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30th birthday Bus Privatisation in England

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overthewater

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In scotland it happened a bit ealier ;)

I cant say overall we would be better off if the councils were still running the services, I doubt it would have been better.

Its seem to have been a very low key event today.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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In scotland it happened a bit ealier ;)

I cant say overall we would be better off if the councils were still running the services, I doubt it would have been better.

Sorry to be exacting but it wasn't privatisation.

26th October 1986 was when bus services were de-regulated NOT privatised. However, there had been some trial areas used (e.g. Hereford) in advance of the 1985 Transport Act and some areas were also enabled earlier in 1986, notably in Glasgow but also Darlington (among others).

At that time, the PTEs and municipals were placed in the control of arms length companies though with the councils as the shareholder. The NBC and SBG were already in that position. IIRC, the only NBC bus operator at de-regulation to have been privatised was Devon General.

My late father worked for an NBC firm and I did spend half a shift with him on Sunday 26th October. Some things stayed the same, many things changed overnight with routes, frequencies, operators etc. Interesting times!

BTW, I agree that despite the sepia tinted warmth of yesteryear, the bus industry had been in a state of decline for many years by that point. They were hideously inefficient and many were loss makers propped up with a raft of overt and hidden subsidies. Also, since 1980, the government had been tightening the screw in that new vehicles to many municipal or NBC firms had slowed noticeably with the latter having a much lower PVR from the various MAP schemes.
 

Bletchleyite

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In scotland it happened a bit ealier ;)

I cant say overall we would be better off if the councils were still running the services, I doubt it would have been better.

Even though I am in support of re-regulation (not nationalisation specifically, though I would remove the bar to self-operation if felt more economic) I am not convinced that in the atmosphere of the day we would have had a better outcome.

The thing I do still think was a shame in a way was that the "Malta model" of individual self-employed drivers having more pride in what they did was not followed - the 56 days notice requirement put paid to this as nobody within their right mind would take the risk. Was the 56 day thing in place from day one?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Even though I am in support of re-regulation (not nationalisation specifically, though I would remove the bar to self-operation if felt more economic) I am not convinced that in the atmosphere of the day we would have had a better outcome.

The thing I do still think was a shame in a way was that the "Malta model" of individual self-employed drivers having more pride in what they did was not followed - the 56 days notice requirement put paid to this as nobody within their right mind would take the risk. Was the 56 day thing in place from day one?

Nicholas Ridley was originally in favour of no time period between registration and operation. His view was of a fully deregulated environment (subject to safety and compliance of course) whereby people could operate as and when.

It was the bus industry and especially local authorities who lobbied for the 56 day limit. The reasoning being that you could have a commercial service one day that was suddenly withdrawn with no opportunity to replace with a supported service. In fact, you could have left for work in the morning and then find you had no return in the evening as the operator had elected not to operate!
 

Bletchleyite

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It was the bus industry and especially local authorities who lobbied for the 56 day limit. The reasoning being that you could have a commercial service one day that was suddenly withdrawn with no opportunity to replace with a supported service. In fact, you could have left for work in the morning and then find you had no return in the evening as the operator had elected not to operate!

That might certainly have been an issue - but it did have the downside of preventing true entrepreneurism, leaving the industry made up largely of the big groups, small and disreputable operators willing to disregard the rules until they get booted (UK North and the likes), and small but reputable operators who have found a niche somewhere (often low-cost tenders) that sometimes doesn't last.

The industry would have been rather different if people like hobbyists could have bought a low-cost vehicle and simply decided to go out and run a bus service when they were free. It might well have made serving some rural locations much more viable, for instance - if it was easy for them to do so, I could quite see a hobbyist getting into running an obscure service that perhaps just about breaks even that a big group wouldn't touch but might actually provide the likes of rural pensioners with a lifeline.

Oddly, in the context of re-regulation being mooted in some areas, modern technology might have provided an option to make short-term changes viable - a requirement for them to be entered into a timetable system 24 hours in advance of operation (and then a penalty for not operating an entered service) would be much more feasible for the little guy.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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That might certainly have been an issue - but it did have the downside of preventing true entrepreneurism, leaving the industry made up largely of the big groups, small and disreputable operators willing to disregard the rules, and small but reputable operators who have found a niche somewhere that sometimes doesn't last.

