EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[RichmondCommu]

PS People who voted for Brexit are racist xenophobic idiots. The fact that this country has so many of them is nothing to be proud of. I thought two world wars had taught us the danger of the tyranny of the majority, but seemingly not.

What, all of them are racist xenophobic idiots??

 

[TheKnightWho]

The whole thing is a complete dogs breakfast. There was (and is) no plan on how we enact Brexit or how we manage the impacts. I assumed somewhere there was a government filing cabinet of dusty files with all of this stuff thought about by the department of thinking stuff up. There wasn't anything. The cabinet was empty but for some stale garibaldis, a dead spider and a couple of tea moldy bags.

The judgment itself makes for interesting reading: David Davis' future plans were said to have "no basis in reality", and it makes it abundantly clear that our government is utterly delusional about what it can achieve in any future Brexit deal. There was a poor understanding of Royal prerogative and article 50, which the judgment states as having been taken totally out of context in the government's argument, and a rather worrying understanding of our constitution by Davis.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that Brexit, from top to bottom, is driven by people who have no pragmatic understanding of Britain's capabilities and influence in the world, but instead purely on the high of heady optimism by nationalists who seem to think Britain is as powerful as it was in the 1920s.

At least people who have lost jobs, become disaffected from politics and have resentment towards politicians would seem to have genuine (if, in my opinion, misinformed) reasons to vote Brexit. Elites like Davis seem to just be living in some fantasy-land that shows they're utterly out of touch with today's globalised world. They have no excuse.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What, all of them are racist xenophobic idiots??

A depressingly significant minority of them are racist, xenophobic and idiots. Nothing I have seen before or after the vote in June has persuaded me that people voted Leave for any reasons other than racism, xenophobia or downright stupidity. But I'm happy to change my opinion if you can point me in the direction of these supposed "moderate" Leave voters who are rational, tolerant and intelligent.

One only has to look at the latest mouth-slurry coming from Nigel Farage, or indeed this morning's Daily Mail labelling the judges as "enemies of the people" and "traitors", to see what I'm talking about.

Now maybe I'm invoking Godwin prematurely here, but talk like that reminds me of a certain someone...
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The reality is that a great many perfectly decent people voted to Leave. Those people who are racist and xenophobic will have voted to leave but that doesn't mean if you voted to leave that you are racist = a dog is a four legged animal but not every four legged animal is a dog!

I think whether someone is "decent" is separate to whether someone voted from a position of rationality and intelligence.

I know my own parents voted to Leave, driven to a great extent by anger at the fact they've struggled financially in the last ten years as a result of my father having a stroke. I understand why they've lashed out, I understand why they've been taken in by the silver-tongue of Farage. I understand why they're annoyed at how in many engineering jobs the Polish get first dibs because they're cheap labour.

But that doesn't make the decision to vote Leave any less idiotic. I think they are idiots for voting Leave, I think they are turkeys voting for Christmas. Even now my mum can't quite manage to join the dots between voting Conservative and being dumped on the scrapheap because of health problems. It is extremely frustrating.

I stand by what I said: anyone who voted Leave is either racist and xenophobic or they are an idiot.

Again, I'm probably invoking Godwin here, but all fascist dictators in history have been enabled by angry people doing stupid things. I'm a working-class lad from Bradford, I understand racial tensions and I understand the anger at poverty. That doesn't mean I have any sympathy for people voting Leave. If they think it's going to fix things then they're an idiot.

 

[J-2739]

Don't you think you're including too much people under one banner 'racist and xenophobic?'

I mean, calling around 17.8 million British citizens 'stupid' is desperately sad.

 

[DarloRich]

The judgment itself makes for interesting reading: David Davis' future plans were said to have "no basis in reality", and it makes it abundantly clear that our government is utterly delusional about what it can achieve in any future Brexit deal. There was a poor understanding of Royal prerogative and article 50, which the judgment states as having been taken totally out of context in the government's argument, and a rather worrying understanding of our constitution by Davis.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that Brexit, from top to bottom, is driven by people who have no pragmatic understanding of Britain's capabilities and influence in the world, but instead purely on the high of heady optimism by nationalists who seem to think Britain is as powerful as it was in the 1920s.

