EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

Nissan have recently announced huge investment in their UK car plant..

Which has been done to death r/e what "encouraged" them to stay. Would be very surprised if that "encouragement" didn't involve taxpayer's money down the line.

 

[northwichcat]

And the statistics show the economically the country is doing OK.

Really?

George Osborne failed to clear the deficit at his target rate and kept talking about a 'budget surplus' when he wasn't on target to achieve that in 20 years never mind in 5 years.

While, in 2007 the £ to Euro rate was 1.48. We all know countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy have brought down the value of the Euro but despite that the current £ to Euro rate is only 1.13 which means our economy is performing more poorly in comparison to the Euro zone and we don't have the excuse of blaming the poor value on another country.

 

[Howardh]

Now a Tory mp Leader has resigned, because he was 'stopped from representing his constituents'. Here.

Is it because he thinks we're going too soft/hard or that they won't/can't tell us?
Interesting by-election, don't think he's standing as an independent, so will the Libdems throw the kitchen sink at it? Can't win of course, Tories have too much of a majority and it's a "leave" seat. But a substantial dip in majority? (Could also increase their majority of course).

 

[J-2739]

Probably trying to scare?

The Libdems always have someone voting for them, so they might stay afloat as a bystander for a while.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Any concern that is essentially "immigrants are stealing all our money/jobs" is not a legitimate concern. The fact that politicians have been too lily-livered to stand up and say they are not legitimate concerns- and I include Labour politicians in this as much as Conservative ones- means that these xenophobic ideas fester away in the national psyche. We've had 25 years of people being indulged in their racism- Prime Minister Cameron referred to asylum seekers as a "swarm"- and this is where we are.

Why is not a "legitimate concern"? Surely if you have evidence that your hourly rate has dropped or you've lost your job because of immigration then you have every right to feel aggrieved over rising levels of immigration. These people are not racist and you and others are completely wrong to label them as that, as many members of my own party. It's simply the case that they are worried for their futures and no one apart from UKIP is listening.
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Really?

George Osborne failed to clear the deficit at his target rate and kept talking about a 'budget surplus' when he wasn't on target to achieve that in 20 years never mind in 5 years.

While, in 2007 the £ to Euro rate was 1.48. We all know countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy have brought down the value of the Euro but despite that the current £ to Euro rate is only 1.13 which means our economy is performing more poorly in comparison to the Euro zone and we don't have the excuse of blaming the poor value on another country.

Forget about George's plan to clear the deficit, the issue here is how the economy has been performing since the Brexit vote. And whilst I've already said that the way Sterling has been performing is a large concern overall the economy is still growing which is contrary to what both Mark Carney and George Osborne said would happen.

 

[northwichcat]

Why is not a "legitimate concern"? Surely if you have evidence that your hourly rate has dropped or you've lost your job because of immigration then you have every right to feel aggrieved over rising levels of immigration. These people are not racist and you and others are completely wrong to label them as that, as many members of my own party. It's simply the case that they are worried for their futures and no one apart from UKIP is listening.

Is the issue that European immigrants are taking jobs or that immigrants are taking jobs? In my local area most immigrants seem to be from outside the EU - Africa, Asia, Latin America so making it harder for EU nationals to live and work in Britain won't necessarily change what proportion of jobs are taken by immigrants much.

It also won't affect how many jobs which could be done by British people get done by Indian call centres to save money. I found with Vodafone the only way you get put through to a British person is if you say you want to cancel your contract then you get put through to a British salesperson trying to sell you a better deal!

There's plenty of EU students in the UK but the universities like them as they are allowed to charge EU students higher fees than British ones and when we leave the EU it will probably be easier for universities to charge EU students even higher fees, making them even more attractive.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Don't put words in my mouth.

And yes, I think it is desperately sad that people in the lowest socio-economic groups and that people with the lowest levels of education were most likely to vote Leave. I think it is desperately sad that they were lied to, over and over again. I think it is desperately sad that they've been told to blame the Polish for all their life's woes.

I was under the impression that you were labeling those people as being stupid, especially given that you also said this.