The industry would have been rather different if people like hobbyists could have bought a low-cost vehicle and simply decided to go out and run a bus service when they were free. It might well have made serving some rural locations much more viable, for instance.

Oddly, in the context of re-regulation being mooted in some areas, modern technology might have provided an option to make short-term changes viable - a requirement for them to be entered into a timetable system 24 hours in advance of operation (and then a penalty for not operating an entered service) would be much more feasible for the little guy.

There is a low cost vehicle that is available when people are free. It's called a taxi!

As someone who remembers very vividly the days of pre and post de-regulation, it is extremely easy to think of these halcyon days of bus travel. It wasn't so. Maybe in some PTE areas where there was a lot of external subsidy (and back door subsidy too), yes service provision was comprehensive. Certainly not in the Shires and as for innovation.... well, it was pretty thin on the ground before 1986. That, and a raft of obscure rules that dictated that if you were stood at a certain stop that you could catch a Corpy bus but none of the three NBC vehicles that passed before it, or couldn't make a journey wholly within an area because of protectionism.

Also, there was precious little in terms of marketing. Instead, we suddenly had a raft of van derived minibuses, high frequencies, memorable names (remember Hoppanstopper?). It also meant that suddenly a lot of deadwood got cleared away and there was genuine service innovation.

Of course, there were the hotspots of competition and the arrival of operators. Yes, some were cowboy-ish but a lot actually weren't. They were established coach firms who diversified, and in many cases, former PTE staff and drivers who sunk their redundancy into doing what they knew best and were certainly more fleet of foot than the established order (e.g. SYT vs South Riding, Yorkshire Terrier, Andrews).
 

Bletchleyite

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There is a low cost vehicle that is available when people are free. It's called a taxi!

I mean if I wanted to go and run a bus service around the local villages on Saturday because I'm not doing anything and could make a couple of quid out of it. There could have been a fair bit of that sort of thing.
 

Tetchytyke

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That might certainly have been an issue - but it did have the downside of preventing true entrepreneurism

Is running what you want, when you want "entrepreneurial spirit", or it is just taking the pee? It's a difficult one.

On the one hand, it's hard for passengers to plan things with 56 days notice. You buy a house thinking it has good bus links and then, with little warning, the bus company pulls the route. I saw it where I lived in Northumberland recently, where Arriva pulled the evening buses on the main route to the nearest town. We also saw it in West Yorkshire where WYPTE spent a lot of money upgrading bus stops with raised kerbs and shelters, at the request of First, only for First to pull the buses from that route a few months later.

56 days' notice is a bit of an exaggeration, too, given the notice is only published in the N&P lists and the Traffic Commissioner doesn't publish the revised timetable. So with 56 days' notice I know the bus operator is changing the times, but I don't know if they're slightly retiming one morning bus or if they're binning the evening service. When Arriva binned the evening service on my route the notice was more like 21 days. Most people have their work rotas fixed more in advance than that.

On the other hand, it does prevent companies trying something out. It's a bit harder to justify a trial if you're going to be stuck with it for two months even if it doesn't work out.

Maybe the solution is to designate something a trial service, allowing an exemption from the 56 days for a limited period. But this is probably all a bit off topic!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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There was originally a 3 month block on anyone registering any new service whilst the changeover was sorted out. After that the notification was 42 days for a number of years, before changing to 56 days.

Correct. There was a moratorium on changes until end January 1987 to provide some stability; I'd forgotten that. There were some real unattainable timetabling horrors at my dad's depot (blame the local authority) that they had to endure until the Jan

And yes, the original period was 42 days for many years though when it changed, I can't recall.
 

Busaholic

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If the intention of deregulation, followed by privatisation, was to allow local enterprises to be set up, operate routes and be happy ever after, then it could be said to have already failed 25 to 30 years ago. It was a fairy tale to be ranked along with the Brothers Grimm, but then chain-smoking Nicholas Ridley thought the normal rules didn't apply to him: difficult to say 'told you so' to a dead man of course.
 

carlberry

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I mean if I wanted to go and run a bus service around the local villages on Saturday because I'm not doing anything and could make a couple of quid out of it. There could have been a fair bit of that sort of thing.