At least people who have lost jobs, become disaffected from politics and have resentment towards politicians would seem to have genuine (if, in my opinion, misinformed) reasons to vote Brexit. Elites like Davis seem to just be living in some fantasy-land that shows they're utterly out of touch with today's globalised world. They have no excuse.

Indeed - I missed out the fact that the government, in the view of the independent judiciary/traitorous enemies of the people (delete as appropriate) not only had no plan but had no idea how to draw up a plan or even what a plan looked like. They didn't even understand the instructions on how to open the box marked PLAN!

 

[Antman]

Hurting? I'm sad that the turkeys have voted for Christmas and I'm angry that my livelihood is going to get trashed because of it.

But it's this sort of gloating that I'm referring to here. Referring to anyone who disagrees with Brexit as a "traitor", demanding the sacking of judges- as UKIP's leader in waiting did yesterday- because they dared to uphold the law. Telling 65% of the population that they have no say. It's chilling.

PS People who voted for Brexit are racist xenophobic idiots. The fact that this country has so many of them is nothing to be proud of. I thought two world wars had taught us the danger of the tyranny of the majority, but seemingly not.



Huh?

65% of people didn't vote for Brexit. That doesn't mean we shouldn't Brexit, but it does mean that any deal has to take into account everyone, not just the swivel-eyed loons and gormless racists who were stupid enough to vote to crash the car into a ravine.

In other words you didn't get the outcome that you wanted so now you'd like to move the goalposts!

 

[DarloRich]

In other words you didn't get the outcome that you wanted so now you'd like to move the goalposts!

We cant all be moving the goal posts or we will never kick off!

Leavers banged on about restoring sovereignty yet when that self same sovereignty is displayed they whine like little girls because it doesn't suit their own view of what sovereignty is.

 

[Antman]

Don't you think you're including too much people under one banner 'racist and xenophobic?'

I mean, calling around 17.8 million British citizens 'stupid' is desperately sad.

His whole argument is desperately sad, he's obviously not heard the old adage about when in a hole stop digging!

 

[Senex]

Indeed - I missed out the fact that the government, in the view of the independent judiciary/traitorous enemies of the people (delete as appropriate) not only had no plan but had no idea how to draw up a plan or even what a plan looked like. They didn't even understand the instructions on how to open the box marked PLAN!

And this was a judgement delivered unanimously by the two most senior judges (the head of the criminal courts and the head of the civil courts) and a specialist in constitutional law setting out their understanding of the working of the royal prerogative. The government is said to be confident that the judgement will be overturned by the Supreme Court. It would be fascinating to know what their grounds are for thinking that the Appeal Court judgement is defective and that the reasoning of the three appellate judges is erroneous (other than pique that a court could challenge the monarch's powers).

 

[RichmondCommu]

A depressingly significant minority of them are racist, xenophobic and idiots. Nothing I have seen before or after the vote in June has persuaded me that people voted Leave for any reasons other than racism, xenophobia or downright stupidity. But I'm happy to change my opinion if you can point me in the direction of these supposed "moderate" Leave voters who are rational, tolerant and intelligent.

In my opinion it's arrogant individuals such as yourself that have driven people who previously voted for Labour over to UKIP, simply by dismissing them as either racists or idiots. Emily Thornberry and other Labour MP'S were doing exactly this before the last election / referendum and look where that got us. Rather than listening to their concerns they way were simply ignored or worse dismissed out of hand, the dangerous assumption being that they wouldn't bother to vote.

 

[Antman]

We cant all be moving the goal posts or we will never kick off!

Leavers banged on about restoring sovereignty yet when that self same sovereignty is displayed they whine like little girls because it doesn't suit their own view of what sovereignty is.

Like little girls? Isn't that sexism?:roll:

 

[DarloRich]

And this was a judgement delivered unanimously by the two most senior judges (the head of the criminal courts and the head of the civil courts) and a specialist in constitutional law setting out their understanding of the working of the royal prerogative. The government is said to be confident that the judgement will be overturned by the Supreme Court. It would be fascinating to know what their grounds are for thinking that the Appeal Court judgement is defective and that the reasoning of the three appellate judges is erroneous (other than pique that a court could challenge the monarch's powers).

coz soferinty innit

AKA the government should be allowed to do what they like free of any checks and balances unless those checks and balances provide confirmation of the essential rightness of the government view. That is a worrying proposition in a parliamentary democracy!

