a car?

I use buses all the time. When outside the UK. For example, I went to the Netherlands last week and travelled more or less non-stop on buses/trams/metros from 9am to 9pm.

I've been campaigning for 20+ years and trying to educate Brits how good things can be. But to no avail. Patronage continues to go down, fares continue to go up and services keep getting cut.
Why dont you run your own bus company with fair fares and we will see.It is eaay to talk.
 

317 forever

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Deregulation and the splitting of NBC, SBG and GMB may have been intended to give more operators a chance. However, the privatisation of these, all other PTCs and numerous municipals, and subsequent takeovers, has basically condensed these into 16 owners. I omit London as deregulation did not apply there. Anyway, these 16 owners are:-
Stagecoach, First, DB-Arriva, Go-Ahead, National Express, Trent Barton, EYMS, Transdev, RATP, Rotala, Comfort DelGro, McGills, West Coast Motors, CentreBus, Uno and Midland Classic.

As the CMA are making it hard for small independents to sell out to the big boys in the area, more could face going to the wall. The number that have done recently could deter many potential newcomers from starting new operations.
 
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