Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals

[Peter Mugridge]

Why not refurbish the trailers?

Just the old trick of making one good train from two bad ones... the trailers from 3203/4 were in much better condition than those from 3211/2; the power cars were the other way round...

 

[D365]

Suggest you go and do some research on the 373s and where vehicles were built before posting such utter nonsense.

Thank you. I've tried reporting his comment several times but to no avail, until any action is taken I refuse to engage in further dialogue with him.

 

[BananaRepublic]

The NOL sets were british weren't they?

The NoL sets were originally UK owned, but ownership was transferred to the new Eurostar company in 2010.
They were leased to SNCF, but are now withdrawn from use and stored in France awaiting a decision on disposal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of the 16 SNCF-owned 373s, only 3 have been withdrawn (3203/3204, 3225/3226, 3227/3228). The extra power car, 373999, is still there.

The 13 SNCF sets that were operated by Eurostar were transferred to Eurostar ownership in 2010.
That left SNCF with ownership of just the 3 sets that they operated on domestic services. These are the ones that were withdrawn and reportedly scrapped last year.

 

[RobShipway]

Suggest you go and do some research on the 373s and where vehicles were built before posting such utter nonsense.

I knew that the NoL trains where built at washwood Heath, before I made the post.

With regards me posting utter nonsense, at least I do not make comments like the following, until I have been and tried the train first:

What's the issue with the HST cascade? The HSTs are being freed by the new Hitachi junk and I haven't seen any indication that delivery from Hitachi is late.

Mmmm.... Hitachi Junk..... I am not sure if anyone that works for Hitachi that maybe has a user account within these forums would appreciate their trains being called junk and I think it is better to show a bit of respect first, then maybe make a comment about the trains after they have entered into service.

Now going back to my point which I was making, is that to me it seems ridiculous that the the Nol trains are being scrapped when they are only half the age at most of the HST trains.

I know that there is still some usage in the HST trains,, but to me it seems a waste of money which I think was actually public money correct me if I am wrong, that actually paid for the NoL sets in the same way that NoL sleeper cars where paid for by public money, but never got used in this country and ended up in Canada being used by Via Rail.

Thank you. I've tried reporting his comment several times but to no avail, until any action is taken I refuse to engage in further dialogue with him.

Not sure why you would want to be reporting my comments when there has been far worst comments that have been made in these forums to people like myself that yes may not work within the railway industry, but are rail enthusiasts as if we are thick and have no ideas. Which I have complained about on a number of times to the Moderators/Administrators but those same people are still abusive to other members within these forums. My comments earlier in this thread where neither abusive or offensive, unlike other people's comments.

 

[TRAX]

The NoL sets were originally UK owned, but ownership was transferred to the new Eurostar company in 2010.


They were leased to SNCF, but are now withdrawn from use and stored in France awaiting a decision on disposal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---






The 13 SNCF sets that were operated by Eurostar were transferred to Eurostar ownership in 2010.


That left SNCF with ownership of just the 3 sets that they operated on domestic services. These are the ones that were withdrawn and reportedly scrapped last year.

Are you going to say that a fourth time ? Because it's wrong. SNCF has always owned and still owns units 3201/3202-3231/3232. SNCB and EUKL have the rest.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However, based on their normal practice we can very likely expect the power cars 3211/2 to be renumbered to match the trailers.

SNCF never renumbers its vehicles.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

SNCF never renumbers its vehicles*.

Eurostar itself has a long history of doing so, however.

Very often when power cars are temporarily swapped round, they switch round the hatch covers near the front that carry the 3xxx number so that the rake "looks" normal although the smaller full numbers near the other end of the power car have never been changed.

They even did this with 3999 a couple of times.

When they have on occasion mixed two full half sets, however, they haven't done this to one half so it looks like they simply try to keep the power cars matching the trailers when they borrow a power car for a different half set.





*Presumably you are excluding hauled stock from this as renumberings are rife amongst Corail stock...