A depressingly significant minority of them are racist, xenophobic and idiots. Nothing I have seen before or after the vote in June has persuaded me that people voted Leave for any reasons other than racism, xenophobia or downright stupidity.

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Is the issue that European immigrants are taking jobs or that immigrants are taking jobs? In my local area most immigrants seem to be from outside the EU - Africa, Asia, Latin America so making it harder for EU nationals to live and work in Britain won't necessarily change what proportion of jobs are taken by immigrants much.

It also won't affect how many jobs which could be done by British people get done by Indian call centres to save money. I found with Vodafone the only way you get put through to a British person is if you say you want to cancel your contract then you get put through to a British salesperson trying to sell you a better deal!

In all fairness I would say its a bit of both but from what I've seen the issues that people tend to have are people coming over from Central and Eastern with a trade and who are then under cutting British people. Jeremy Corbyn is not interested in these people and that's what drives me mad as he is not prepared to learn lessons from the referendum. He is essentially ignoring his traditional Labour voters.
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Which has been done to death r/e what "encouraged" them to stay. Would be very surprised if that "encouragement" didn't involve taxpayer's money down the line.

Yes I suspect that may well be the case but lets not forget that's what got Nissan to the North East in the first place.

 

[radamfi]

people tend to have are people coming over from Central and Eastern with a trade and who are then under cutting British people.

Just because these people are "British", they should have priority over immigrants? Forget about nationality. There is no such thing as nationality. Just ask Mrs May.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Just because these people are "British", they should have priority over immigrants? Forget about nationality. There is no such thing as nationality. Just ask Mrs May.

My point is there needs to be a level playing field in terms of wages so that British people are not priced out of the market.

 

[radamfi]

My point is there needs to be a level playing field in terms of wages so that British people are not priced out of the market.

You mean by increasing the minimum wage? But how would this apply to self-employed tradesmen?

 

[anme]

My point is there needs to be a level playing field in terms of wages so that British people are not priced out of the market.

How would you achieve this? Should the government set wages, or hourly prices for self employed tradespeople? Maybe the problem is a lack of patriotism when you hire a plumber - are you prepared to pay more for someone British? If not, you *are* the problem.

BTW, have you heard of the minimum wage?

 

[radamfi]

Listen to this idiot phoning up Iain Lee last night, pronouncing that "They've cancelled Brexit!"

https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZXaeTZWAcwmt98SJupCzemC0npxyTF42Pk

 

[Groningen]

Trump and Putin to help?!John should apply with PM May for a job.

 

[RichmondCommu]

How would you achieve this? Should the government set wages, or hourly prices for self employed tradespeople? Maybe the problem is a lack of patriotism when you hire a plumber - are you prepared to pay more for someone British? If not, you *are* the problem.

BTW, have you heard of the minimum wage?

That's for the Government to sort out, not me. And yes I have heard about the minimum wage, after all it has been around for awhile. If the previous Governments had addressed the issues of immigration properly than we wouldn't have had this problem.
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You mean by increasing the minimum wage? But how would this apply to self-employed tradesmen?

What would you like to see the Government do if you were a self employed plumber?

 

[radamfi]

That's for the Government to sort out, not me. And yes I have heard about the minimum wage, after all it has been around for awhile. If the previous Governments had addressed the issues of immigration properly than we wouldn't have had this problem.

You are making very worrying comments about immigration. Which immigrants shouldn't have been allowed in? Central/eastern Europeans? South Asian? Caribbean? You could argue that South Asians have "driven down wages".

Most of the population increase since the war is down to natural growth, not immigration. Is that kind of population growth more ethical than growth through immigration?

What would you like to see the Government do if you were a self employed plumber?

If you are self-employed then you are a business in a free market. If they want minimum wage protection then they should get a job.

 

[miami]

Probably trying to scare?

The Libdems always have someone voting for them, so they might stay afloat as a bystander for a while.

They've got no chance in Sleaford, it's a safe tory seat and a brexit constituency on the order of 2:1. Tories will put up a pro-brexit mp and they'll walk in.

