Tyne & Wear Metro: Fleet Refurbishment List

[Kite159]

Is the new rolling stock going to be for 2-car units or will Nexus see some sort of sense and order it as fixed formation 4-car units (to increase available space)?

 

[142094]

Very few station platforms are long enough for 3 or 4 car operation, and those that are need DOO equipment improvements to make it safe to work. So unfortunately anything more than 2 car working is unlikely anytime soon.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

But they are already running 4 car trains all day long aren't they? Or are they pretending that two cars are one car like the DLR do?

 

[glbotu]

But they are already running 4 car trains all day long aren't they? Or are they pretending that two cars are one car like the DLR do?

Yeah, a "Metrocar" is one articulated unit (2 driving cabs). It would make an awful lot of sense to run the lot as one long unit, given they haven't run anything as a single metrocar since the 90s (outside the depot).

What would the barriers be to "3 car" operation. I know most of the core stations have been future-proofed and a lot of the former NER stations do have space for "3 car" services.

 

[sprinterguy]

It would make an awful lot of sense to run the lot as one long unit, given they haven't run anything as a single metrocar since the 90s (outside the depot).

They trialled single Metrocar operation on Sundays on the Sunderland extension for a while a little over a decade ago (circa 2005, I think), though clearly it wasn't adopted long term.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Very few station platforms are long enough for 3 or 4 car operation, and those that are need DOO equipment improvements to make it safe to work.

The underground stations all have spare space to extend the platform length, although you could run slightly longer trains in the existing room. The above-ground stations all have room to expand; the older ex-mainline stations have unused platform length and the newer stations are easy enough to bolt a bit of extra concrete to.

As for DOO improvements, I'd expect any replacement Metro stock to have on-board CCTV monitors for DOO, given that a big mirror doesn't really cut the mustard anymore.

I still think something like the Flexity Swift would make sense for Metro. There's no point re-inventing the wheel, and the current Metrocars are just glorified trams anyway.

 

[142094]

I'm not arguing the fact that the majority of stations have room for platform expansion, however if say 95% of stations need some sort of work to cater for longer trains then the cost will be significant.

There is also the fact that Nexus have specified they are looking to procure less than the current 90 car fleet, not more.

 

[MetroCar4058]

I've read elsewhere that we should expect a service cut from January in preparation for the Nexus takeover. Let's hope it's not a drastic change as this could cause major branding issues. Strategically, a 20 minute service in the evening could be disastrous. As the MetroCars have the top spot for most unreliable EMUs in the country, how can they risk having 40 minute gaps in the service in the evening due to stock failures?

Let's hope they are just cutting some of the short works which clog up the lines delaying full services. In my view there are a few too many peak trains which carry too much fresh air, instead there should be an aim to strategically plan these extra services to fit with the demand. Maybe a few Monkseaton - Jarrod trains as this seems to be a busy route at peak.

 

[142094]

I've read elsewhere that we should expect a service cut from January in preparation for the Nexus takeover. Let's hope it's not a drastic change as this could cause major branding issues. Strategically, a 20 minute service in the evening could be disastrous. As the MetroCars have the top spot for most unreliable EMUs in the country, how can they risk having 40 minute gaps in the service in the evening due to stock failures?

Depends on what happens to the duties of the drivers. If you are saving one driver per hour on both the Airport - Hylton and Shields - St. James lines then theoretically you will have two spare drivers who can bring a spare train out at short notice. However, under normal circumstances the amount of spare drivers is kept to a minimum, so having two less drivers per night saves money.

Let's hope they are just cutting some of the short works which clog up the lines delaying full services. In my view there are a few too many peak trains which carry too much fresh air, instead there should be an aim to strategically plan these extra services to fit with the demand. Maybe a few Monkseaton - Jarrod trains as this seems to be a busy route at peak.

In a lot of cases, it is the timetable which is at fault. Having a Regent Centre train 3 minutes behind an Airport train is a waste of time, as is when a Pelaw train is put out 3 minutes behind a South Shields train from Monkseaton sidings. All they are picking up is stragglers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've read elsewhere that we should expect a service cut from January in preparation for the Nexus takeover.

The only place I've seen this mentioned is in this thread.

Nexus specifically came on this thread to say it was not true.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2512278&postcount=55

We don't normally comment directly on posts in forums, but we would like to point out the above claims are completely untrue. There are no discussions about reducing service frequency and Nexus can afford the service we specify - passenger numbers have risen sharply in the last two years and Metro now operates without local council subsidy, on a combination of fares and Government rail grant.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not arguing the fact that the majority of stations have room for platform expansion, however if say 95% of stations need some sort of work to cater for longer trains then the cost will be significant.