It'll be really good for all the villagers to come out every day and see if anybody is willing to run a bus that day. And then they can go back home (if they havent died of cold) reasured that, even if nobody bothered today, somebody might bother tomorrow, or next week!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the intention of deregulation, followed by privatisation, was to allow local enterprises to be set up, operate routes and be happy ever after, then it could be said to have already failed 25 to 30 years ago. It was a fairy tale to be ranked along with the Brothers Grimm, but then chain-smoking Nicholas Ridley thought the normal rules didn't apply to him: difficult to say 'told you so' to a dead man of course.

The intention was to reduce the power of the unions (which it did with the consequental reduction in drivers pay) and to prove that 'the market' would provide everything, it didnt matter what size of company did it.
 

matt_world2004

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Yes, letting private operators set the fares has really worked out well The 724 from Heathrow to Uxbridge costs £10 whereas the A10 that has its fares and frequency set by a nationalised passenger transport authority £1.50
 

Bletchleyite

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It'll be really good for all the villagers to come out every day and see if anybody is willing to run a bus that day. And then they can go back home (if they havent died of cold) reasured that, even if nobody bothered today, somebody might bother tomorrow, or next week!

Do you not think that the person who wishes to make a few quid out of doing so might actually consider to let the villagers know when he was going to do it? :)

Could have ended up a bit Albanian-style I'll give you, but that does sort of work - Bob said that Jim had been told the bus would run this week - and Bob is usually right!
 

Tetchytyke

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The 724 from Heathrow to Uxbridge costs £10 whereas the A10 that has its fares and frequency set by a nationalised passenger transport authority £1.50

That's purely to discourage people from clogging up the 724 on the short hop to Uxbridge. It's the same deal with the Carousel A40.
 

nerd

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The intention was to reduce the power of the unions (which it did with the consequental reduction in drivers pay) and to prove that 'the market' would provide everything, it didnt matter what size of company did it.

The main intention was to reduce public subsidy to bus operations. Ridley, along with many others of his generation, saw the bus industry as being locked into a superceded economy of large scale collective enterprise, whose basic rationale was being undermined by the growth in access to private cars. By forcing public authorities to free themselves from direct operations; and by compelling a separation between commercial and subsidised routes, he sought to limit overall subsidy, forcing the unwanted parts of the industry to go to the wall, or be radically restructured.

He was helped in this by a series of cheerleaders for free-enterprise bus operation; and it is intriguing (for me at least) to compare the predictions these savants made for a deregulated bus industry, compared to what happened.

The proponents of deregulation argued that buses had become so heavily regulated, and so far under the control of producer interests for so long, that the reality of late 20th century bus customers was not being met. Expose bus operations to free market competition, and a whole apparatus of industry characteristics would be exposed as existing solely for the benefit or convenience of producers.

So they predicted:

- Buses would get smaller. The classic double-decker was seen as obsolete; over-specialised and much too big, a hangover from the days of conductor ticketing. In a deregulated world, much cheaper single-deck busses could be obtained as conversions of standard goods vehicles; which could then be maintained with the minimum of specialist skills and facilites.

- Buses would run more frequently at peak, and service frequencies would vary more. Smaller buses would reduce overcapacity off-peak, but would imply more services at peak.

- The route, not the network. Bus operations would split into individual routes, and each route would be a separate enterprise. Competition would then lead to minimising fares for each single route.

- cross-subsidy would end. Each route would stand on its own, either commercial or publicly subsidised, so no passenger would be subsidising another on a different route.

- all high demand routes would be served by multiple competing operators. Switching to smaller vehicles would reduce barriers to market entry, so it would become impossible to protect profitable routes against competitors.

- lower demand routes would be rigorously cut back. Most bus operations were seen as retaining extensive networks of routes for which there would never be economic demand. These would close.

- weekly/monthly tickets would end. Passengers would prefer to board the next bus to come at the cheapest single fare they could get, so they would not buy weekly tickets with one operator that they could not use on another operator.

Bus operators would become radically smaller, with a substantial proportion of single bus owner-drivers.

