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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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BestWestern

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Well as I've said before, I travel regularly on packed commuter trains that don't have a guard, perhaps you could enlighten as to what it is that I'm missing?

Your perspective and grasp of the risks as a passenger will be very, very different from that of the people who are directly responsible. Some of what is being spouted on here underlines the differences in those viewpoints, the continued suggestions that calling 999 is the done thing, in particular. Passengers are not trained to appreciate the various risks present at different times, and will likely view travelling on a train as being no different to riding on a bus, and boarding or leaving the train as no different to crossing the road. In reality, there are hazards, there are rules and there are complex procedures for dealing with incidents.

Some who have no railway training are deeply persistent in their assertions that there is nothing to it, and if there is an incident it's no different to something happening in their local Tesco. Those assertions are wrong. There is a whacking great Rulebook which points that out.

But never mind, you can always call 999. Just like you would on a bus...
 
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infobleep

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I regularly use a DOO train ... we dont even need an onboard ticket monkey as you so tactfully call them. OBS is just a way of not having to sack all the guards.

Up north and a little 1 or 2 coach train yes ... that might be the case ... but then on a 12 car train he has as little chance of seeing a falling passenger as the driver.

Train slamming into the stationary train. That is what signals are for. If what you are saying is correct, the railway has bigger issues than if there is a guard on the train. And down south we all have mobile phones ... sure at least one passenger could dial 911(999)
I would love to dial 999. Unfortunately O2 are less keen or at least we're less keen to spend on their infrastructure so I can't always do so due to lack of reception.

To be fair others may be equally as bad, just that I don't use their services.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

TheEdge

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Well as I've said before, I travel regularly on packed commuter trains that don't have a guard, perhaps you could enlighten as to what it is that I'm missing?

There is 450 plus pages of people trying to enlighten you are you've ignored all of them so far so I doubt we can say anything that will point out what you are missing...
 

Antman

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Your perspective and grasp of the risks as a passenger will be very, very different from that of the people who are directly responsible. Some of what is being spouted on here underlines the differences in those viewpoints, the continued suggestions that calling 999 is the done thing, in particular. Passengers are not trained to appreciate the various risks present at different times, and will likely view travelling on a train as being no different to riding on a bus, and boarding or leaving the train as no different to crossing the road. In reality, there are hazards, there are rules and there are complex procedures for dealing with incidents.

Some who have no railway training are deeply persistent in their assertions that there is nothing to it, and if there is an incident it's no different to something happening in their local Tesco. Those assertions are wrong. There is a whacking great Rulebook which points that out.

But never mind, you can always call 999. Just like you would on a bus...

Like you would dial 999 in any emergency!

However you want to dress it up the irrefutable fact is that DOO trains run on numerous routes and generally without any problem whatsoever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is 450 plus pages of people trying to enlighten you are you've ignored all of them so far so I doubt we can say anything that will point out what you are missing...

Or trying to pull the wool over the eyes of anybody who disagrees?
 

Astradyne

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They may as well call 999 (with whatever sketchy details and for whatever limited purpose as I think I have adequately demonstrated) but they don't need to go looking for a member of crew - the point is that the member of crew will be out there helping them not get minced if they are in any state to do so! And with a guard you are basically twice as likely to have someone in such a state to do so - possibly more so, given you now have an extra person who isn't in the crumple zone.

Other than "we've had a train crash, the next station was meant to be East Croydon but that's a fairly long way away" what exactly do you expect to be able to say to a 999 call handler which is of any use?

Dont modern trains have GPS to locate them or is this another technology dinasaurs will not allow. If they do ... there must be some NR crisis number that can be dialed to locate a train

I am begining to think rail employees regard every member of the public thick simpletons that cant work out what 2+2 is. I would still love to see some guards run 2.5 miles .... some look like they struggle to walk the length of a 12 coach train.
 
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BestWestern

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Like you would dial 999 in any emergency!

However you want to dress it up the irrefutable fact is that DOO trains run on numerous routes and generally without any problem whatsoever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Or trying to pull the wool over the eyes of anybody who disagrees?

Please read, and absord...

In the event of a train accident, none of the procedures carried out by the crew at the scene involve dialling 999. All communication goes through the signaller, who can liase with the emergency services to ensure they have the information they need to respond effectively. They also do other such useful things as stopping another train from slamming into the wreckage, and switching off power lines carrying 25,000 volts, or conductor rails carrying 750 volts, and so on.

