Eurostar e320 / Class 374 "Velaro"

[TRAX]

There hasn't been any noticeable long-term parking of units (what we call here GBE (Garage Bon Etat)). The only units affected by GBE at the moment are the NOL sets.

The main reason behind the withdrawal of the 373s is indeed the arrival of the 374s. As usual, SNCF likes playing discreet with TGV withdrawals.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

All this working out of utilisation... how many units would be required to work the complete current timetable assuming the 374s get cleared for Ashford, Bruxelles and the ski trains - including a maintenance cover allowance?

As usual, SNCF likes playing discreet with TGV withdrawals.

Not as discrete as they were; they've apparently recently announced that all the single deck TGVs will be gone within ten years ( mention of this is in Today's Railways Europe issue 251 ).

 

[TRAX]

I suppose they think There's more positive than negative in saying the fleet will soon be 100 % double deck

 

[jayiscupid]

Units that are long-term OOU.

And my understanding was that the Class 374s were ordered to provide additional services and not just to simply replace a number of the 373s, is that not still the case?

It was when they had visions of serving Amsterdam, Cologne and Frankfurt but the expectations on passport control didn't happen and now they're using the 374's to replace the worst examples of the original Eurostars. Amsterdam is going to be served twice a day. There was talks originally around a higher frequency.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

All this working out of utilisation... how many units would be required to work the complete current timetable assuming the 374s get cleared for Ashford, Bruxelles and the ski trains - including a maintenance cover allowance?




Not as discrete as they were; they've apparently recently announced that all the single deck TGVs will be gone within ten years ( mention of this is in Today's Railways Europe issue 251 ).

I wonder if they've any routes that regularly get enough passengers to justify instead of 2 duplexes coupled together, having a single duplex the same length as 2 duplexes coupled together

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder if they've any routes that regularly get enough passengers to justify instead of 2 duplexes coupled together, having a single duplex the same length as 2 duplexes coupled together

They did have a plan, since dropped, to stick AGV power bogies under the ends of Duplex carriage rakes and run trains consisting of power car+rake+rake+power car. I think for now the flexibility of coupling complete sets wins out.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I wonder if they've any routes that regularly get enough passengers to justify instead of 2 duplexes coupled together, having a single duplex the same length as 2 duplexes coupled together

The Paris Gare de Lyon routes are mostly pairs of double deck examples, but I fear we are drifting away from the class 374 somewhat...

 

[TRAX]

I wonder if they've any routes that regularly get enough passengers to justify instead of 2 duplexes coupled together, having a single duplex the same length as 2 duplexes coupled together

Not all Duplex services are operated in multiple.

 

[Mikey C]

It was when they had visions of serving Amsterdam, Cologne and Frankfurt but the expectations on passport control didn't happen and now they're using the 374's to replace the worst examples of the original Eurostars. Amsterdam is going to be served twice a day. There was talks originally around a higher frequency.

Twice a day to Amsterdam is a pretty miserable frequency. That's hardly likely to attract many business travellers

Are the 373s really in such a bad condition that withdrawal makes sense?

 

[najaB]

Are the 373s really in such a bad condition that withdrawal makes sense?

They are at the point where they either have to be withdrawn or have serious money spent on refurbishment. There is no do-nothing option.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

They are at the point where they either have to be withdrawn or have serious money spent on refurbishment. There is no do-nothing option.

facts, business policy and sense, we'll be having none of that on here

 

[Mikey C]

They are at the point where they either have to be withdrawn or have serious money spent on refurbishment. There is no do-nothing option.

IF the 374s hadn't been ordered, they would presumably have just refurbished the existing stock, which is what usually happens with trains when they reach midlife. It's not as if the existing trains are fundamentally inadequate OR that growth on the existing routes is so great that they need new trains.

 

[Emblematic]

IF the 374s hadn't been ordered, they would presumably have just refurbished the existing stock, which is what usually happens with trains when they reach midlife. It's not as if the existing trains are fundamentally inadequate OR that growth on the existing routes is so great that they need new trains.

However they would still have needed a new train for the planned services to Holland and Germany. And unlike the majority of UK services, Eurostar is in competition with airlines, most of which will be using young, modern fleets, which wlll be renewed after just a decade or so of operation. Hardly surprising that renewing the bulk of the Eurostar sets was an attractive option. I'm only surprised that they have not renewed the entire fleet, as I can't see the logic in retaining just a few of the 373s - unless the intention is to use these on seasonal leisure services, with lower utilization that can be met with the older sets. There may be other reasons, but I haven't seen what they are.