However Richmond Park has a good chance of producing a lib dem upset. The constituency is remain, where Goldsmith is massively leave. The Greens have pulled out, Labour is in a mess, it's a two-horse race between an anti-heathrow anti-brexit lib dem, and an anti-heathrow pro-brexit "independent-but-really-tory".

 

[RichmondCommu]

If you are self-employed then you are a business in a free market. If they want minimum wage protection then they should get a job.

Would you be prepared to repeat that to a plumber face to face?
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You are making very worrying comments about immigration. Which immigrants shouldn't have been allowed in? Central/eastern Europeans? South Asian? Caribbean? You could argue that South Asians have "driven down wages".

Most of the population increase since the war is down to natural growth, not immigration. Is that kind of population growth more ethical than growth through immigration?

It's not about not "allowing people in" and all about controlling immigration and listening to people who've been negatively effected by immigration, as opposed to passing them off as being racist and / or stupid.

 

[radamfi]

Would you be prepared to repeat that to a plumber face to face?

By being self-employed, you waive your employment rights so of course I would tell him that. What's wrong with someone trying to pinch someone else's work by undercutting? That's business. Businesses undercut each other all the time.

It's not about not "allowing people in" and all about controlling immigration and listening to people who've been negatively effected by immigration, as opposed to passing them off as being racist and / or stupid.

But they are being racist and stupid. Just because people come from a different country doesn't make them second class human beings.

If you "listen" to these "people", there would be no immigration ever again.

 

[Harbornite]

This incident highlights the calibre of some brexiters. They really aren't giving their cause a good name...

A US sports presenter has been flooded with online abuse after being mistaken for Brexit campaigner Gina Miller.
Texas-based namesake Gina Miller was initially bemused to be branded a traitor who had "ruined our democracy".
She said she received several hundreds of messages, including death threats, adding: "It was absolutely vitriolic".
It came after the High Court ruled that Theresa May must seek Parliamentary approval before invoking Article 50 to start formal EU exit negotiations.

London's Gina Miller, an investment manager and philanthropist, was the lead claimant in the case and was widely photographed and quoted in media coverage of the decision.

The US-based Ms Miller said she first became aware of the London investment manager's legal moves in October, after a few people mixed up the two women's Twitter addresses.
But she said Thursday's "crazy" Brexit backlash took her completely by surprise.
"On Twitter, on Facebook - there were some f-bombs, lots of people saying I was a traitor. 'You're ruining our democracy', 'F-off and move to France' - and much more'.
She added: "I even had an email. In the subject box it said: 'I hope you die, I sincerely hope you get cancer and die'."

Having visited the UK on previous occasions, Ms Miller said: "It was in overwhelming contrast to the very proper, polite British behaviour I'd seen before."

The London-based Ms Miller, 51, who was born in Guyana but grew up in Britain, has not answered those critics who have targeted her on social media.
But speaking outside the High Court on Thursday, she said she was aware of being called a "black widow spider" and had suffered abuse from those in favour of leaving the EU.
She said: "That nickname is wrong on so many levels. But I do not and will not let other people bring me down. I believe that level of abuse means I am doing something right for investors."
She did not respond to the BBC's request for comment.
The American Gina Miller, who is also a multi-media consultant with Smith Geiger, a market research and strategy group, said: "If I were counselling her, I'd suggest she be a little bit more overt [on social media].
"You have to expect some sort of reaction - and it's better to take ownership of it."

Gina Miller the broadcaster said many people told her they were sorry after realising they had messaged the wrong Gina Miller
One of the legal groups that brought the case to the High Court, Mishcon de Reya, previously said that a number of other clients who wanted to join the action withdrew their names after receiving letters of abuse.
Yet for US-based Ms Miller, the abuse has introduced her to a whole new fanbase - boosting her number of followers on Twitter to 28,000 - who can now keep up with her daily insights on American football and baseball.
To make it clear, she did tweet: "Again, to my new UK-friends: Wrong Gina Miller. It's @thatginamiller you want. Appreciate all the engaging dialog though."
She later said: "The tide began to shift when they realised I was the wrong Gina Miller - with lots of people saying they were sorry.
"I started talking to some of them about soccer - one even asked me what I thought of Queen's Park Rangers' manager."
She added: "I'll take them, I hope they'll stay - if they want to chat about sports, I'm their girl."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37869797
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Would you be prepared to repeat that to a plumber face to face?

