Liverpool Underground Circle Line

[Metroland]

I Then I posted details of new technology in electric buses in Shanghai using supercapcitors. Silence - not what they want to hear. Laughable indeed.

And why not apply that technology to the railed equivalent? While you are at it, develop new track systems that don't need utilities moving?

Even when I quoted a designer of many of the UK trams system who thinks they are outdated. Selective amnesia then sets in.

You have provided no links, or named that person. That person might be just bitter after seeing one of the many tram systems cancelled thanks to red tape and political interference, which means tram systems cost more in the UK - than anywhere else. This is why in Germany, towns of just 50,000 have this kit, while the UK finds it hard to justify a tram for the biggest city in Europe without them - Leeds. That's not my opinion, this was in a government report from the audit office.

Then it gets personal (sign of losing) insults, ridiculous slanted subjective quotes from newspapers, etc. A little objective viewing can go a long way. People here should try it.

I've read back through the thread and all the comments. The only place where it gets personal is when people start to question your qualifications, motives and question what you say.

Which by the way, is not what this thread is about. It is about directing resources from a misconceived tram system to extending an existing underground rapid transit rail system in a particular city

Perhaps the city needs the underground system as well? But why do you feel the need to come on here, when were obviously much below your level, to persuade us of this scheme - which shows little supporting evidence.

Most of us, me included, have no vested interests in any of the schemes or have any political sway or decision making ability in Liverpool. I'm just slightly amused you cannot back up much of what you claim.

 

[90019]

(sign of losing)

Tbh, with the number of times you've said we're losing, and with your flaky arguments, with little actual evidence, I would've said you're the one losing, not us. Added to the apparent lack of knowledge of some things and in some cases replies (*cough* Prius *cough*), I wouldn't realy say you're doing too well

 

[inner-city]

Have you been living under a rock?

The internal combustion engine is a joke. only20-25% of the energy in the tank is converted to motion power. In an 100% electric car 90% plus of th energy in the battery is converted to motion power. Get it?

Please, stop talking out of your arse on a subject you obviously don't know much about.

More insults. Mods please note and deal with offender.

Battery technology has leaped. Lith-Ion and Lith Poly are the way they are looking and supercapacitors (a battery that stores electrical energy, not chemical energy as conventional batteries). Existing batteries are harmful - lead-acid.

How the Prius works

Split a powertrain into three modules:

• petrol motor,
• gearbox (CVT or otherwise),
• diff/wheels It is in sequence,

1, 2, 3. Simple.

The petrol motor need module 2 because of its poor torque delivery
characteristics. An electric motor has modules 1 and 3, eliminating 2, as it
can deliver 100% torque to 3 on start up. Super simple. The best.

A Prius has modules 1 and 3, like an electric motor. In module 1 it has an
electric and petrol motor. In module 1 it has a mechanism to automatically
combine the power/torque of an electric and petrol motor to give the torque
delivery characteristics of an electric motor to the wheels.

Some experimental petrol engines can have modules 1 and 3 only, eliminating 2. This is by automatically varying the valve timing by using solenoid controlled valves. This will deliver the torque to module 3 similar to an electric motor. As with a Prius an auto mechanism is there to present to module 3 torque characteristics like an electric motor.

So, no in-line gearbox, gear cogs, or sliding belts or otherwise in a Prius.

The point behind a Pirus is to:

• Have no to very low emissions in urban conditions
• reduce fuel consumption, and hence emissions
• similar size and performance to average cars.

Ferdinand Porche raced (and won) a sort of hybrid in the early 1900s. They
were petrol motors -> generators -> electric motor -> diff/wheels. Like a
diesel electric train and the new 2009 Chevy Volt. In effect an electric CVT "gearbox", all in-line, where the generator and electric motor replaced a mechanical gearbox/CVT.

The generator/electric motor does the same job as a mechanical gearbox/CVT. A Prius does not use this setup at all.

The Prius doesn't have an "in-line" transmission (gearbox/CVT). The "clever
part" is that is combines the outputs of the electric and petrol motors to
give the characteristics of one electric motor, presenting the
characteristics of an electric motor to the diff/wheels. Module 3 thinks
that its input is an electric motor. The power-splitter merges the power of the electric motor and petrol motor.

Harmful kerbside emissions are near eliminated as the engine is off when the car is stopped.

Hybrids are moving on and the 100% 300 mile range electric car is here. Electric motor in wheel hubs are here. Using existing battery technology a battery/motor setup is no more heavier than an engine, transmission, radiator, exhaust pipe, tank, etc. All all electric Mini is here. If the car is designed around a battery plus motor-in-wheel-hub the air drag is superior as well as internal space. The Mini is a heavy car.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/the_hybrid_mini.php
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

 

[90019]

The point behind a Pirus is to:

• 
  [*]Have no to very low emissions in urban conditions
  [*]reduce fuel consumption, and hence emissions

What happens when not in urban conditions?
And what about the production and disposal of the car in question? The Prius is currently the dirtiest car in the world to produce and dispose of.