Underpinning this is the assumption that bus users interests were almost entirely restricted to fares and frequency; and hence that all 'quality' factors - system integration, passenger comfort, stop accessibility, service speed - were spurious constructions of producer interests.
 
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matt_world2004

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That's purely to discourage people from clogging up the 724 on the short hop to Uxbridge. It's the same deal with the Carousel A40.

Even Watford Junction to Heathrow Airport on London bus services costs £1.50 compared to the £10 for the 724.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The main intention was to reduce public subsidy to bus operations. Ridley, along with many others of his generation, saw the bus industry as being locked into a superceded economy of large scale collective enterprise, whose basic rationale was being undermined by the growth in access to private cars. By forcing public authorities to free themselves from direct operations; and by compelling a separation between commercial and subsidised routes, he sought to limit overall subsidy, forcing the unwanted parts of the industry to go to the wall, or be radically restructured.

He was helped in this by a series of cheerleaders for free-enterprise bus operation; and it is intriguing (for me at least) to compare the predictions these savants made for a deregulated bus industry, compared to what happened.

The proponents of deregulation argued that buses had become so heavily regulated, and so far under the control of producer interests for so long, that the reality of late 20th century bus customers was not being met. Expose bus operations to free market competition, and a whole apparatus of industry characteristics would be exposed as existing solely for the benefit or convenience of producers.

So they predicted:

- Buses would get smaller. The classic double-decker was seen as obsolete; over-specialised and much too big, a hangover from the days of conductor ticketing. In a deregulated world, much cheaper single-deck busses could be obtained as conversions of standard goods vehicles; which could then be maintained with the minimum of specialist skills and facilites.

- Buses would run more frequently at peak, and service frequencies would vary more. Smaller buses would reduce overcapacity off-peak, but would imply more services at peak.

- The route, not the network. Bus operations would split into individual routes, and each route would be a separate enterprise. Competition would then lead to minimising fares for each single route.

- cross-subsidy would end. Each route would stand on its own, either commercial or publicly subsidised, so no passenger would be subsidising another on a different route.

- all high demand routes would be served by multiple competing operators. Switching to smaller vehicles would reduce barriers to market entry, so it would become impossible to protect profitable routes against competitors.

- lower demand routes would be rigorously cut back. Most bus operations were seen as retaining extensive networks of routes for which there would never be economic demand. These would close.

- weekly/monthly tickets would end. Passengers would prefer to board the next bus to come at the cheapest single fare they could get, so they would not buy weekly tickets with one operator that they could not use on another operator.

Bus operators would become radically smaller, with a substantial proportion of single bus owner-drivers.

Underpinning this is the assumption that bus users interests were almost entirely restricted to fares and frequency; and hence that all 'quality' factors - system integration, passenger comfort, stop accessibility, service speed - were spurious constructions of producer interests.

and apart from ticket fragmentation outside London precisely none of that happened. and ticket fragmentation is not a good thing if you need to get more than one bus to work or need to take buses at different times of the day.
 

Tetchytyke

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Even Watford Junction to Heathrow Airport on London bus services costs £1.50 compared to the £10 for the 724.

It's a minimum of two buses- the 258 and the 140- from Watford to Heathrow, which is £3 single. The £10 fare is all the way from Harlow to Heathrow.

There are plenty of good examples of price gouging, I'm not sure the Green Line 724 is one of them tbh.
 

plcd1

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@ Nerd - an interesting list of factors. Let's take them in turn and see if the 1986 brains on sticks were right.

- Subsidy. Well yes it has declined but concessionary revenue and BSOG remain and are significant earners for many operators. Blame Gordon Brown for the concessionary scheme issues.

- Smaller buses. Pretty much completely wrong on that. Double deckers remain a significant force in many fleets. The demand for low floor vehicles has pushed up vehicle sizes.

- More frequency variation. Pretty much wrong on that. Congestion means peak services are often less frequent than off peak. I don't see vast variations in frequencies at route level because it's easier to market easy to remember frequencies.

- Route not network. Varies this one. Where an operator has a local monopoly or dominance then networks are marketed. Obviously viability / profitability is assessed at route level given the way investment in service levels / vehicle specs now operates.