A passenger could, and in many cases very probably would, call 999. However, the response would be slow, uncertain and would ultimately require a call back to the railway to find out what was going on. There are procedures in place which trained personnel carry out and which are designed deal in the best way with the situation. The travelling public are not trained in doing this; you require qualified staff. They do not involve calling 999 and asking for a policeman to come and save you.
 
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Astradyne

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As a DOO driver with a branch of GTR I'd like to add my twopenneth....
I don't like DOO operation..never have done.Much sooner have my Guard back
Its safe yes...but MUCH safer with two people,safety critical trained.
As for Antmans comments (amongst other gems from other similarly enlightened others..) all I can say is I wish I could take you out with me for a week on packed commuter trains. I really think then you would see why I wish all trains still had a guard on board

Thank you ... a comment from a rail employee that is not belittling.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Please read, and absord...

In the event of a train accident, none of the procedures carried out by the crew at the scene involve dialling 999. All communication goes through the signaller, who can liase with the emergency services to ensure they have the information they need to respond effectively. They also do other such useful things as stopping another train from slamming into the wreckage, and switching off power lines carrying 25,000 volts, or conductor rails carrying 750 volts, and so on.

A passenger could, and in many cases very probably would, call 999. However, the response would be slow, uncertain and would ultimately require a call back to the railway to find out what was going on. There are procedures in place which trained personnel carry out and which are designed deal in the best way with the situation. The travelling public are not trained in doing this; you require qualified staff. They do not involve calling 999 and asking for a policeman to come and save you.

Again with technology ... most of this could be detected and actioned automatically by the signalman. A train not reaching a signal within a set timespan should place the signal box on high alert, so most of that first part is taken care of.

The whole process seems to be too manual action heavy .... manual actions are more often wrong (human error) than automated ones
 
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tsr

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Dont modern trains have GPS to locate them or is this another technology dinasaurs will not allow.

Many do have it, and it is used for a variety of purposes, but the fact of the matter is that GPS is not reliable on quite a lot of bits of railway, and there is no unique standard by which all trains are required to broadcast their position because of the types and history of both trains and infrastructure.

It is much safer to use a system of mobile communications (track circuit clips, dets and GSM-R) dedicated to the network, available in cuttings, tunnels, under big bridges and tower blocks, etc., backed up with someone who knows where they are, who is required to go for a brisk walk in an environment in which they are trained to operate, in order to warn the rest of the world.

In any case, a train can stop anywhere for a million and one reasons, by no means all of which are a train accident, and can usually be dealt with as routine problems by regular TOC or Network Rail resources. A train may continuously report its location by GPS (or system which works everywhere on the railway) but detecting that the reason for which it's been in the same location for some time requires an emergency response, or that it's the same train which a 999 caller has vaguely identified as being maybe in roughly the same place as an accident, is a whole different story. Most likely the train could not give any detail about the accident without significant equipment retrofitted to measure impact, changes in its geometry etc. And how many layers more do you want to add to a network which is already incredibly safe as it is, and not at all prone to fatal accidents? Why not just keep what you already have, instead of spending oodles of the saved money on a system which has to be relied upon, when launched sideways in a snow drift in a deep cutting, to do the same...?
 
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Astradyne

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OĶ, my last words on the suject seems to be ... rail employees ... resist change at any cost .... if it was good in Victorian times it is good now, and for ever more .... off to listen to my wireless .... good night.
 

TheEdge

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Again with technology ... most of this could be detected and actioned automatically by the signalman. A train not reaching a signal within a set timespan should place the signal box on high alert, so most of that first part is taken care of.

As has been said several times, train too long in section rules exist and have done for a very very long time, it was how incidents were noticed before any forms of mobile communications existed. They are the Victorian way of doing it.

How does your automatic system detect a big bit of GRP (which is really heavily used now) which won't activate the signalling system lying on the tracks? How will it detect people on the line? Are you now expecting the signalman to take on the role of the Electrical Controller making them responsible for even more stuff than they already are. What happens when a train comes to grief one minute into a 12 minute section. That's let say 15 minutes away from your system noting anything wrong. How will it detect a train stood foul of other lines? How does a signalling system, with no communication from a train tell the difference between a track circuit showing occupied when clear caused by a signalling fault and caused by a crash?

Or rather than overengineering a needlessly complex system just leave guards on trains.
 

Andrew32

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Well as I've said before, I travel regularly on packed commuter trains that don't have a guard, perhaps you could enlighten as to what it is that I'm missing?