Reduce fuel consumption? BS. As I've said, they reduce emissions in low speed traffic, but elsewhere they are far from the most economical cars.


Oh, and you still haven't answered my question from the previous post about this.


Actually, one final thing, just remind me, for an electric car, where does the energy for it come from?

 

[inner-city]

Tbh, with the number of times you've said we're losing, and with your flaky arguments, with little actual evidence, I would've said you're the one losing, not us. Added to the apparent lack of knowledge of some things and in some cases replies (*cough* Prius *cough*), I wouldn't realy say you're doing too well

Read my post on the Prius so you can understand it.

Now the point that rattles you all: Anyone with a small amount of common sense can see that a state-of-the-art eco hybrid tram-like bendy-bus can do exactly the same as any super expensive trams system. Look at my posts - all is there.

My point is not that though, and this thread is not about that either.

 

[Metroland]

The internal combustion engine is a joke. only20-25% of the energy in the tank is converted to motion power. In an 100% electric car 90% plus of th energy in the battery is converted to motion power. Get it?

Yep, but you know full well, or ought to know, total efficiency equation is not that. Electrical energy is merely a vector, a transmission medium from where it is generated - often from fossil fuels from thermal power stations - but I grant you, not always.

The point about trams is however, they take current very often directly from catenary, which is very much more efficient that battery power and certainly hydrogen.

Nevertheless generating capacity and fuel sources have their own problems and differing EROEI values. So electric vehicles are not always as green as they first appear - and yes that includes trams. The problem with road transport is the sheer scale of it, which brings in another angle to sustainability and material use. For example, buses have a lot shorter lifespan than trams.

Please stop saying, its 'all there', it isn't, your still on the back foot.

Buses do not have the perceived image, regeneration benefits, flow, quality and may be more expensive on some flows.

 

[inner-city]

What happens when not in urban conditions?

It is still very eco to the rest of the filth around, sing the electric motor for boost.

The Prius is currently the dirtiest car in the world to produce and dispose of.

Propaganda.

Reduce fuel consumption? BS. As I've said, they reduce emissions in low speed traffic, but elsewhere they are far from the most economical cars.

The overall running average over a year gives it great mpg. There is also the new Prius which is under development, which will be much superior in eco and mpg. Also, no congestion charge and parking charges in some places, which makes it economically viable in a big way.

 

[Metroland]

Hardly, the modal share of cars into central London is less than 10%. Its a tiny proportion of traffic in London, and certainly compared to elsewhere. Its hardly a big boon to owning one, especially give the congestion and ease of driving into central London.

 

[inner-city]

Yep, but you know full well, or ought to know, total efficiency equation is not that. Electrical energy is merely a vector, a transmission medium from where it is generated - often from fossil fuels from thermal power stations - but I grant you, not always.

The UK is going wind and looking heavily into tidal lagoons in the Irish Sea. About 20% of the Irish sea will give the UK and Ireland all its energy. No oil or gas needed. A trial is planned off Swansea.

Please stop saying, its 'all there', it isn't, your still on the back foot.

It is all there.

Buses do not have the perceived image, regeneration benefits, flow, quality and may be more expensive on some flows.

In your eyes. New eco tram-like bendy-buses are a different thing entirely in image.

 

[Metroland]

Propaganda.

That's rich coming from you!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The UK is going wind and looking heavily into tidal lagoons in the Irish Sea. About 20% of the Irish sea will give the UK and Ireland all its energy. No oil or gas needed. A trial is planned off Swansea.

That's not true, its being looked at but perceived to be too expensive.

It is all there.

Your claims have been disproved over and over again by real world data, case studies and more.

In your eyes. New eco tram-like bendy-buses are a different thing entirely in image.

Hmn, see York.

Are you mentally retarded or something? How long are you going to keep coming out with all these points, with the flakiest of evidence? Can't you understand its not just me that says these things and I can back these things up - unlike you?

I think this thread has run its course personally.

 

[inner-city]

And why not apply that technology to the railed equivalent? While you are at it, develop new track systems that don't need utilities moving?

If you read the post, I gave details of rail adaption. They can put the supercapacitors in large banks on the tracksisde.

You have provided no links, or named that person.

I do not intend to.

That person might be just bitter after seeing one of the many tram systems cancelled

He is honest, not bitter.