- Cross subsidy gone. Ridley, of course, expected no cross subsidy within routes so contra peak direction buses would run oos to then take up busy peak direction jnys. Of course this doesn't happen - operators run the same levels both ways on almost all services. By Ridley's definition there is cross subsidy at route level and I think there may be some at network level with some operators. Clearly the large scale cross subsidy which supported longer service hours / bigger networks has gone - to the detriment of the poor souls who relied on such services.

- High levels of competition on busy routes. Nope not really. Existed short term until competition was crushed out of the way. Only a few examples remain of multi operator competition and even in Oxford it has been "regulated" to reduce city centre congestion. Barriers to entry are immensely high because of the ability of incumbents to sustain high levels of competition and protect their investment. Running 1 or 2 bph against a 12bph service is pointless IMO.

- Low demand routes. Yep pretty much destroyed in many places and more destruction to come courtesy of funding cuts.

- Weekly / monthly tickets. Pretty much survived and prospered at operator level as a way of buying customer loyalty. Multi operator ticketing has been neglected and, if you a competition authority, actively discouraged.

- Operators much smaller. Hardly. A few survive in odd places like Harlow and in some rural corners but big groups predominate.

- Quality factors. Ironically much of what you list is important to bus users and has been emphasised and promoted by bus companies and some local authorities.

So overall a complete failure if set it against the "savants'" desires. :roll:
 

TheGrandWazoo

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@ Nerd - an interesting list of factors. Let's take them in turn and see if the 1986 brains on sticks were right.

- Subsidy. Well yes it has declined but concessionary revenue and BSOG remain and are significant earners for many operators. Blame Gordon Brown for the concessionary scheme issues.

- Smaller buses. Pretty much completely wrong on that. Double deckers remain a significant force in many fleets. The demand for low floor vehicles has pushed up vehicle sizes.

- More frequency variation. Pretty much wrong on that. Congestion means peak services are often less frequent than off peak. I don't see vast variations in frequencies at route level because it's easier to market easy to remember frequencies.

- Route not network. Varies this one. Where an operator has a local monopoly or dominance then networks are marketed. Obviously viability / profitability is assessed at route level given the way investment in service levels / vehicle specs now operates.

- Cross subsidy gone. Ridley, of course, expected no cross subsidy within routes so contra peak direction buses would run oos to then take up busy peak direction jnys. Of course this doesn't happen - operators run the same levels both ways on almost all services. By Ridley's definition there is cross subsidy at route level and I think there may be some at network level with some operators. Clearly the large scale cross subsidy which supported longer service hours / bigger networks has gone - to the detriment of the poor souls who relied on such services.

- High levels of competition on busy routes. Nope not really. Existed short term until competition was crushed out of the way. Only a few examples remain of multi operator competition and even in Oxford it has been "regulated" to reduce city centre congestion. Barriers to entry are immensely high because of the ability of incumbents to sustain high levels of competition and protect their investment. Running 1 or 2 bph against a 12bph service is pointless IMO.

- Low demand routes. Yep pretty much destroyed in many places and more destruction to come courtesy of funding cuts.

- Weekly / monthly tickets. Pretty much survived and prospered at operator level as a way of buying customer loyalty. Multi operator ticketing has been neglected and, if you a competition authority, actively discouraged.

- Operators much smaller. Hardly. A few survive in odd places like Harlow and in some rural corners but big groups predominate.

- Quality factors. Ironically much of what you list is important to bus users and has been emphasised and promoted by bus companies and some local authorities.

So overall a complete failure if set it against the "savants'" desires. :roll:

First of all, I don't think you can say it is a complete failure even against those stated desires (though confused by your savant reference)

Of course, it's almost impossible to predict what can happen especially with external factors etc. Had you predicted what would happen in 1956, what would you have expected to happen? That bus journeys would decline from 15.5m to 5.6m over that time? That there would be factors such as massive complacency in bus operators, fare increases outstripping inflation for reasons attributable and independent of the operators, and then social factors (e.g. TV to a mass market destroying evening leisure trips to cinemas) etc

BSOG does indeed still exist but the overall level of subsidy is much reduced. However, and I do get bored of saying it, ENCTS remuneration is NOT a subsidy. It's payment for services provided.