What you are missing is the fact that you're judging wether someone is worthy of a job in a profession you do not understand, if the shoe was on the other foot and we we're criticising bus drivers you would say the same.

If you don't understand it, don't get involved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Dont modern trains have GPS to locate them or is this another technology dinasaurs will not allow. If they do ... there must be some NR crisis number that can be dialed to locate a train

I am begining to think rail employees regard every member of the public thick simpletons that cant work out what 2+2 is. I would still love to see some guards run 2.5 miles .... some look like they struggle to walk the length of a 12 coach train.

Where do you get 2.5 miles from and you walk, not run as it's dangerous running in the cess.

I don't regard commuters as simpletons, I just expect them to understand that I know my job and my job is to get them from A to B safely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Astradyne said:
if it was good in Victorian times it is good now,

Your correct, every train in the victorian times had a guard on the train so what was then is good now.
 
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Don King

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OĶ, my last words on the suject seems to be ... rail employees ... resist change at any cost .... if it was good in Victorian times it is good now, and for ever more .... off to listen to my wireless .... good night.

That depends entirely what the change is. Crews are now using laptops and tablets, modern radio communication systems, train management systems and GPS for SDO aboard newer traction and so forth. Guards are generally based in publicly accessible offices on 390s, 450s and 444s, rather than the back cab or a brake van with a wind on / wind off handbrake. Drivers do not have a second man (except when safety systems fail), and in many cases are using modern DAS systems, and adapting to new traction.

The idea we are all going around flagging out / driving 47s hauling a rake of vacuum braked mark 1s with brake vans, having to stop at stations or signal boxes purely to speak to the signalman, and going on strike because a manager failed to knock on the newsroom door before entering and so on is a nonsense.

The reasons drivers do not want DOO have been summed up at length on here. To recap DOO is not a technological improvement, as that would assume that technology has replaced the need for a human to dispatch trains, evacuate passengers, secure the line and contact the signaller. It hasn't. Instead what it has done is put the responsibilities of the guard and platform staff on the driver. These responsibilities are safety critical tasks which if performed incorrectly, either by error or omission, can lead in the worst case scenario to death. The penalty for getting these wrong for a driver will be anything from a CDP (competence development plan) - which can affect future employment, through to dismissal, fines in court, or imprisonment (the legal precedent currently being 5 years).

It does not matter if the passenger is drunk, on drugs, violent, uncooperative, acting recklessly, engaging in criminal activity or whatever, the driver on DOO is solely liable for their welfare. This is on top of all the other duties a driver has to do deal with.

When DOO came in at first, it was largely on shorter trains with less passengers. The general attitude was that if you gained interlock at the doors, the train was safe to move, and in BR days at that time if you had a safety incident it was usually treated with no more than a slapped wrist or a dressing down, then forgotten about, rather than the endless paperwork, suspensions, demotion and so on. The general attitude in society back then also was that if a member of the public was acting in a reckless / criminal manner, then it was their own stupid fault if they got injured / killed.

Drivers were also promised other staff on board at the time (that did not materialise), and any risks with DOO were largely theoretical at the time, as no one quite knew what would materialise. Also the Serpell report had just been published, which recommended such drastic action as closing the entire Midland Mainline, anything west of Bristol, and virtually all regional railways routes, so there was a feeling of "desperate times call for desperate measures'. The drivers' pay was also dire at the time, so they were easily bribed - particularly as again risks were largely theoretical and there was a great fear the network could be chopped to bits. And even back then there was still huge opposition to DOO.

The pro DOO crowd like to tell us to "modernise" and that "we are not in the 80s now". I couldn't agree more. And this is why a discredited cheap cost cutting system brought in in 80s should be junked in favour of properly crewed trains, where the driver drives, the guard deals with the on train dispatch, passengers on trains and on board issues, and the platform staff deal with the station dispatch, issues on stations and passengers on stations.
 

Goldfish62

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So you are willing to say that the chances of a major derailment, train fire etc is sufficiently low that you would be willing to not have that second person on board to stop people detraining themselves and should people be killed or injured it just 'C'est la vie'? When you start letting the accountants manage safety it's a very very slippery slope. Arguably it's what happened in the US with their failure to make the train company implement a version of TPWS and look what happened!

Given that I travel on DOO trains several time a week m answer would have to be Yes. I have more chance of being killed by a car while walking to the station.
 

otomous

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Given that I travel on DOO trains several time a week m answer would have to be Yes. I have more chance of being killed by a car while walking to the station.