Perhaps the city needs the underground system as well? But why do you feel the need to come on here, when were obviously much below your level, to persuade us of this scheme - which shows little supporting evidence.

It it clear most of you can't see further than your pet rail schemes.

I'm just slightly amused you cannot back up much of what you claim.

It have come to conclusion you are lunatic. Not an insult but a clear observation. You have no common sense and revert to the timeless Internet ploy of when losing to get the other to justify, even when something is so obvious and simple. My conclusion about you was cemented when you said Leeds is the biggest city in Europe. I rest my case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's not true, its being looked at but perceived to be too expensive.

It is being looked at and they are serious. The Mersey barrage is being put on hold until the findings are released.

<I'll have to snip the rest of you inane babble>

 

[tbtc]

Now the point that rattles you all: Anyone with a small amount of common sense can see that a state-of-the-art eco hybrid tram-like bendy-bus can do exactly the same as any super expensive trams system. Look at my posts - all is there

"tram like"? So, it's not a "bendy bus" it's a "pretendy bus"?

You've fallen for the trap of thinking that the gadgetry that goes with "ftr"s is somehow unique. You could have Leyland Nationals running with real time information and smart card technology in guided bus lanes with conductors - the technology isn't unique to "pretendy buses". As I've tried to explain a few times, we have most of these features already elsewhere in the UK.

Just because it's designed to look like a tram doesn't mean it's light years ahead of what can be done (and what *is* done) on other buses.

Out of interest, given your ignorance and dismissive attitude of everything outside of London, why the obsession about some old tunnels underneath Liverpool? (and no mention of the fact that these tunnels would cost millions to upgrade to 2008 standards of disability access, health & safety, feasibility studies, cost benefit analysis etc etc?)

 

[Metroland]

If you read the post, I gave details of rail adaption. They can put the supercapacitors in large banks on the tracksisde.



I do not intend to.



He is honest, not bitter.



It it clear most of you can't see further than your pet rail schemes.



It have come to conclusion you are lunatic. Not an insult but a clear observation. You have no common sense and revert to the timeless Internet ploy of when losing to get the other to justify, even when something is so obvious and simple. My conclusion about you was cemented when you said Leeds is the biggest city in Europe. I rest my case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It is being looked at and they are serious. The Mersey barrage is being put on hold until the findings are released.

<I'll have to snip the rest of you inane babble>

No, I am asking you, and have asked you time and time and time again to back up your data or what you say and use examples. What you say, counts for nothing, absolutely nothing without that. Why can you not see this?

You say buses are better, I say trams are better in some circumstances.

Difference is, I back up what I say and don't believe my own hype. I think that makes you the lunatic personally.

No back it up, or shut up.

 

[inner-city]

Moderators and administrators will do what they believe to be best, NOT act as your henchmen.

I did not say act as my henchmen. I just said deal with the problem at the source - which is the usual way. Locking a thread means they won.

 

[Mojo]

Now the point that rattles you all: Anyone with a small amount of common sense can see that a state-of-the-art eco hybrid tram-like bendy-bus can do exactly the same as any super expensive trams system. Look at my posts - all is there.

No it's not.

I challenge you to provide evidence that:
a) Trams are more expensive
b) "State-of-the-art" buses can do everything that trams can do

Here is my evidence:
a) "The cost per passenger mile for trams is 2.4p; for buses, it varies from 3.5 to 6.5p" (Hansard)
and
"Professor Richard Knowles of the University of Salford also told the annual conference of the Royal Geographical Society last week that when used at capacity, light rail is cheaper to run per passenger kilometre than buses"

b) Developers do not believe that buses add value to their developments as they merely serve them rather than create regeneration (Thames Gateway)
and
Bus improvement schemes, on average create a modal shift of 6% whereas tram schemes create anything between 17% and 50%
and
Cyclists and pedestrians prefer trams to buses as their route is predictable
and
Buses are buses. The pictures of buses you have provided still look like buses to me. As a car driver, there is no way that I would use them.

 

[inner-city]

This Metroland tram obsessed lunatic. I will just ignore him. There is no common sense from the man - or child.

I don't see his inane babbling posts now - fabulous.

 

[Metroland]

I believe telling a moderator how to moderate is a ban. And enough of the insults please.

 

[Mojo]

I did not say act as my henchmen. I just said deal with the problem at the source - which is the usual way. Locking a thread means they won.

On other forums when talking about trams and buses you have suggested that some people get sexual satisfaction from Trams. Personal insults stop here.

 

[inner-city]

Any more telling a moderator how to moderate will result in you receiving a warning. You are not blameless in throwing insults about either.

A fair minded man eh!!! Right down the middle I see. A warning about what? Am I upsetting the spotters clique? Seems like. Show me where I have insulted?