Vehicle design has indeed changed and, to be honest, such a thing tends to be cyclical. In the 1960s, it was standee single decks (because of union rules etc regarding what was called OMO). By the late 70's, deckers were coming back into vogue heavily as staff shortages meant headways were widened or to improve efficiencies. Then we had minibuses, then into the super mini as the Dart appeared, and now back to deckers. However, when you look outside London (and perhaps a few other locations), the number of deckers is still much less than it used to be. And yes, you're right to cite the issue of low floor design as pushing the designs to be larger to accommodate the same number of passengers.

Cross subsidy in it's broadest sense has gone and that is actually no bad thing in some respects. The idea that a good route should be milked and adversely affected to prop up some dead duck has been demonstrated to be counter productive. Arguably, it is better to be upfront and levy tax and then subsidise which is what was happening until this austerity agenda, a hollowing out of state support for ideological reasons under the camouflage of some necessity.

The consolidation of operators was ALWAYS going to happen. As in any market, the law of duopoly kicks in unless the authorities act at a certain point! Therefore, we have some large players and that was always going to happen unless they legislated (which they didn't). Same as the ENCTS debacle was an example of ignoring price elasticity on demand. Why politicians think economic theory suddenly won't apply....well, perhaps it's just a bit expedient, eh?

That said, there are many more operators than there were even with these obvious statements. My home county of North Yorkshire was home to three main NBC operators viz United, West Yorkshire and West Riding predominantly with only a very few independents (e.g. Handleys of Middleham, Burrells of Newsham, John Smith in Dalton).

Now we have Arriva NE and EYMS (in place of United), Arriva (in place of West Riding) and Transdev and First (in place of West Yorkshire) in the main commercial areas. Moreover, large tracts notably the Vale of York and into the Dales have been vacated by the large groups even before the NYCC subsidy cuts. Instead, we have a raft of lower cost independents instead.

I know what was said prior to deregulation but any prediction of 30 years hence is based only what we know now being extrapolated. The only certainty is that it will be wrong - an affirmation of the wider "Half life of facts".

BTW, whilst I may not agree with all you've said Paul, I can't deny that you have a lot of very valid points!
 

carlberry

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@ Nerd - an interesting list of factors. Let's take them in turn and see if the 1986 brains on sticks were right.

- Subsidy. Well yes it has declined but concessionary revenue and BSOG remain and are significant earners for many operators. Blame Gordon Brown for the concessionary scheme issues.

- Smaller buses. Pretty much completely wrong on that. Double deckers remain a significant force in many fleets. The demand for low floor vehicles has pushed up vehicle sizes.

- More frequency variation. Pretty much wrong on that. Congestion means peak services are often less frequent than off peak. I don't see vast variations in frequencies at route level because it's easier to market easy to remember frequencies.

- Route not network. Varies this one. Where an operator has a local monopoly or dominance then networks are marketed. Obviously viability / profitability is assessed at route level given the way investment in service levels / vehicle specs now operates.

- Cross subsidy gone. Ridley, of course, expected no cross subsidy within routes so contra peak direction buses would run oos to then take up busy peak direction jnys. Of course this doesn't happen - operators run the same levels both ways on almost all services. By Ridley's definition there is cross subsidy at route level and I think there may be some at network level with some operators. Clearly the large scale cross subsidy which supported longer service hours / bigger networks has gone - to the detriment of the poor souls who relied on such services.

- High levels of competition on busy routes. Nope not really. Existed short term until competition was crushed out of the way. Only a few examples remain of multi operator competition and even in Oxford it has been "regulated" to reduce city centre congestion. Barriers to entry are immensely high because of the ability of incumbents to sustain high levels of competition and protect their investment. Running 1 or 2 bph against a 12bph service is pointless IMO.

- Low demand routes. Yep pretty much destroyed in many places and more destruction to come courtesy of funding cuts.

- Weekly / monthly tickets. Pretty much survived and prospered at operator level as a way of buying customer loyalty. Multi operator ticketing has been neglected and, if you a competition authority, actively discouraged.

- Operators much smaller. Hardly. A few survive in odd places like Harlow and in some rural corners but big groups predominate.

