Gatwick Express validity on "Not Valid on HS1" ticket

[jacksonbang]

There are ongoing training & rudeness issues at the Victoria platform 13/14 gateline. Many people are affected by it.

.

This is where my confusion lies - huge amounts of money spent of rebranding and refurbishing GX but the relatively small number of staff that represent the front-end of the TOC operation are allowed to continue acting in this way.

 

[Clip]

This is where my confusion lies - huge amounts of money spent of rebranding and refurbishing GX but the relatively small number of staff that represent the front-end of the TOC operation are allowed to continue acting in this way.

I have an ex member of staff who went for a duty managers position with Southern a while back and he thought he was saying all the right things and one of the interviewers said that they appeared to be very hands on and raised his eyebrows when saying this and this guy knew that he wouldnt get the job because thats not what they were looking for.

 

[gray1404]

The time has come for all TL, GX,GN and SN services to be run and advertised (and staff uniforms) as GTR. End all this nonsense.

 

[infobleep]

The time has come for all TL, GX,GN and SN services to be run and advertised (and staff uniforms) as GTR. End all this nonsense.

The cynic in me thinks they would rather get rid of the staff than do that.


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I'm surprised GTR don't simply get restrictions changed so other tickets not valid on Gatwick Express. They can ask the fare setters to change it. The DfT won't complain if they did.

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[bb21]

The time has come for all TL, GX,GN and SN services to be run and advertised (and staff uniforms) as GTR. End all this nonsense.

They should, but some on here will not like it as many of the cheaper fares, such as those Thameslink Only or Southern Only ones, will likely be removed.

 

[jacksonbang]

I'm surprised GTR don't simply get restrictions changed so other tickets not valid on Gatwick Express. They can ask the fare setters to change it. The DfT won't complain if they did.

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I do wonder that but always assumed, wrongly perhaps, it was to do with GX needing the extra custom and thus route relevant settlement cut from other TOCs.

 

[Deerfold]

The world is never going to be perfect. It's called "picking your fights". Recognising when something is a lost cause and admitting defeat is a valuable trait. There is no support for these Gat Ex issues, not from anyone who can really make a difference, so I am doubtful what you hope to achieve will ever be possible.

Fighting over something like this when there are far more worthy cases to spend the effort on is totally pointless, and completely missing the point imo.

A lot of the fights over GX ticketing are quite technical and there is disagreement about their validity. GX clearly do not mean Southern-only or Not Gatwick Express tickets to be valid and have tried to put that on tickets - the disagreement is about whether they are allowed to.

There is no argument here about the validity of the ticket - there is no documentation to say it is not valid, Gatwick Express documentation does not say it is not valid, just their staff.

I'd be far more willing to argue about this case than most of the others.

 

[Clip]

They should, but some on here will not like it as many of the cheaper fares, such as those Thameslink Only or Southern Only ones, will likely be removed.

Quite and as has been said on many pages on this forum you really do have to pick the battles for what you want.

I can certainly see GN being hived off the whole franchise when the time comes as it really doesnt sit right with the whole thing at the moment.

 

[bb21]

There is no argument here about the validity of the ticket - there is no documentation to say it is not valid, Gatwick Express documentation does not say it is not valid, just their staff.

I'd be far more willing to argue about this case than most of the others.

I agree there is no dispute over the validity in this case.

The question is whether getting in a dispute is worth it, ie. potentially missing other trains too and ending up even later. Some might, but I would imagine most people would rather get the one 5 minutes behind than getting into such a discussion. Life is too short for things like this when there is no real difference whether one gets that train or not.

 

[Failed Unit]

Are the gat-ex seats the same type as the Thameslink (soon to be great northern 387s)

If the are I think I would rather wait 2 minutes for the next southern service for a more comfortable seat. (Along with no arguments)

I think they are killing off Gatwick express by stealth- ie making no one want to use it.

 

[Clip]

Are the gat-ex seats the same type as the Thameslink (soon to be great northern 387s)

If the are I think I would rather wait 2 minutes for the next southern service for a more comfortable seat. (Along with no arguments)

I think they are killing off Gatwick express by stealth- ie making no one want to use it.

Ive not been on them yet but I would imagine theyd be the same to keep costs down when building and maintaining them.