 

[ainsworth74]

It would be fascinating to know what their grounds are for thinking that the Appeal Court judgement is defective and that the reasoning of the three appellate judges is erroneous (other than pique that a court could challenge the monarch's powers).

Yes I'd like to know that as well! Presumably the Prime Minister is very very confident seeing as she's assured Merkel and Junker that the Government will win on appeal and, therefore, we'll still be activating Article 50 by March 2017. Makes me wonder why these arguments that, presumably exist, weren't deployed at the High Court. I suppose alternatively she's blustering.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I mean, calling around 17.8 million British citizens 'stupid' is desperately sad.

5 million working age adults have the reading age of a five-year-old. The Money Advice Service found that 22% of working age adults are so lacking in numeracy and literacy that they cannot read a bank statement. 36% don't know what impact a 2% interest rate will have on a £100 balance.

I stand by what I said.

And yes, I think it is desperately sad that people in the lowest socio-economic groups and that people with the lowest levels of education were most likely to vote Leave. I think it is desperately sad that they were lied to, over and over again. I think it is desperately sad that they've been told to blame the Polish for all their life's woes.

 

[RichmondCommu]

5 million working age adults have the reading age of a five-year-old. The Money Advice Service found that 22% of working age adults are so lacking in numeracy and literacy that they cannot read a bank statement. 36% don't know what impact a 2% interest rate will have on a £100 balance.

That's not stupidity that's down to an education system that doesn't teach the fundamentals properly and gives up on individuals too easily. I've met graduates that didn't / don't understand percentages.
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And yes, I think it is desperately sad that people in the lowest socio-economic groups and that people with the lowest levels of education were most likely to vote Leave. I think it is desperately sad that they were lied to, over and over again. I think it is desperately sad that they've been told to blame the Polish for all their life's woes.

So you don't think they're capable of making their own minds up? You're a member of a political party; did you actively engage with them on the door step or did you simply dismiss them as being racist and / or stupid?

You can't say that people are stupid because they don't have much money.

 

[northwichcat]

^ The less intelligent a person is the more likely they are to believe a lie relating to politics whether it's told by Nigel Farage, David Cameron or Tony Blair.

Being a graduate means you are highly skilled in one area. A number of graduates have learning disabilities but are able to use their strengths to get the degree even if they struggle with things like working out how much change they should be given in a shop.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In my opinion it's arrogant individuals such as yourself that have driven people who previously voted for Labour over to UKIP, simply by dismissing them as either racists or idiots.

Rather than listening to their concerns they way were simply ignored or worse dismissed out of hand, the dangerous assumption being that they wouldn't bother to vote.

I think it is a difficult one, and the position is more nuanced than "arrogant people" who "ignore" them.

I think we have done too much listening to, and pandering to, concerns about immigration. We've sat back when people blame asylum seekers, or the Polish, for all the things that are wrong in the UK. I think we've indulged the anti-immigrant hyperbole and I think that, more than anything, is why we've ended up with such a situation as this.

Any concern that is essentially "immigrants are stealing all our money/jobs" is not a legitimate concern. The fact that politicians have been too lily-livered to stand up and say they are not legitimate concerns- and I include Labour politicians in this as much as Conservative ones- means that these xenophobic ideas fester away in the national psyche. We've had 25 years of people being indulged in their racism- Prime Minister Cameron referred to asylum seekers as a "swarm"- and this is where we are.

I'm just a working-class lad from Bradford, don't try and portray me as some liberal metropolitan elite.
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You can't say that people are stupid because they don't have much money.

Don't put words in my mouth.

So you don't think they're capable of making their own minds up?

In many cases, no. If you get all your world and current affairs knowledge from the Sun or the Express, then you're not capable of weighing up the pros and cons of any decision. Which is why we've got the situation where two of the most senior and experienced constitutional law judges in the land are being labelled as "enemies of the people" for daring to tell the Government that what they are proposing is unlawful. The two biggest-selling newspapers in this country are essentially asking how legal experts dare make a decision on the law, instead of just asking Bob from Pennywell.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm just a working-class lad from Bradford, don't try and portray me as some liberal metropolitan elite.