Are you suggesting that plumbers can't handle facts?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Are you suggesting that plumbers can't handle facts?

No I'm suggesting that plumbers and indeed many other tradesmen / woman need to earn a decent living in order to feed their families.
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By being self-employed, you waive your employment rights so of course I would tell him that. What's wrong with someone trying to pinch someone else's work by undercutting? That's business. Businesses undercut each other all the time.

Would you feel the same if you were undercut and had a family to feed?

 

[Harbornite]

No I'm suggesting that plumbers and indeed many other tradesmen/woman need to earn a decent living in order to feed their families.

Obviously, but they still don't earn a minimum wage.

 

[Harbornite]

Would you feel the same if you were undercut and had a family to feed?

So you want everyone to be paid the exact same, whatever trade they are in?

Competition is one of the aspects of running a business that you have to put up with.

 

[radamfi]

Would you feel the same if you were undercut and had a family to feed?

Why are you making an exception for tradespeople? If you are calling for communism, then fair enough, but be honest about it.

 

[RichmondCommu]

But they are being racist and stupid. Just because people come from a different country doesn't make them second class human beings.

If you "listen" to these "people", there would be no immigration ever again.

So what good do you think will come from alienating those people and who are not racist and are not stupid. What evidence do you have to call them racist and stupid? Do you think it's a good idea to have millions of disaffected people in this country where the main political parties (in particular the Labour party leadership) are not listening to them?

And who says that those people who have come from overseas are second class human beings?
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Why are you making an exception for tradespeople? If you are calling for communism, then fair enough, but be honest about it.

Simply because they have been directly affected by uncontrolled immigration from Europe. And what has Communism got to do with this?

 

[Harbornite]

And who says that those people who have come from overseas are second class human beings?

Go on social media (facebook or twitter in particular) and look at the vitriol written about refugees and muslims. Don't get me wrong, I don't like Islam (ir any other major religion) but I don't dislike muslims, whereas lots of people online seem to.

 

[Harbornite]

Simply because they have been directly affected by uncontrolled immigration from Europe. And what has Communism got to do with this?

You inferred that you don't like competition and that all tradespeople should be paid equally.

 

[radamfi]

So what good do you think will come from alienating those people and who are not racist and are not stupid. What evidence do you have to call them racist and stupid? Do you think it's a good idea to have millions of disaffected people in this country where the main political parties (in particular the Labour party leadership) are not listening to them?

And who says that those people who have come from overseas are second class human beings?

If they aren't racist or stupid then they won't want to block immigration and won't fear competition for jobs from foreigners. Unemployment etc. is not related to population density. If it was, Cornwall would be the richest part of the UK and London would be the poorest.

 

[anme]

And who says that those people who have come from overseas are second class human beings?

You are saying exactly that. You are saying that people from elsewhere in Europe should not necessarily have the right to live in the UK, while British people should. How does that not make people from overseas "second class human beings", who are treating differently, and worse, than British people?

Please *think* about what you are saying.

 

[radamfi]

Simply because they have been directly affected by uncontrolled immigration from Europe. And what has Communism got to do with this?

We don't call people coming from the EU/EEA "immigration". If someone from Manchester goes to live in London we don't call that immigration either. Being in the EU we treat those the same. That's one of the main points of the EU. If you are against that then you can't be a Remainer.

You were hinting at regulated pay for tradespeople. Communism would give you that.

 

[RichmondCommu]

You inferred that you don't like competition and that all tradespeople should be paid equally.

Given that my entire career has been based on capitalism you could hardly call me a supporter of Communism. All I've ever suggested is that the major political parties need to start listening to ordinary working people who have been affected by immigration. I really don't see why you have a problem with that.