Im not sure about killing it off either - it has a good selling point for tourists and those that know no different and must pull in some much needed extra coin - especially if they sell tickets on flights(do they do that or is it just the oysters? not flown from Gatwick for a while now)

 

[furlong]

The principle is very simple. By freely entering into the franchise agreement the operator agreed always to accept every valid ticket on its services. (Clearly it is responsible for training its staff to deliver that obligation.)

TSA 10-1 THE OBLIGATION OF THE OPERATORS TO CARRY PASSENGERS
(1) Fares in respect of which the Operators are bound
An Operator is bound to carry on its trains each Purchaser of a Fare, in accordance with its terms, for the whole or any part of the journey for which the Fare entitles him to use those trains.

Every breach, however minor, should be reported to the DfT so it can remind the operator of its obligations and take formal action against the company if it detects systemic failures or a wilful disregard of its obligations.

 

[Merseysider]

I think they are killing off Gatwick express by stealth- ie making no one want to use it.

Good!

 

[Failed Unit]

I know it is slightly off topic, but I may see if I get challenged with a Welwyn garden city - Gatwick airport off-peak return.

When looking this up the booking engine had a station "Gatwick thameslink"? (East coast if anyone want to replicate it) couldn't get any fares with it.

 

[tsr]

I think they are killing off Gatwick express by stealth- ie making no one want to use it.

Brand new and fully-branded rolling stock, a new entrance foyer and First Class lounge (not actually been in it yet, so not sure what it's like) at Gatwick Airport, new branding and signage, new OBSs (for the time being)... that's a pretty extensive "last hurrah"! I may not always support the segregation of GX services in various ways, but trust me, it's not being killed off.

 

[Hadders]

Didn't the airport kick off big time when the DfT merged the GX franchise with Southern? The compromise was what we have now - ie Gatwick Express branded services.

A dedicated airport shuttle is very important to Gatwick Airport, the problem is the rail line that runs to Gatwick is absolutely full.

 

[yorkie]

Didn't the airport kick off big time when the DfT merged the GX franchise with Southern? The compromise was what we have now - ie Gatwick Express branded services.

A dedicated airport shuttle is very important to Gatwick Airport, the problem is the rail line that runs to Gatwick is absolutely full.

Yes ( see http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...oard of airline representatives in the uk.pdf ) the aviation industry claims that "airport passengers" are a "distinct market"; the suggestion is that they travel to Victoria and seemingly don't wish to make connections at East Croydon/Clapham Junction, and trains which serve airports should not call at "major interchange stations" because of luggage in particular. They claim that "intermediate stops on an Airport Express are damaging."

I think they're deluded or lying.

I don't care if they make the slower trains non-stop; what I do care about is that they should be accepting all valid tickets on it, and that the company must adhere to the Ticketing Settlement Agreement (they should not attempt to create loopholes that, in their opinion, bypass the terms of the TSA)

 

[paul1609]

I think that the Airport Industry is right, a high proportion of the passenger flows at Gatwick Airport originate outside the UK and the destination is undoubtably Central London. This is quite different to say Manchester Airport or any other regional airport I can think of in the UK and I use most of them at one time or another. East Croydon is adequately served by Thameslink and the Southern stopping trains.
I also think Yorkie is right and that the Express services shouldn't command a premium fare, this would also transfer longer distance passengers to the Express services freeing up space on the overcrowded stopping services. The consequence of this however would be that Southern would be paying a reduced premium to the DFT. My view is that this loss of revenue would be best recovered by a review of the whole nationwide ticketing scheme and particularly the ECML and the WCML where for largely political reasons service frequencies have been specified that are way in excess of what normal demand would warrant. This supply can only be filled by offering what are obviously ridiculously cheap advanced tickets that nowhere near meet their costs. The lines only appear to be anywhere near profitable because costs are unfairly skewed on to the local operators and covered by huge subsidies to operators like Northern. I suspect that Yorkie wouldnt agree with this part!

 

[Hadders]

My view is that this loss of revenue would be best recovered by a review of the whole nationwide ticketing scheme and particularly the ECML and the WCML where for largely political reasons service frequencies have been specified that are way in excess of what normal demand would warrant. This supply can only be filled by offering what are obviously ridiculously cheap advanced tickets that nowhere near meet their costs. The lines only appear to be anywhere near profitable because costs are unfairly skewed on to the local operators and covered by huge subsidies to operators like Northern. I suspect that Yorkie wouldnt agree with this part!