 

[DarloRich]

I knew that the NoL trains where built at washwood Heath, before I made the post.

With regards me posting utter nonsense, at least I do not make comments like the following, until I have been and tried the train first:

What's the issue with the HST cascade? The HSTs are being freed by the new Hitachi junk and I haven't seen any indication that delivery from Hitachi is late.

Mmmm.... Hitachi Junk..... I am not sure if anyone that works for Hitachi that maybe has a user account within these forums would appreciate their trains being called junk and I think it is better to show a bit of respect first, then maybe make a comment about the trains after they have entered into service.

Now going back to my point which I was making, is that to me it seems ridiculous that the the Nol trains are being scrapped when they are only half the age at most of the HST trains.

I know that there is still some usage in the HST trains,, but to me it seems a waste of money which I think was actually public money correct me if I am wrong, that actually paid for the NoL sets in the same way that NoL sleeper cars where paid for by public money, but never got used in this country and ended up in Canada being used by Via Rail.



Not sure why you would want to be reporting my comments when there has been far worst comments that have been made in these forums to people like myself that yes may not work within the railway industry, but are rail enthusiasts as if we are thick and have no ideas. Which I have complained about on a number of times to the Moderators/Administrators but those same people are still abusive to other members within these forums. My comments earlier in this thread where neither abusive or offensive, unlike other people's comments.

What are you wibbling on about? I will assume you are a kid and cut you a bit of slack.

The Eurostar trains aren't really suitable for use on our network. They are designed for different work and passenger loads.

Off the top of my head some of the issues are: They are very long, have some gauging issues, draw a lot of power and don't have a great internal layout for domestic work.

They might be only half the age of the HST but it has to be financially viable to bring them into service on our network. To do that needs infrastructure investment (longer platforms, changes to track, better power supplies etc) and investment in people ( drivers and guards need to know the stock) plus there needs to be investment in depots and equipment to service the trains if they cant get back to home base every night. They would also be limited to a maximum of 125 mph which kind of defeats the point.

They would also be limited to very few routes and services. Where would you suggest they are used? The HST is an almost go anywhere train that is a widely known commodity with well understood maintenance and servicing requirements. The Eurostar is not.

 

[RobShipway]

What are you wibbling on about? I will assume you are a kid and cut you a bit of slack.

The Eurostar trains aren't really suitable for use on our network. They are designed for different work and passenger loads.

Off the top of my head some of the issues are: They are very long, have some gauging issues, draw a lot of power and don't have a great internal layout for domestic work.

They might be only half the age of the HST but it has to be financially viable to bring them into service on our network. To do that needs infrastructure investment (longer platforms, changes to track, better power supplies etc) and investment in people ( drivers and guards need to know the stock) plus there needs to be investment in depots and equipment to service the trains if they cant get back to home base every night. They would also be limited to a maximum of 125 mph which kind of defeats the point.

They would also be limited to very few routes and services. Where would you suggest they are used? The HST is an almost go anywhere train that is a widely known commodity with well understood maintenance and servicing requirements. The Eurostar is not.

First, i am not a kid. I am in my late 40's and probably been around longer than many on this forum, who act more like kids if they are adults. Second I was not just suggesting a use to be found on the UK Rail network only, if you read an e-mail post that I made in this thread I did actually suggest maybe they could be use for the Eurostar coaches on somewhere like the Via Rail network in Canada along with the Eurostar night stock perhaps?

 

[DarloRich]

First, i am not a kid. I am in my late 40's and probably been around longer than many on this forum, who act more like kids if they are adults. Second I was not just suggesting a use to be found on the UK Rail network only, if you read an e-mail post that I made in this thread I did actually suggest maybe they could be use for the Eurostar coaches on somewhere like the Via Rail network in Canada along with the Eurostar night stock perhaps?

ah - so you are saying sell them off somewhere else. That is a good idea if a buyer can be found who will pay more than the scrap value and will bear the costs of moving them away from France.

