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Is it compulsory to put your ticket through a ticket barrier?

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Abpj17

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It should be possible to apply online for a replacement ticket and receive it in the post. That is how it works with debit cards.

Debit cards are equivalent to smart cards. The 'old' card can be blacklisted/blocked centrally based on a unique identifier and enforced at the gateline.

Paper tickets are closer to cash. You need to verify and take away the originals before replacing with an equivalent. (And it would be a pain to be without a season ticket for 1 - 4 weeks while the postal exchange is dealt with)

Another thing to tip the balance towards smart cards...
 
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najaB

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That is a valid ticket. They would take it off you and reissue it on the first occurrence of it not working.
So I'm either without my season ticket for the week-plus that it takes to replace it by mail, or I have to delay my day by going to the ticket office and waiting while they replace it there.
I was envisaging that the rail company would take a photocopy to see whether the barriers needed to be reprogrammed.
Given that the barriers read the magnetic strip rather than the printing I still can't see what use a photocopy would be.
 

noddingdonkey

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Aren't barriers being upgraded with barcode scanners for use with m-tickets?

Just print a similar barcode on the front of the season which can be scanned and that should solve the problem? No mechanical contact required.
 

Antman

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I assumed that that post was a joke? What is there for the BBC to expose - and why would anyone care!

That's what I thought, some staff wave people through without even looking at the ticket but I'd hardly think it's worthy of a BBC documentary.
 
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<snip>

Barriers only work well with smart card ticketing.

barriers and long term seasons on smart cards is somethign which would be a sensible move for for the majority of rail users paper mag stripe tickets are not an issue ...

but then again the issue of the single issue lens is out and about ...
 

KTHV

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Just get blank magstripe stock - it does exist.

Anyone with a Trainline Business onsite account (as we do) has them.

In fact - there's a Trainline supplied Newbury Data Printer and about 6 boxes of blank orange & whites in our server room about 30 yards away as we speak
 
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I have seen many people who (mainly with season tickets) just keep their tickets in their ticket holders and show it to the person at the barriers which is easier and quicker. Most staff that i have seen have never had a problem with this. I cant see any reason why this should ever cause a problem. There are always going to be a few jobsworths who make things harder but the majority of staff dont have a problem.
 

JonathanH

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I have seen many people who (mainly with season tickets) just keep their tickets in their ticket holders and show it to the person at the barriers which is easier and quicker. Most staff that i have seen have never had a problem with this. I cant see any reason why this should ever cause a problem. There are always going to be a few jobsworths who make things harder but the majority of staff dont have a problem.

Yes, but it is ignorant of the purpose of the barriers which is to check tickets. A cursory glance from a member of staff may identify different issues but whilst I am sure most people who do this have perfectly valid tickets, it provides an easy way for the minority who don't have valid tickets to slip through in between.

There is a place for both human and mechanical checks of tickets at the same locations from time to time.
 

Signal Head

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Doesn't resolve the issue of the TOC not providing a ticket which is fit for purpose, though, does it? The increase in gates has no doubt not helped the situation, as the physical act of putting the ticket in/out of the wallet is what causes the problem. If the wording gets worn down, then either one has to visit the ticket office (inconvenient) or potentially get harassed every time a manual ticket inspection occurs.

My local station got gates last year. The first morning of operation I offered my season for inspection (in the sleeve inside my wallet), only to be told it had to be put through the gate. Since keeping it in the sleeve (and extracting and replacing it four times a day) will result in my wallet sleeves disintegrating, it now lives in one of the open 'pockets', meaning it has to be pulled out each time for both manual inspections and gates. The corners take a beating, and the print fades. I don't want it in a separate holder, as I'm bothered it will get lost.

On that first morning,when I objected to ruining my wallet by constantly removing the ticket, one of the staff on duty told me they were getting tickets with barcodes on (the gates have scanners), so that I'd be able to scan it still in the sleeve - great, problem solved - but no, she didn't know when that was happening (it's now over a year and no barcodes yet).

I asked again some months later, another staff member replied "oh, they [VT management] tell us all sorts, doesn't mean it's true".

It doesn't usually take too long before the ticket won't pass through the gates anyway, so then they have to accept a manual inspection.
 

najaB

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Yes, but it is ignorant of the purpose of the barriers which is to check tickets.
Is the purpose of barriers actually to check tickets? Or is it to control the flow of passengers and provide a disincentive to fare dodge? If their main purpose is determining ticket validity then a lot of them are very poor at their job!
 

Signal Head

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With the best will in the world, it is impossible for gateline staff to know all the intricacies and minutiae of every single ticket in the system.
With that in mind, it is therefore impossible to 'properly check tickets'.

Seems the new VT gates don't do a proper job either, I recently put a long distance ticket through the gates at the station at which the service I was boarding originated, the ticket didn't start until a later station.

I didn't even realise what I had done until after I had passed thorugh the gate, (I have a season which covers the portion in between so no irregularity).

I'm guessing a manual inspection would have refused it, at which point I would have realised and showed my season.
 

azz7008

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Although plastic has the benefit of not relying on a battery not having run out by the time you want to go home.

That's a depressing thought, that in the 21st century there is still this archaic idea that devices cannot be trusted. How many opportunities such as power sockets that you go past on your journey or in your day. Failing that there is also battery packs you can buy to make sure it doesn't happen. Mobile tickets need to be rolled out across the network (in one centralised app) and hopefully eventually paper tickets should be eradicated. If you can work out how to catch a train you should be able to download/use an app.
 

azz7008

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And if you're elderly, and not confident in using a smartphone? Or don't have a mobile at all?