WCML and ECML services don't exactly carry around fresh air.

As for ridiculously cheap fares please can you define ridiculous? Have you seen the stealth rises recently. How about a review of Anytime fares such as London - Manchester at an eye watering £321. Makes the Gatwick Express premium fares look quite reasonable.

 

[yorkie]

That argument has been made before; if it's to be debated again we'll have to split the thread.

(When going off on a tangent or making a comparison with a completely different scenario, the best thing to do is create a new thread, as that is much easier than me having to split it.)

 

[paul1609]

I think it fair also to point out that there have been numerous threads discussing ticket availability on the brands managed by Govia Thameslink Railways on behalf of the DFT. Unless the revenue gap that I think everybody agrees would result in the withdrawal of the premium fares can be plugged i think it unlikely that there will be any change. If any discussion on how that might be achieved is to be moderated out I don't really see that there is any point discussing the issue again.

 

[infobleep]

The principle is very simple. By freely entering into the franchise agreement the operator agreed always to accept every valid ticket on its services. (Clearly it is responsible for training its staff to deliver that obligation.)



Every breach, however minor, should be reported to the DfT so it can remind the operator of its obligations and take formal action against the company if it detects systemic failures or a wilful disregard of its obligations.

One slight problem. The DfT don't seem to want to take action against this company.

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[jon0844]

Ive not been on them yet but I would imagine theyd be the same to keep costs down when building and maintaining them.

Im not sure about killing it off either - it has a good selling point for tourists and those that know no different and must pull in some much needed extra coin - especially if they sell tickets on flights(do they do that or is it just the oysters? not flown from Gatwick for a while now)

I flew back to Gatwick yesterday on Easyjet, and oh yes, they sell tickets onboard. It's in the magazine and they also come down asking if anyone wants them (not that anyone did).

They only sell Gatwick Express tickets to London, or Thameslink tickets to Brighton.

No other choices.

They will get a cut (maybe a travel agency commission, which is 6%?) or perhaps some other incentive?

 

[jacksonbang]

Interesting. One of the largest low cost airlines sells the tickets for possibly the most expensive UK railway company. Are they discounted? I would be so annoyed to get to the station and see the other cheaper options, although I accept it removes the Gatwick Airport onward journey stress to an extent.

 

[jon0844]

Interesting. One of the largest low cost airlines sells the tickets for possibly the most expensive UK railway company. Are they discounted? I would be so annoyed to get to the station and see the other cheaper options, although I accept it removes the Gatwick Airport onward journey stress to an extent.

So no discounts. Only savings on the coach option from Gatwick, or weekend tickets on Thameslink (presumably just super off-peak versions).

I am sure they'll be given a nice little kickback, although as I said - nobody bought tickets.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Yes, very good thread. It brings us back to whether trying to collect a 'premium fare' for a 'not very premium service' is really worth the candle, especially at present.... But if that's what people want, would not another option simply to move to an on-train supplement, eg. £3 per journey, bit like the Dutch do on their High Speed service Breda-Rotterdam-Amsterdam, ie. all tickets valid but you to pay the conductor if you want to use it.

 

[InFoTan]

They removed Gatwick's entry under the 'next fastest train to' section, so only the slower non-stop trains are shown now. Any passenger asking for the next train to the airport is not particularly likely to be given an honest answer, as you know very well from your own experiences!

The message from GTR is very clear: they want people to take the trains branded "Express", which are usually booked to be slower, and they want people to pay what they call a "premium fare" for it.

I remember (a long time ago) when the Gatwick Express service was first started and they did this same trick, and then when it became a separate franchise they started showing Gatwick as a destination on all the trains that stop there. So now they are back to pretending that normal "fast" trains don't stop at Gatwick. Poor show!

 

[JamesRowden]

Yes, very good thread. It brings us back to whether trying to collect a 'premium fare' for a 'not very premium service' is really worth the candle, especially at present.... But if that's what people want, would not another option simply to move to an on-train supplement, eg. £3 per journey, bit like the Dutch do on their High Speed service Breda-Rotterdam-Amsterdam, ie. all tickets valid but you to pay the conductor if you want to use it.