- Quality factors. Ironically much of what you list is important to bus users and has been emphasised and promoted by bus companies and some local authorities.

So overall a complete failure if set it against the "savants'" desires. :roll:
30 years on and with the benefit of hindsight it's easy to say all of the above didn't happen. In fact they all did!

Subsidy - cut at the time and stayed low for 10 years, crept up again after 1997 however has recently been all but removed. The concessionary revenue is a subsidy to pensioners, not bus companies
Smaller buses - so the minibus revolution never happened then??? For those who've forgotten (or live in London) thousands of minibuses invaded the streets. The fact that they're mostly gone now is because they're a poor solution however they lasted 5-10 years and, in some areas, were replaced like for like by another generation.
More frequency variation - this does happen, however no more than before
Route not network - the network was mostly abandoned and, even now, very few operators are willing to even hint that other people run services to different part of the same town.
Cross subsidy gone - it may not have gone on a journey to journey level, but has gone at the network level.
High levels of competition - there are very few areas of the country that haven't had competition at some level, however even where it's been useful (Oxford) the local council has stopped it!
Low demand routes - so that worked!.
Operators much smaller. They are! If you look at nearly any area between 1979 and 1986 you'll find the number of independent operators that operate even daily services can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Most operators had been merged into big ones. Since 1986 the number of operators has vastly increased and there's very few big operators (that's operators NOT groups).
 

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Yes, letting private operators set the fares has really worked out well The 724 from Heathrow to Uxbridge costs £10 whereas the A10 that has its fares and frequency set by a nationalised passenger transport authority £1.50
To he fair, Arriva are charged purely for entering TFL land
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matt_world2004

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To he fair, Arriva are charged purely for entering TFL land
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What at a rate of £8.50 a passenger? The London service permit probably don't even cover the bus stops they use and the personal relief facilities at Uxbridge
 

Bletchleyite

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In any case that journey being £1.50 is just one of the "false positives" you get from a flat fare. In such a system you get winners and losers, though at such a low fare mainly winners.

If TfL didn't have a flat fare for buses, and a ticketing system that can't support anything but that without significant and costly work, it would no doubt cost a fair whack more.
 

Busaholic

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The intention was to reduce the power of the unions (which it did with the consequental reduction in drivers pay) and to prove that 'the market' would provide everything, it didnt matter what size of company did it.

It absolutely mattered to the ideologues that the companies should be small, hence forcing Midland Red to be split into four companies for instance. Then with the inevitability of capitalism the companies forced to divorce from each other found they could get back together two or three years later and let financiers, lawyers, etc get rich on the proceeds: the cynical would say the intention of the exercise all along.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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It absolutely mattered to the ideologues that the companies should be small, hence forcing Midland Red to be split into four companies for instance. Then with the inevitability of capitalism the companies forced to divorce from each other found they could get back together two or three years later and let financiers, lawyers, etc get rich on the proceeds: the cynical would say the intention of the exercise all along.

Midland Red was split into 6 companies ;) The four bus operations, plus Express and Carlyle Works

To splitting of the businesses was done for a number of reasons. Firstly, to undermine union strength as Carl said. Also, to try and make them more accountable and responsive.

However, the main reason was simply to try to ensure that no business was so large that it could abuse a dominant position e.g. to ensure there was a competitive environment. That may seem very naive but it was true
 

matt_world2004

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In any case that journey being £1.50 is just one of the "false positives" you get from a flat fare. In such a system you get winners and losers, though at such a low fare mainly winners.

If TfL didn't have a flat fare for buses, and a ticketing system that can't support anything but that without significant and costly work, it would no doubt cost a fair whack more.

The bus hopper system would have given the opportunity to charge more. Yet they chose not to. Plus the 724 is a flat fare too. Watford junction to heathrow is the majority of the route of the 724. Yet using Tfl services comes in at 15% of the cost of the fare set by arriva. Even if tfl used fare zones on buses that matched their rail counterparts in terms of price and location. It would still be cheaper than the 724. The 140/258 using rail fare zones would be a zone 6- Watford junction. Going via zone 5 a fare of £2.90 would be charged.
 
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