 

[RobShipway]

ah - so you are saying sell them off somewhere else. That is a good idea if a buyer can be found who will pay more than the scrap value and will bear the costs of moving them away from France.

Not sure if this was looked into, but as has been done previously I am sure if the 373 coaches are not used on a railway line within the world somewhere, surely some of the coaches even if it is minus the bogies running gear could be used as static sleeping quarters as an example as has been done I believe in the past with other withdrawn coaches.

 

[CosherB]

Not sure if this was looked into, but as has been done previously I am sure if the 373 coaches are not used on a railway line within the world somewhere, surely some of the coaches even if it is minus the bogies running gear could be used as static sleeping quarters as an example as has been done I believe in the past with other withdrawn coaches.

This is turning into a 442-type thread, isn't it?

Re-use at any cost? hock:

 

[DarloRich]

Not sure if this was looked into, but as has been done previously I am sure if the 373 coaches are not used on a railway line within the world somewhere, surely some of the coaches even if it is minus the bogies running gear could be used as static sleeping quarters as an example as has been done I believe in the past with other withdrawn coaches.

I am sure it was looked at by the owners but any offer has to exceed what they would get for scarp and be practical for someone to invest money in and make a return on. Sometimes it isnt. I bet it wasn't here. it cant be reuse at any cost. It has to be re use at an acceptable cost.

 

[jonty14]

Not sure why you would want to be reporting my comments when there has been far worst comments that have been made in these forums to people like myself that yes may not work within the railway industry, but are rail enthusiasts as if we are thick and have no ideas. Which I have complained about on a number of times to the Moderators/Administrators but those same people are still abusive to other members within these forums. My comments earlier in this thread where neither abusive or offensive, unlike other people's comments.[/QUOTE]

Well said. I agree with you there.

 

[59CosG95]

[IRONY]Open-access services on the ECML with 2 442s and a derated 373 powerhead anyone?![/IRONY]

 

[D365]

Not sure why you would want to be reporting my comments when there has been far worst comments that have been made in these forums to people like myself that yes may not work within the railway industry, but are rail enthusiasts as if we are thick and have no ideas. Which I have complained about on a number of times to the Moderators/Administrators but those same people are still abusive to other members within these forums. My comments earlier in this thread where neither abusive or offensive, unlike other people's comments.

Well said. I agree with you there.

Suggesting that I am racially prejudiced is quite low in my books.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Suggesting that I am racially prejudiced is quite low in my books.

As it is in mine... I like all nations and creeds - except the Argentinians

 

[RobShipway]

Suggesting that I am racially prejudiced is quite low in my books.

Where in my comment do I say that you are racist or anyone for that matter?

All I have suggested is that you and a few others are not willing to allow others to have different views to yours and make comments on those views. Instead, you post unwanted nasty comments about the people making those comments you have never met in your life.

I think the Administraors/Moderators would agree with me saying that these forums are not just for people that have had or are currently having a career within the rail community, but for people like me, that are enthusiasts as well and I have been an enthusiast since I was aged 3 back in 1972.

 

[D365]

Where in my comment do I say that you are racist or anyone for that matter?

See below:

Why is it chalk and cheese? Is it just because the MK3 coaches can go anywhere for the most part on Network rail and where built in the UK, whereas the class 373 coaches where built in France so they are bound to be no good.

 

[Domh245]

As it is in mine... I like all nations and creeds - except the Argentinians

There are only two things I can't stand in this world, people who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch

See below:

And of course the fact that several rakes were built in Birmingham (last photo on that page)

 

[RobShipway]

See below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbies View Post
Where in my comment do I say that you are racist or anyone for that matter?
See below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbies View Post
Why is it chalk and cheese? Is it just because the MK3 coaches can go anywhere for the most part on Network rail and where built in the UK, whereas the class 373 coaches where built in France so they are bound to be no good

The comment above is not suggesting that you are being racist. It is stating the impression that I had got from people's posts in this thread prior to my comment above, which is due to the fact that the majority of the class 373 trains where built in France and certainly were designed in France that they were no good, so seem to deserve to be scrapped. So apologies if you got the impression that I was saying that you were being racist, which is certainly not the case.