The Sussex Route Study (link) concludes that substantially more services are required to run off-peak through Gatwick from London towards to the coast by 2043. Figure 43 of the document suggests that this could be a total off-peak service of 24tph formed of:

• 2tph Thameslink to Horsham
• 2tph London Victoria to Bognor Regis and Portsmouth/Southampton (splitting at Horsham)
• 1tph London Bridge to Bognor Regis and Chichester via Horsham (splitting at Barnham)
• 3tph London Victoria to Haywards Heath
• 1tph London Victoria to Hove
• 1tph London Bridge to Hove
• 2tph London Victoria Littlehampton via Hove
• 1tph London Bridge to Littlehampton via Hove
• 4tph London Victoria to Brighton
• 4tph Thameslink to Brighton
• 1tph London Victoria to Seaford and Eastbourne (splitting at Lewes)
• 1tph London Victoria to Hastings
• 1tph London Bridge to Eastbourne

Amongst this there seems to be no point in running an express shuttle between London Victoria and Gatwick unless a fair number of services towards the coast run non-stop through Gatwick.

The service level shown would require upgrades to the Brighton Mainline, but I think that those upgrades would be required anyway to meet peak capacity requirements.

 

[infobleep]

The Sussex Route Study (link) concludes that substantially more services are required to run off-peak through Gatwick from London towards to the coast by 2043. Figure 43 of the document suggests that this could be a total off-peak service of 24tph formed of:

• 2tph Thameslink to Horsham
• 2tph London Victoria to Bognor Regis and Portsmouth/Southampton (splitting at Horsham)
• 1tph London Bridge to Bognor Regis and Chichester via Horsham (splitting at Barnham)
• 3tph London Victoria to Haywards Heath
• 1tph London Victoria to Hove
• 1tph London Bridge to Hove
• 2tph London Victoria Littlehampton via Hove
• 1tph London Bridge to Littlehampton via Hove
• 4tph London Victoria to Brighton
• 4tph Thameslink to Brighton
• 1tph London Victoria to Seaford and Eastbourne (splitting at Lewes)
• 1tph London Victoria to Hastings
• 1tph London Bridge to Eastbourne

Amongst this there seems to be no point in running an express shuttle between London Victoria and Gatwick unless a fair number of services towards the coast run non-stop through Gatwick.

The service level shown would require upgrades to the Brighton Mainline, but I think that those upgrades would be required anyway to meet peak capacity requirements.

They could run some of those as Gatwick Express services though. Like they do for some of the services to Brighton. Whether one agrees with then doing that is another matter of course.

However it doesn't matter if one doesn't agree with it, as long as the DfT are happy.

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[paul1609]

The Sussex Route Study (link) concludes that substantially more services are required to run off-peak through Gatwick from London towards to the coast by 2043. Figure 43 of the document suggests that this could be a total off-peak service of 24tph formed of:

• 2tph Thameslink to Horsham
• 2tph London Victoria to Bognor Regis and Portsmouth/Southampton (splitting at Horsham)
• 1tph London Bridge to Bognor Regis and Chichester via Horsham (splitting at Barnham)
• 3tph London Victoria to Haywards Heath
• 1tph London Victoria to Hove
• 1tph London Bridge to Hove
• 2tph London Victoria Littlehampton via Hove
• 1tph London Bridge to Littlehampton via Hove
• 4tph London Victoria to Brighton
• 4tph Thameslink to Brighton
• 1tph London Victoria to Seaford and Eastbourne (splitting at Lewes)
• 1tph London Victoria to Hastings
• 1tph London Bridge to Eastbourne

Amongst this there seems to be no point in running an express shuttle between London Victoria and Gatwick unless a fair number of services towards the coast run non-stop through Gatwick.

The service level shown would require upgrades to the Brighton Mainline, but I think that those upgrades would be required anyway to meet peak capacity requirements.

That would be quite some upgrade required 19tph over the 2 track Ouse viaduct/ Balcombe tunnel section? Perhaps ATO with a future Govia franchise struggling with the introduction of No Driver Operation? Or a BML2/ HS4 scheme?