 

[jayiscupid]

Twice a day to Amsterdam is a pretty miserable frequency. That's hardly likely to attract many business travellers

Are the 373s really in such a bad condition that withdrawal makes sense?

It's common for High Speed Trains to be replaced after 20-30 years. DB is replacing their ICE1 fleet over the next few years which have just turned 25.

Most Japanese Shinkansen sets are withdrawn before they turn 20 due to the high intensity services they perform. On the main Tokaido from Tokyo to Osaka the newest fleet is used on the premium express services and the older fleets are cascaded down to semi fast or stopping services.
The 16 coach JR Series 500s were constructed 1995 and went into service in 1997. They were withdrawn from mainline service in 2010 and now operate as 8 car stopping services on the west of Japan.

When new trains are that much more efficient and cheaper to maintain it doesn't make sense to keep repairing the older ones.

 

[najaB]

IF the 374s hadn't been ordered, they would presumably have just refurbished the existing stock, which is what usually happens with trains when they reach midlife. It's not as if the existing trains are fundamentally inadequate OR that growth on the existing routes is so great that they need new trains.

The business logic was quite simple. They had a fleet of (numbers made up) 30 trains that were approaching their mid-life refit. At the same time, they intended to add new services that would require (another made up number) 5 additional trains. Complicating matters, the existing fleet couldn't operate the new services through not having the necessary equipment.

So, the options were:

1. Refit exisitng fleet and not operate the new services
2. Refit existing fleet and buy a small sub-fleet of new trains to operate the new services
3. Buy a fleet of new trains and refit a small residual sub-fleet of old trains
4. Buy a completely new fleet of trains

Option 1 had the lowest capital cost but wouldn't help to grow the business. Option 4 had the highest capital cost. Option 2 had the second-lowest capital cost but meant that the per-unit cost of the new fleet would be much higher, and they would be up a creek if one of the new fleet went out of serivce.

So option 3 makes the most sense and that's what they've done. (I know, more of that logic and common sense.)

 

[Mikey C]

However they would still have needed a new train for the planned services to Holland and Germany. And unlike the majority of UK services, Eurostar is in competition with airlines, most of which will be using young, modern fleets, which wlll be renewed after just a decade or so of operation. Hardly surprising that renewing the bulk of the Eurostar sets was an attractive option. I'm only surprised that they have not renewed the entire fleet, as I can't see the logic in retaining just a few of the 373s - unless the intention is to use these on seasonal leisure services, with lower utilization that can be met with the older sets. There may be other reasons, but I haven't seen what they are.

LCC carriers like Ryanair might turn over their planes quickly (to avoid the major maintenance checks), but the main carriers like BA and Lufthansa keep their short haul planes for 20 years. If the interior looks tatty, you refurbish it and most passengers think their in a new plane!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The business logic was quite simple. They had a fleet of (numbers made up) 30 trains that were approaching their mid-life refit. At the same time, they intended to add new services that would require (another made up number) 5 additional trains. Complicating matters, the existing fleet couldn't operate the new services through not having the necessary equipment.

So, the options were:

1. Refit exisitng fleet and not operate the new services
2. Refit existing fleet and buy a small sub-fleet of new trains to operate the new services
3. Buy a fleet of new trains and refit a small residual sub-fleet of old trains
4. Buy a completely new fleet of trains

Option 1 had the lowest capital cost but wouldn't help to grow the business. Option 4 had the highest capital cost. Option 2 had the second-lowest capital cost but meant that the per-unit cost of the new fleet would be much higher, and they would be up a creek if one of the new fleet went out of serivce.

So option 3 makes the most sense and that's what they've done. (I know, more of that logic and common sense.)

Option 2 WAS the plan. They only bought 10 trains initially, as they were for additional services NOT fleet replacement. They only later topped this up by 7 units and even this isn't enough to replace all the fleet.

To me this suggests a complete change of plan. They realised that the additional services would be delayed and now unlikely to need all 10 374s, so decided to use them for fleet replacement instead.

 

[najaB]

Option 2 WAS the plan. They only bought 10 trains initially, as they were for additional services NOT fleet replacement. They only later topped this up by 7 units and even this isn't enough to replace all the fleet.

To me this suggests a complete change of plan.

No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. The second option has the lowest capital cost, but doesn't make sense with the changes to the market. They were committed to taking a small number of very expensive trains that weren't really needed, as well as spending a lot on refurbishing the existing fleet - might as well change it to a larger number of slightly-less expensive new trains and a less comprehensive refurbishment of the smaller existing fleet.