All I was stating was there seems to be more of a liking to refurbish and in many cases it is going to be rebuild the Mk3 coaches of the HST fleet which are twice the age of the class 373's, than there is for a use to be found for the class 373 even though for the most part within this they can probably only be used on the ECML as far as Leeds. No one as I have stated in one of my statements as seemed to look at the fact that there are railways in other countries where they class 373 coaches possible could have been used, so it seems to me to be a waste of metal to scrap the class 373's after only 20 years or so use.

I am not suggesting that it will happen, but it would be like scrapping the class 91 loco's and Mk4 coaches with the introduction of the IEP trains, as the last class 91 was built in 1991, that is only 25 years ago and certainly feel that the class 91/MK4 coaches certainly have another 15 - 20 years use out of them possibly on the MML when it is electrified. But if not, then that is a waste too if the class 91's/Mk4's were to be scrapped.

 

[Harbornite]

As it is in mine... I like all nations and creeds - except the Argentinians

If that's because of the war in 1982, don't forget that many Argentinians didn't like the Argentinian government either.


Back on topic, we've got another two months (I think) until the next set is sent to EMR.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The Class 373 is a purpose built international version of the TGV, SNCF have been scrapping their domestic TGVs for several years now and to my knowledge have not seen fit to convert the trailer cars for further use as locomotive hauled stock for use in France or any other country, if SNCF don't think it's worthwhile to go to the trouble of adapting what are probably more straightforward vehicles than those of a 373 then why should UK railways even remotely consider doing so?

 

[D365]

The comment above is not suggesting that you are being racist. It is stating the impression that I had got from people's posts in this thread prior to my comment above, which is due to the fact that the majority of the class 373 trains where built in France and certainly were designed in France that they were no good, so seem to deserve to be scrapped. So apologies if you got the impression that I was saying that you were being racist, which is certainly not the case.

Thank you for clarifying your remark. In my view the Class 373s have done their job adequately, but are now outdated and obsolete. Off-the-shelf high speed units (such as the Siemens Velaro) are cheap and readily available, and don't have to be designed specifically for a captive British market.

No one as I have stated in one of my statements as seemed to look at the fact that there are railways in other countries where they class 373 coaches possible could have been used, so it seems to me to be a waste of metal to scrap the class 373's after only 20 years or so use.

High speed trains usually see 10-20 years in frontline service, so it's not out of the ordinary. Don't forget that DB will soon be sending their ICE 1/2 trains to the scrappers, they are of a similar vintage.

I am not suggesting that it will happen, but it would be like scrapping the class 91 loco's and Mk4 coaches with the introduction of the IEP trains, as the last class 91 was built in 1991, that is only 25 years ago and certainly feel that the class 91/MK4 coaches certainly have another 15 - 20 years use out of them possibly on the MML when it is electrified. But if not, then that is a waste too if the class 91's/Mk4's were to be scrapped.

Most of the Class 91 locomotives will be scrapped. They were designed for a thirty year lifespan (which they will be beginning to reach by 2018/19) and haven't been known for reliability. Ditto the Mk4 coaching stock.

 

[RobShipway]

Thank you for clarifying your remark. In my view the Class 373s have done their job adequately, but are now outdated and obsolete. Off-the-shelf high speed units (such as the Siemens Velaro) are cheap and readily available, and don't have to be designed specifically for a captive British market.



High speed trains usually see 10-20 years in frontline service, so it's not out of the ordinary. Don't forget that DB will soon be sending their ICE 1/2 trains to the scrappers, they are of a similar vintage.