You'd be questioning how someone is able to navigate a self service ticket machine (as that is the only option in many stations) or working out all of the different types of tickets you can buy, yet seemingly unable to use a mobile phone.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would like to make a point that it needs to be in one centralised ticket app where you view tickets from all operators.
 

b0b

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It is compulsory to comply with a request to do so, if you wish to exit the station.

National Rail Conditions of Travel said:
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company, hand over for inspection your Ticket and any Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identication which your Ticket requires

I don't see anything that requires you to put a ticket through a barrier? I can't believe that staff would actually prevent you leaving with a valid ticket if you've complied with the above ... what am I missing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As mentioned above, the bye-laws include a requirement to comply with any reasonable request made by an authorised member of staff, and arguing that passing a mag stripe ticket though a ticket gate is unreasonable, is a very weak argument.

Its unreasonable to delay a passenger with a valid ticket because they choose to have it inspected by staff vs a gate.
 

AlterEgo

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I assumed that that post was a joke? What is there for the BBC to expose - and why would anyone care!

Revenue protection is woeful in many places. At Waterloo, doughnutting is incredibly easy to do on medium distance routes. You could evade thousands of pounds a year in fares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And if you're elderly, and not confident in using a smartphone? Or don't have a mobile at all?

If you're elderly, you're most likely to lose your ticket, but it's never used as an argument against paper ticketing...
 

gazr

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Can you not laminate the one side of the ticket without the magnetic strip, or would that make it too thick to go through the machines? Anyone tried it? Also, when travelling in Holland, their paper tickets worked with the tap gates... how the heck are we behind Holland in technology?
 

Flying Snail

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Can you not laminate the one side of the ticket without the magnetic strip, or would that make it too thick to go through the machines? Anyone tried it? Also, when travelling in Holland, their paper tickets worked with the tap gates... how the heck are we behind Holland in technology?

Disposable thermal print smartcards should be standard now as a full replacement for magstripe tickets. It is stupid that this was not done before the mass introduction of gatelines.
 

Senex

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Disposable thermal print smartcards should be standard now as a full replacement for magstripe tickets. It is stupid that this was not done before the mass introduction of gatelines.
But how typical!
 

najaB

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Disposable thermal print smartcards should be standard now as a full replacement for magstripe tickets. It is stupid that this was not done before the mass introduction of gatelines.
Cost is a factor. They make sense for season tickets but not for the billions of point to point tickets sold annually.
 

swt_passenger

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Disposable thermal print smartcards should be standard now as a full replacement for magstripe tickets. It is stupid that this was not done before the mass introduction of gatelines.

IIRC magstripes on National Rail tickets were incorporated originally to allow for through London journeys on LU, and for use with outboundary London travel cards.

At the time gating of mainline stations commenced in a big way I'd be surprised if anyone entertained altering the entire LU ticketing system to match your suggested technology, even if it were available; so carrying on with magstripes was probably the only practical option at the time.
 

HowardGWR

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Can you not laminate the one side of the ticket without the magnetic strip, or would that make it too thick to go through the machines? Anyone tried it? Also, when travelling in Holland, their paper tickets worked with the tap gates... how the heck are we behind Holland in technology?
Who's we? NL's ticket purchase touch screens are better too.
 

Flying Snail

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Cost is a factor. They make sense for season tickets but not for the billions of point to point tickets sold annually.

It doesn't seem to be an issue for other operators who use them such as Glasgow Underground whose average ticket would be much cheaper than any NR TOC.

IIRC magstripes on National Rail tickets were incorporated originally to allow for through London journeys on LU, and for use with outboundary London travel cards.

At the time gating of mainline stations commenced in a big way I'd be surprised if anyone entertained altering the entire LU ticketing system to match your suggested technology, even if it were available; so carrying on with magstripes was probably the only practical option at the time.

How long have LU had contactless technology? It's only in the last 10 years that gatelines have been installed across the majority of the rail network.

People can come up with any excuses they want but the fact remains that a very substandard system is still being used despite the availability of a number of better systems being available.

Even something as simple as ticket gates printing their location, time and date on the reverse of tickets would go a long way to stopping multiple use of open tickets.

The current system is unable to properly differentiate valid from non-valid ticket to any acceptable level of accuracy, is no good at detecting fake tickets or fraudulent use so what is the point of it?
 
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najaB

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It doesn't seem to be an issue for other operators who use them such as Glasgow Underground whose average ticket would be much cheaper than any NR TOC.
They also sell many fewer of them than the combined sales of all the TOCs.
 

Flying Snail

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They also sell many fewer of them than the combined sales of all the TOCs.

What difference does that make?

The only relevant cost is the difference per ticket, if SPT can absorb it for a £1.60 single, £3 return or £4 day ticket then it can't be a huge % cost on an average NR paper ticket which would be far higher than those.

Much of the cost could be recouped through the removal of all the mechanical parts of the ticket readers once magstripe is no longer used.
 

EM2

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You'd be questioning how someone is able to navigate a self service ticket machine (as that is the only option in many stations) or working out all of the different types of tickets you can buy, yet seemingly unable to use a mobile phone.
No, I'd be questioning how someone who is not conversant with technology is expected to buy the correct ticket from a TVM too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Its unreasonable to delay a passenger with a valid ticket because they choose to have it inspected by staff vs a gate.
If it is their choice to have the ticket inspected manually, then it is their choice to be delayed.
 
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