 

[Mikey C]

No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. The second option has the lowest capital cost, but doesn't make sense with the changes to the market. They were committed to taking a small number of very expensive trains that weren't really needed, as well as spending a lot on refurbishing the existing fleet - might as well change it to a larger number of slightly-less expensive new trains and a less comprehensive refurbishment of the smaller existing fleet.

Which is why I wonder whether the withdrawal of the 373s was necessary, especially as they weren't worked especially intensively, but rather that this was because they now had too many trains. 27 current units of 373s will be replaced by 17 374s and 8 373s, so an overall reduction of 2 units despite the additional services to be operated

Basically they bought 10 374s for new services, then realised that they didn't need most of them for the new services, so changed their plan . Indeed, I wonder how many of them will ever work beyond Paris and Brussels.

If the 373s are that bad, and a harmonised fleet is a benefit, when why not order a few more 374s and withdraw them all?

 

[33Hz]

If the company is just about profitable (£55m profit on £867m turnover, i.e. 6%, according to the last published results) in a good year and now they've had a downturn, it seems to me unwise to spend over £1bn on a new fleet. You might just about break even before the next lot are due to be scrapped...

 

[D365]

... it seems to me unwise to spend over £1bn on a new fleet.

But you'd have to spend a similar amount overhauling the Class 373s anyway.

 

[absolutelymilk]

To save people talking rubbish a 374 has the following stats
Weight 970 tons
Length 399m
Power 16mw

Any chance you have a source for that? I would like to add it to Wikipedia

 

[najaB]

If the company is just about profitable (£55m profit on £867m turnover, i.e. 6%, according to the last published results) in a good year and now they've had a downturn, it seems to me unwise to spend over £1bn on a new fleet. You might just about break even before the next lot are due to be scrapped...

Thing is, they would've placed the order before the slowdown. Cancelling the order now would likely carry significant financial penalties.

Hopefully the additional finance costs will be partially offset by lower operating costs.

 

[chris11256]

Does anyone know if the 374s operate services to Disneyland Paris? I'm going in December and wondering what I'll get.

 

[BananaRepublic]

When Eurostar placed the initial order for the first batch of 10 Class 374's, they stated that 14 sets of Class 373's would be withdrawn from use (company annual report 2010-11).
That would have left 13 to undergo both the mid-life major overhaul and interior refurbishment, although I seem to remember press reports at the time suggesting 14 would undergo the work.
As we know, they subsequently ordered another 7 Class 374's.

Just for the record, the trains structures are listed as being depreciated over 30 years, with a major overhaul depreciated over 15 years. Therefore mid-life was passed some time ago.
Values can be readjusted downwards during such a period.
Financially, the odds appear to be stacked against overhauling and refurbishing more than a handful of the older trains, especially when you add in factors such as general condition, corrosion, electrical and electronic obsolescence, increased maintenance costs, reduced ambitions for growth etc, etc.

 

[33Hz]

But you'd have to spend a similar amount overhauling the Class 373s anyway.

The amount they are spending to refurb the 8x 373s they are keeping is about a quarter of the cost of the 10x 374s they ordered in the first tranche - and that goes above and beyond what was really needed (IMHO the old interiors are far nicer and just needed a spruce up).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thing is, they would've placed the order before the slowdown. Cancelling the order now would likely carry significant financial penalties.

The prudent thing to do would have been not to order so many trains to wipe out your profits for the next 20 years even in a good year - especially before establishing things like immigration controls and other barriers to expanding your service.

 

[TRAX]

Does anyone know if the 374s operate services to Disneyland Paris? I'm going in December and wondering what I'll get.

They don't.

 

[chris11256]

They don't.

That's a shame, but thanks for the info.

 

[TRAX]

One might still find the odd 374 there, though. Play your chance.

 

[Hadders]

Had my first trip on a class 374 yesterday evening between Lille and St Pancras. Overall I wasn't impressed. My observations:

- the interior was 'too white' and plastic
- interior lighting was too bright and harsh, especially when set against the white interior of the train
- insufficient leg room
- the seat back tables are positioned too low down meaning they can't be folded down flat as your legs get in the way
- insufficient number of tables. There were only two bays of seats at tables per carriage - all other seats were airline.
- poor seat to window alignment meaning many passengers will have no window view - only white plastic
- 'rattling/buzzing' noise from some of the fixtures when the PA system was used.

Overall I was very disappointed and it was by far the most uncomfortable train if the 4 I had been on during my trip to southern France (class 373, duplex TGV and traditional TGV). I expected better for a new train operating a flagship international service.

 

[33Hz]

100% agree. I had a chance to travel on it a second time recently and my opinion didn't change. Much worse than the 373 which I travel on regularly.