Most of the Class 91 locomotives will be scrapped. They were designed for a thirty year lifespan (which they will be beginning to reach by 2018/19) and haven't been known for reliability. Ditto the Mk4 coaching stock.

True, I suppose. It is just a shame to me that as much as the HST trains are good trains, that those seem to have worked for 40 years with being having a new engine 10 or so years ago and will possibly work for another 20 years after the Mk3 coaches have had sliding doors added, yet other trains as you have mentioned above after 20 years of use seem to have no further use.

To me it is a waste of the resources that were put into making the likes of the class 373's at Washwood Heath, 20 years ago that they are now to be scrapped. It is a shame that trains cannot be built with reused metal from previous trains being scrapped, although the strength of the metal probably would not be as good in the reused metal to build new trains.

I must confess that I have not been on a class 91 Mk4 train, but did travel to Brussels when the Eurostar trains where going out of what was then Waterloo International and where very comfortable trains to travel on.

 

[najaB]

It is a shame that trains cannot be built with reused metal from previous trains being scrapped, although the strength of the metal probably would not be as good in the reused metal to build new trains.

Assuming competent source-separation of the feedstock, there is no material difference between virgin and recycled steel. Aluminium is a little more tricky as slight differences in alloying metals can result in very different properties - but again, nothing that can't be avoided by careful separation at source.

 

[D365]

The Class 373 bodyshells are steel, just for the record.

 

[The Planner]

To me it is a waste of the resources that were put into making the likes of the class 373's at Washwood Heath, 20 years ago that they are now to be scrapped.

Depends on what length of service they assumed when they costed it at the beginning, if it was 20 years then nothing has been wasted on the whole life cost.

 

[sprinterguy]

I am not suggesting that it will happen, but it would be like scrapping the class 91 loco's and Mk4 coaches with the introduction of the IEP trains, as the last class 91 was built in 1991, that is only 25 years ago and certainly feel that the class 91/MK4 coaches certainly have another 15 - 20 years use out of them possibly on the MML when it is electrified. But if not, then that is a waste too if the class 91's/Mk4's were to be scrapped.

Off topic and various folk seem to keep having to say this again and again, but the youngest (and bear in mind that the first class 91 was released from works during March 1988, making it 28 years old by this point) class 91 is 25 years old right now: The sets aren't due off lease until 31st March 2020, by which point the locos will be between 29 and 32 years old, and the coaching stock around thirty as well. That's a good innings for long distance inter-city stock built with a specific route in mind.

The demands and stresses placed on electronically complex high speed stock running at the best part of 200mph day in, day out, can be even greater. Although it's interesting to note that SNCFs' original PSE series TGVs, of a similar vintage to our HSTs, have survived at least in part to the present day, and it's a bit surprising to see Eurostar's "super trains" which I can remember being launched with much pomp and fanfare now going to the scrapyard, but it's not unprecedented in the world of high speed rolling stock.

 

[Crossforth]

Not being savvy to the electrics on mk3 and mk4 sets but instead of converting mk3s to have plug doors, could the mk4s be used with HSTs instead?

An example of use could be the HSTs going to ScotRail and they could take mk4s instead. Especially if the HSTs aren't going to be there long term (longer than ten years).

But again, I don't know how they're wired.

 

[sprinterguy]

Not being savvy to the electrics on mk3 and mk4 sets but instead of converting mk3s to have plug doors, could the mk4s be used with HSTs instead?

An example of use could be the HSTs going to ScotRail and they could take mk4s instead. Especially if the HSTs aren't going to be there long term (longer than ten years).

But again, I don't know how they're wired.

HST power cars are unable to provide train supply to mark 4 vehicles as HSTs use a three phase supply, while mark 4s run off the normal 1000V supply provided by ETS fitted locomotives.

It would probably be possible to fit a generator within the van space of an HST power car to provide train supply, but the mark 4s do not become available until around 12 - 18 months after Scotrail begin to take delivery of their HST sets, post refurbishment.