 

[Metroland]

This Metroland tram obsessed lunatic. I will just ignore him. There is no common sense from the man - or child.

You just ignore any argument with doesn't chime your way. I'm quite prepared to concede and warm to any points made, but you simply don't have the intellectual wit to present any coherent argument.

FACT: Trams have a better flow than buses.
FACT: Trams can be cheaper in some circumstances
FACT: Trams have a better modal shift
FACT: Trams have regeneration benefits, there is little evidence that buses do.
FACT: Trams are more energy efficient

All backed up in previous posts. Now address the points, else shut up.

 

[inner-city]

On other forums when talking about trams and buses you have suggested that some people get sexual satisfaction from Trams. Personal insults stop here.

I have only ever been one other and never said that. Stop making things up. Yes tell them to stop it. You should have nipped it in the bud.

 

[Metroland]

I think its time the nurse took you away for your medication don't you? You obviously lost this one, now you are having a go at the moderators because throwing your toys out the pram didn't work. Me? I can't be arsed to debate any more with someone so fond of their opinion, its a waste of my energy.

 

[inner-city]

Just because it's designed to look like a tram doesn't mean it's light years ahead of what can be done (and what *is* done) on other buses.

Lower sill, smoother and better image. The prime point here is dismissing eco tram-like bendy-buses.

Out of interest, given your ignorance

I find you very ignorant.

 

[90019]

It is still very eco to the rest of the filth around, sing the electric motor for boost.

uh huh, so that's why many diesels are more environmentally friendly?

Propaganda.

I find it ironic that you can say something factual is propaganda whilst whilst using your current "arguments".

The overall running average over a year gives it great mpg. There is also the new Prius which is under development, which will be much superior in eco and mpg. Also, no congestion charge and parking charges in some places, which makes it economically viable in a big way.

Ignoring production and disposal again are we?
I don't deny that a new prius may work better, but im not talking about that, I'm talking about the current one, which you're so keen to sing the praises of. If it's so wonderful, explain why the area where the materials for the batteries are mined are wasteland because of acid rain and air pollution? And how can you say it's environmentally friendly when these ,materials are then shipped all around the world in their production?

If you really want to be green, buy an old diesel car and run it on 2nd hand vegetable oil, cutting out the production costs of building a new car, and also the environmental cost of the diesel.
But of course, I forgot, you don't like old diesels.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It it clear most of you can't see further than your pet rail schemes.

And you obviously can't see past your pet buses

 

[inner-city]

To all to whine on about trams vs bendy buses. Sorry, you are all wrong. stare-of the-art eco bendy buses do exactly the same as trams. - and do it far cheaper.

This thread is not about this trams vs bendy-buses. So set up another thread for than. I will just for that.

 

[90019]

To all to whine on about trams vs bendy buses. Sorry, you are all wrong.

Just to point out: you're the one who's been doing most of that arguing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have only ever been one other and never said that. Stop making things up. Yes tell them to stop it. You should have nipped it in the bud.

What's that, 3 times you've told them how to moderate now?
I'm surprised you haven't been banned yet for telling them how to do their job.

 

[inner-city]

Merseyrail network is creaking, says transport chief

Oct 24 2008 by Ben Schofield, Liverpool Daily Post

Trains network is creaking, says transport chief

MERSEYRAIL trains are running so close to capacity the network is “creaking”, the region’s transport chief said.

But on the buses, said Neil Scales, Merseytravel’s chief executive, passenger numbers were worringly low.


This clearly shows the success of Merseyrail. This indicates where money should be directed for expansion - Merseyrail, not trams.

 

[dan_atki]

I think this thread has run its course personally.

I agree - locked. inner-city, if you wish to find out where you have insulted people in this thread, read through - it's all there... in post #95 you state

Please keep stupid political babbles off this forum. Go to alt.tory.idiots. They will accommodate you.

and post #113:

You are a lost case.

I do not need to justify any further. I also do not appreciate people telling me to 'deal with someone'. If you want an insulting post to be edited or removed, please use the report post button on the left rather than adding fuel to the fire.

This thread has lost all meaning and is going around in circles.

 

[yorkie]

A fair minded man eh!!! Right down the middle I see. A warning about what? Am I upsetting the spotters clique? Seems like. Show me where I have insulted?

You used the term "train spotter" as an insult very early in this thread, and you've now done it again. And it has nothing to do with train spotters. I don't see why as a group they'd be pro-tram, but as individuals they are all entitled to an opinion, but I'm not aware of any spotters expressing opinions on this thread. This isn't a train spotters site (although I'm aware we do have a few on here), there are other sites (e.g. LocoScene) that serve that purpose, please don't make the mistake that a general interest forum is a forum for spotters - it isn't.