Based on the front page of the tabloids today anyone preventing the government getting their way with Brexit is seen as some elite person who wants to prevent the ordinary people getting what they want. :roll:

 

[DarloRich]

Like little girls? Isn't that sexism?:roll:

just UKIP style bantz

 

[anme]

Indeed - I missed out the fact that the government, in the view of the independent judiciary/traitorous enemies of the people (delete as appropriate) not only had no plan but had no idea how to draw up a plan or even what a plan looked like. They didn't even understand the instructions on how to open the box marked PLAN!

But it's also very very disturbing that the people who voted "leave" also had no plan or no idea what should happen next. Well, at least, the ones who post here clearly didn't - I must have asked 50 times on this thread and the only responses were one person who wanted to follow the Norwegian model (i.e. very soft Brexit, remaining in the single market and maintaining freedom of movement of people (*) - although I doubt s/he understood that's what it meant) and one person who wanted to copy the trade agreement between the EU and South Korea for the future relationship between the UK and the rest of the EU (which simply doesn't fly as it doesn't deal with, amongst many many other things, financial services or agricultural subsidies).

I gave these people every opportunity to prove they weren't stupid.

 

[Senex]

AKA the government should be allowed to do what they like free of any checks and balances unless those checks and balances provide confirmation of the essential rightness of the government view. That is a worrying proposition in a parliamentary democracy!

But that really does seem to be what they think. It looks more like tyranny than democracy and the rule of law to me.

 

[anme]

A failure to get Brexit through parliament could see Conservative MPs leaving their party and the Conservatives losing their narrow majority meaning the PM wouldn't have enough MPs to survive a vote of no confidence without some opposition MPs voting that they have confidence in her.

What this is really about is Theresa May wanting to avoid any debate about what form Brexit will take. There is probably a majority amongst Tory party MPs, and in parliament as a whole for a "soft" Brexit, but such a debate might well split the Conservatives horribly and possibly fatally.

Despite what May and her idiot ministers say, the referendum was NOT about a hard or soft Brexit, and NOT about leaving the single market or the free movement area. Several countries are part of those agreements without being members of the EU. I am very puzzled as to why so few people, either leavers or remainers, are interested in discussing these choices which are far more fundamental to the future of the UK than the question of whether to leave the EU or not.

 

[DarloRich]

But it's also very very disturbing that the people who voted "leave" also had no plan or no idea what should happen next. Well, at least, the ones who post here clearly didn't - I must have asked 50 times on this thread and the only responses were one person who wanted to follow the Norwegian model (i.e. very soft Brexit, remaining in the single market and maintaining freedom of movement of people (*) - although I doubt s/he understood that's what it meant) and one person who wanted to copy the trade agreement between the EU and South Korea for the future relationship between the UK and the rest of the EU (which simply doesn't fly as it doesn't deal with, amongst many many other things, financial services or agricultural subsidies).

I gave these people every opportunity to prove they weren't stupid.

I think it is fair for the individual to assume that our government plans for these kind of things. Surely that is what we pay them for. The fact they didn't and don't have a plan is more worrying than the lay person not having a plan or even an idea of what to do.

 

[anme]

I think it is fair for the individual to assume that our government plans for these kind of things. Surely that is what we pay them for. The fact they didn't and don't have a plan is more worrying than the lay person not having a plan or even an idea of what to do.

I disagree. If you voted leave, you must have had some reason to do so. If it was because you hate and fear foreigners and don't mind losing your job, then indeed a hard Brexit makes sense. If it was because you just want to reduce payments to the EU a bit, then soft Brexit is better as it won't destroy the economy. People MUST have thought about this before voting, otherwise they are ... well, I won't use the word but I'm sure everyone will agree with the sentiment.

 

[RichmondCommu]

^ The less intelligent a person is the more likely they are to believe a lie relating to politics whether it's told by Nigel Farage, David Cameron or Tony Blair.

I disagree. There were plenty of intelligent people who voted "remain" because they believed David Cameron when he said that Brexit would lead to a financial catastrophe. Given that hasn't happened (although the slump in Sterling is clearly causing problems) those same people have admitted that they would now vote for Brexit.
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Being a graduate means you are highly skilled in one area. A number of graduates have learning disabilities but are able to use their strengths to get the degree even if they struggle with things like working out how much change they should be given in a shop.