But it's not your responsibility is it? Drivers are being asked to take that responsibility from you. See Don King's post. Easy for you to say.
 

Dave1987

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It does rather sound as if things are under-engineered at present.

Yup some parts of the network still have signalling from decades ago. It has taken them years and years to slowly update the network with high capacity areas given priority. The problem is is the railway needs systems in place that are totally infallible and will work every time. That's why we still have detonators in the cab because the GSMR radio isn't totally reliable. Once you start engineering that basic level of protection out of the system the unthinkable happens and people are killed or injured. Our railway has a damn good safety record from being "under-engineered".
 

74A

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As a DOO driver with a branch of GTR I'd like to add my twopenneth....
I don't like DOO operation..never have done.Much sooner have my Guard back
Its safe yes...but MUCH safer with two people,safety critical trained.
As for Antmans comments (amongst other gems from other similarly enlightened others..) all I can say is I wish I could take you out with me for a week on packed commuter trains. I really think then you would see why I wish all trains still had a guard on board

Indeed I can understand it will make you job easier if you have a guard to operate the doors. A driver who came over from DOO to Guard told me that the guard does most of the work and his job was much easier now.

However DOO has operated safely for many years now. No one has been able to make out a safety benefit of having the guard on the train. Even ASLEF in there ballots on Southern are not balloting over safety. They are balloting because they say an agreement needs to be reached before more DOO is introduced.

So I'm afraid the government has taken a look at this and can see a saving to be made and the money can be better spent elsewhere. I agree ticket prices are not going to reduce but the railways get a subsidy and the government are seeking to reduce this subsidy and reducing staff on the train is one way of doing this.
 

Antman

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What you are missing is the fact that you're judging wether someone is worthy of a job in a profession you do not understand, if the shoe was on the other foot and we we're criticising bus drivers you would say the same.

If you don't understand it, don't get involved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Your arrogance really is breathtaking, what you're really saying is that if you don't agree with us then don't get involved. Well that isn't how forums like this work, if you're going to make dubious claims then expect them to be challenged. As I've said countless times I travel on DOO trains regularly and nobody has explained what the safety issues are that I am (apparently?) missing.

BTW I'm not a bus driver anymore but if I were and somebody wanted to criticize them then they are perfectly entitled to do so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Please read, and absord...

In the event of a train accident, none of the procedures carried out by the crew at the scene involve dialling 999. All communication goes through the signaller, who can liase with the emergency services to ensure they have the information they need to respond effectively. They also do other such useful things as stopping another train from slamming into the wreckage, and switching off power lines carrying 25,000 volts, or conductor rails carrying 750 volts, and so on.

A passenger could, and in many cases very probably would, call 999. However, the response would be slow, uncertain and would ultimately require a call back to the railway to find out what was going on. There are procedures in place which trained personnel carry out and which are designed deal in the best way with the situation. The travelling public are not trained in doing this; you require qualified staff. They do not involve calling 999 and asking for a policeman to come and save you.

Absord?:oops:

This really is going round and round in circles and not getting anywhere:roll:!

Obviously in the unlikely event of a train crash the more staff there are on scene the better, but does that really justify the retention of guards?
 
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Tetchytyke

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Obviously in the unlikely event of a train crash the more staff there are on scene the better, but does that really justify the retention of guards?

As we've been through several times now, it isn't just a "train crash" that causes the problems. Routine outages on DOO trains cause chaos because one member of staff can't control the situation by themselves.

Kentish Town and the Mile End derailment are the biggest examples of this, but the repeated incidents of passengers de-training themselves on SouthEastern is just a low level example of this. It happened last year at London Bridge and the juice had to be turned off for three hours because of the number of people who got fed up of no information and let themselves out.

As for whether this "justifies the retention of guards", that depends on your outlook. An accountant will probably say no: the delay minutes and compensation, and the fines from a diamond-encrusted FUBAR like Kentish Town, are cheaper than the guards. Somebody focused on safety will probably say yes: preventing passengers letting themselves out is better than saving money. I guess it depends which side of the divide you want to be on. I prefer safety.
 

Carlisle

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The pro DOO crowd like to tell us to "modernise" and that "we are not in the 80s now". I couldn't agree more. And this is why a discredited cheap cost cutting system brought in in 80s should be junked in favour of properly crewed trains, where the driver drives, the guard deals with the on train dispatch, passengers on trains and on board issues, and the platform staff deal with the station dispatch, issues on stations and passengers on stations.

As many posters have pointed out for the umpteenth time on here DOO isn't perfect , but nor is full guarded operation, ASLEF were quite willing from 1982 until mid 2015 to work with the TOCs and Rail Safety bodies etc about plans for expanding it where it was thought appropriate to do so and it didnt suddenly become less safe or unworkable as a result of a single union meeting decision to oppose it nationally last year
 
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BestWestern

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Your arrogance really is breathtaking, what you're really saying is that if you don't agree with us then don't get involved. Well that isn't how forums like this work, if you're going to make dubious claims then expect them to be challenged. As I've said countless times I travel on DOO trains regularly and nobody has explained what the safety issues are that I am (apparently?) missing.

BTW I'm not a bus driver anymore but if I were and somebody wanted to criticize them then they are perfectly entitled to do so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Absord?:oops:

This really is going round and round in circles and not getting anywhere:roll:!

Obviously in the unlikely event of a train crash the more staff there are on scene the better, but does that really justify the retention of guards?

Yes, absord is a railway word that you passenger people wouldn't understand.... :D :oops: Or maybe it should say 'absorb'!

In short, yes. It does justify the retention a second qualified crew member. There is overwhelming support for doing so from all corners of the industry, it is merely government cutting that is in favour of getting rid. This government would cut limbs off if they thought it would save money, that's their mission. Look at the mess they've created elsewhere. This whole dispute, including the GTR facade, is merely a diversionary tactic to hide what is just another swing of the Tory axe. That's all there is to it.
 

Tetchytyke

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AASLEF were quite willing from 1982 until mid 2015 to work with the TOCs

In the 80s and early 90s they were, but things have changed and so has the attitude of the drivers.

It's one thing driving a four-car train DOO, it's quite another driving a 12-car peak train with 1200 passengers on it by yourself. The increased appetite for drivers and guards to be prosecuted for PTI failings has simply added to the drivers' belief that DOO is no longer appropriate.

Things change, things that were once considered safe are now no longer considered appropriate. Isn't that what we mean by progress?
 

Andrew32

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Your arrogance really is breathtaking, what you're really saying is that if you don't agree with us then don't get involved. Well that isn't how forums like this work, if you're going to make dubious claims then expect them to be challenged. As I've said countless times I travel on DOO trains regularly and nobody has explained what the safety issues are that I am (apparently?) missing.

You have every right to comment, but people in the industry have tried and tried again to answer your questions and each time you state that you travel on DOO services on a regular basis.

Yes, it gives you the right to put your point across, however, you don't understand the role of a guard or driver and therefore cannot advise as to whether they are needed or not.

Now, let me ask you a question: in the event of an accident where the train is derailed, tell me what course of action you would take given your experience of regularly travelling on a DOO service.
 
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NSEFAN

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Arctic Troll said:
As for whether this "justifies the retention of guards", that depends on your outlook. An accountant will probably say no: the delay minutes and compensation, and the fines from a diamond-encrusted FUBAR like Kentish Town, are cheaper than the guards. Somebody focused on safety will probably say yes: preventing passengers letting themselves out is better than saving money. I guess it depends which side of the divide you want to be on. I prefer safety.
And this is the crux of the matter. The government is looking to make savings and the easiest way of doing this is by reducing the number of front-line staff, because dealing with the real parasites (such as Network Rail's approved suppliers) is "too hard". Whilst costs are reduced, it's very easy for delays to balloon because the remaining staff are overworked, and all the while nothing is done to deal with the real financial black holes that suck money out of the industry.
 

Don King

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Indeed I can understand it will make you job easier if you have a guard to operate the doors. A driver who came over from DOO to Guard told me that the guard does most of the work and his job was much easier now.

However DOO has operated safely for many years now. No one has been able to make out a safety benefit of having the guard on the train. Even ASLEF in there ballots on Southern are not balloting over safety. They are balloting because they say an agreement needs to be reached before more DOO is introduced.

DOO self dispatch via CCTV is responsible for the bulk of safety of the line incidents and injuries in dispatch, see the RAIB reports. It is inherently dangerous because there zero mechanism for communicating with passengers within the danger zone of the side of the train, is zero field of vision of the wider platform including entrances where late runners / drunks can launch themselves into the danger zone, one fixed view which can be distorted from anything from rain, umbrellas, sleet, fog, sunlight, and they are not even in real time. It is impossible using CCTV to discern the difference between someone trapped in the doors and pressing a button.