I concur that some graduates have learning difficulties but the vast majority don't. And it's that vast majority that are too lazy to do mental arithmetic, they were taught it in school and yet they simply can't be bothered.

And yet I know of plenty of people who don't have a degree, don't even have A Level's and yet their ability to quickly work things out in their head is first class. You can a have a degree in gender studies but you won't get very far if you can't do simple arithmetic.

 

[EM2]

I disagree. There were plenty of intelligent people who voted "remain" because they believed David Cameron when he said that Brexit would lead to a financial catastrophe. Given that hasn't happened (although the slump in Sterling is clearly causing problems) those same people have admitted that they would now vote for Brexit.

Maybe because we haven't actually left yet?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think it is a difficult one, and the position is more nuanced than "arrogant people" who "ignore" them.

I think we have done too much listening to, and pandering to, concerns about immigration. We've sat back when people blame asylum seekers, or the Polish, for all the things that are wrong in the UK. I think we've indulged the anti-immigrant hyperbole and I think that, more than anything, is why we've ended up with such a situation as this.

On the contrary politicians (and my own Labour Party is worse than anyone else) have dismissed peoples concerns over immigration and that is it what has driven traditional Labour voters to UKIP. Those people are not racist, they simply have concerns about the effects that a growing population has on state services. I explained that this was largely down to austerity measures but many saw with their own eye's immigrants in their own suburbs and had made up their minds up. Rather than simply labeling people as "racist" politicians need to start listening.

 

[northwichcat]

I disagree. There were plenty of intelligent people who voted "remain" because they believed David Cameron when he said that Brexit would lead to a financial catastrophe. Given that hasn't happened (although the slump in Sterling is clearly causing problems) those same people have admitted that they would now vote for Brexit.

Brexit hasn't happened. We won't known if that financial catastrophe occurs until at least 2019 given we will be in the EU until at least then. The lack of a proper government plan for Brexit is what's caused the drop in the value of the pound.

One reason I voted remain was because the effect of Brexit on the financial market was unknown and as we've not properly recovered from the last recession I felt it's the wrong time to take a gamble.

Remember that different people on the Remain side disagreed with each other just like different people on the Leave side. George Osborne told us the value of properties will fall if we vote Leave, while Vince Cable told him it was nonsense and even if it wasn't that would attract people to vote Leave. I personally hope, for once, Osborne's prediction comes true and it's sooner rather than later.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Maybe because we haven't actually left yet?

I concur, but people pay attention to what they hear on the TV. And the statistics show the economically the country is doing OK.
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Brexit hasn't happened. We won't known if that financial catastrophe occurs until at least 2019 given we will be in the EU until at least then. The lack of a proper government plan for Brexit is what's caused the drop in the value of the pound.

One reason I voted remain was because the effect of Brexit on the financial market was unknown and as we've not properly recovered from the last recession I felt it's the wrong time to take a gamble.

Remember that different people on the Remain side disagreed with each other just like different people on the Leave side. George Osborne told us the value of properties will fall if we vote Leave, while Vince Cable told him it was nonsense and even if it wasn't that would attract people to vote Leave. I personally hope, for once, Osborne's prediction comes true and it's sooner rather than later.

I agree with everything that you've but a lot of people I've spoken to said "you said Brexit would have a terrible effect on the car industry" and yet of course Nissan have recently announced huge investment in their UK car plant. In which case those same people are now questioning whether we will actually have a recession following our departure from Europe.

 

[J-2739]

Now a Tory mp Leader has resigned, because he was 'stopped from representing his constituents'. Here.

Pro-Brexit Conservative Stephen Phillips has resigned as an MP with immediate effect over "irreconcilable policy differences" with the Government.


Mr Phillips, who has repeatedly called for Theresa May to reveal her Brexit plan to Parliament before starting the formal process of leaving the European Union, said he was "unable to properly represent" his constituents.

The resignation of the Sleaford and North Hykeham MP, who voted in favour of leaving the EU in June's referendum, triggers a by-election in the seat.

Sources close to Mr Phillips, who won a majority of more than 24,000 in last year's general election, have told Sky News he will not stand in the contest.