DOO self dispatch via CCTV is fundamentally dangerous. And that's before we get onto the fact that train dispatch and passengers are a serious distraction from drivers' duties, not to mention the driver having to do the rest of the duties guards (and dispatchers do), and the fact that DOO drivers are routinely abused and attacked which leads to distraction and safety breaches.

The train is always safer with a guard and platform dispatchers.
 

Antman

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Your arrogance really is breathtaking, what you're really saying is that if you don't agree with us then don't get involved. Well that isn't how forums like this work, if you're going to make dubious claims then expect them to be challenged. As I've said countless times I travel on DOO trains regularly and nobody has explained what the safety issues are that I am (apparently?) missing./QUOTE]

You have every right to comment, but people in the industry have tried and tried again to answer your questions and each time you state that you travel on DOO services on a regular basis.

Yes, it gives you the right to put your point across, however, you don't understand the role of a guard or driver and therefore cannot advise as to whether they are needed or not.

Now, let me ask you a question: in the event of an accident where the train is derailed, tell me what course of action you would take given your experience of regularly travelling on a DOO service.

I would probably call 999 but I'm sure you'll tell me that is the wrong course of action.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As we've been through several times now, it isn't just a "train crash" that causes the problems. Routine outages on DOO trains cause chaos because one member of staff can't control the situation by themselves.

Kentish Town and the Mile End derailment are the biggest examples of this, but the repeated incidents of passengers de-training themselves on SouthEastern is just a low level example of this. It happened last year at London Bridge and the juice had to be turned off for three hours because of the number of people who got fed up of no information and let themselves out.

As for whether this "justifies the retention of guards", that depends on your outlook. An accountant will probably say no: the delay minutes and compensation, and the fines from a diamond-encrusted FUBAR like Kentish Town, are cheaper than the guards. Somebody focused on safety will probably say yes: preventing passengers letting themselves out is better than saving money. I guess it depends which side of the divide you want to be on. I prefer safety.

But that's just it, on a packed 12 coach train how is one guard going to prevent passengers letting themselves out of the train in the event of an accident?
 

Don King

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Your arrogance really is breathtaking, what you're really saying is that if you don't agree with us then don't get involved. Well that isn't how forums like this work, if you're going to make dubious claims then expect them to be challenged. As I've said countless times I travel on DOO trains regularly and nobody has explained what the safety issues are that I am (apparently?) missing.

The safety issues have been explained in length by very very experienced drivers, guards, station staff and railway staff of other grades.

If we are being arrogant, then the fact of the matter is that we railwaymen know better than Wilkinson, the DFT, Grayling and the Tories and corporates pushing destuffing, DOO and other cost cutting rot, because we do the job every day, we have seen the near misses, fatalities, assaults, abuse, aftermath of incidents, station overruns, stop shorts, dangerous practices, mistakes, distractions, violent / erratic behaviour, and so on, both from our own experiences, that of our colleagues, that which our managers brief us on and so on. We see them every day. We know the risks and the penalties we face if we make mistakes. Therefore we are the best people to know when a system works, and when it doesn't.

In the same way a brain surgeon, my GP or a nurse knows more about the NHS than Jeremy Hunt or Nick "break it up" Clegg, the same way front line coppers, detectives and so on knows more about policing than the politicians, the fact that the average squaddie knows far more about war than Hillary Clinton or whatever scumbag edits the sun now, and so on.

Passengers, whether they are inquisitive, interested or churning out the "smash the strikers and jail their wives" rot from the tabloids, do not know the realities of the industry in the same way we do.

I do not know the realities of policing for example. My mate is a copper, and rather than spout the "why do you not walk the beat / you lot are overpaid / beat up people for no reason / only bully motorists whilst letting nonces rape everyone / never seen a copper out on a Saturday night" nonsense, I actually listen to what he has to say, simply because he knows better than I do, and in many cases it is a real eye opener into why what we perceive the police to be doing as members of the public is completely different to the reality.
 

Andrew32

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18 Jul 2013
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492
I would probably call 999 but I'm sure you'll tell me that is the wrong course of action.
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But that's just it, on a packed 12 coach train how is one guard going to prevent passengers letting themselves out of the train in the event of an accident?

And after calling 999 what would you tell them or if there's no signal what would your next course of action be?
 
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