There is also the fact that Nexus have specified they are looking to procure less than the current 90 car fleet, not more.

Each Metrocar is 27m long, I can imagine them replacing two Metrocars with one 60m long unit, of some description or another. 90 Metrocars into a fleet of 45-50 new units.

 

[glbotu]

I'm not arguing the fact that the majority of stations have room for platform expansion, however if say 95% of stations need some sort of work to cater for longer trains then the cost will be significant.

There is also the fact that Nexus have specified they are looking to procure less than the current 90 car fleet, not more.

I completely agree about the cost of upgrading 90% of stations being suddenly a large increased cost.

But is that less than the 90 car fleet as similar sized units, or something with more capacity?

 

[Scott M]

The bidirectional NR lines are probably left over from when the Leamside line was in use. A train can go onto the Leamside line using only the down line though Heworth in the up direction, which would leave the up line (normal Heworth to Sunderland line) free for use. I've only seen both lines used in bidirectional working once when there was a possession.

The signal approaching Jesmond is 609. Normal single yellow aspect gives the route to Jesmond platform 1. A single yellow and junction indicator no.1 gives the route to 613 signal on the Manors curve via 611 ground position light. This is used where trains are going to Manors in the morning. A single yellow and junction indicator no. 2 used to give the route to Jesmond platform 2, but this is no longer a route as the points were removed a while back. The subsidiary signal on 609 gives route to 611 signal which is alongside the Carriage pub, and is used when turning trains back out of service towards West Jesmond without using Jesmond platform 1.

I am surprised that they maintain the bidirectional lines (assuming they do) if they are so seldom used.

Also thanks for the info regarding the Jesmond signal, very informative as always. I had a feeling that the RHS junction indicator was historical!

With regards to people calling for 3 or 4 car units with the new fleet: I struggle to see why this would be necessary?

In my own experience of South Shields - Jesmond, even in rush hour, it is rare that people cannot fit onto the train - is this different in other areas of the system? Of course people may struggle to board a full service train in the central belt, however they have shorts for this purpose.

Extra capacity would be provided by having folding down chairs along the sides of the carriages as opposed to the current seating layout.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In my own experience of South Shields - Jesmond, even in rush hour, it is rare that people cannot fit onto the train - is this different in other areas of the system? Of course people may struggle to board a full service train in the central belt, however they have shorts for this purpose.

It's rare that I get a seat in a morning getting on at Northumberland Park, and that's the same whether I get the short that started at Monkseaton or the train that's come through from St James. If the short is cancelled then people will get left behind from Four Lane Ends and Longbenton onwards, and sometimes even Benton, although normally most people get on it, it's just rather snug.

Heading home the issue is that the people in the belt pile on the first train that comes, even if there's a Regent Centre short right behind. Which makes getting on some of the peak Coast trains rather, er, interesting at Haymarket.

I think running one 60m train is better than two 28m Metrocars because of the amount of wasted space you get from the two intermediate cabs. I hope they go down that route rather than simply buying something like the M5000. Extending train lengths to 70-80m is probably not necessary. But I think more intelligent diagramming of the peak shorts is necessary, especially with such huge demand coming from all the big new housing estates in North Tyneside. The Coast service is creaking at the seams already, and that's before the huge new housing estates at West Monkseaton, Holywell and White House Farm get built.

 

[MetroCar4058]

Just a quick cosmetic note, it appears that the lights above the emergency release handles have been removed from several units.

 

[Scott M]

I think it's not unreasonable to not get a seat during rush hour - happens on most light rail systems. With regards to experiencing difficulty getting onto the peak coast trains at haymarket - could you get a monkseston short then change? Not ideal but would get you home.

Agree with you that having one long unit would be more beneficial in terms of space than having 4 cabs.

Also, I noticed both yourself and 142094 have suggested better diagramming of the shorts - how do you guys think they should be diagrammed? I was thinking about it earlier and it seems to me that you can either diagram it to be:

A) Full - Short - Full - Short
or
B) Yellow line - Green line - Yellow line - Green line
but not both A and B at the same time.

Taking example A, it would be:
• Full yellow - Short yellow - Full green - Short green - Full yellow...

And example B would be:
• Full yellow - Full green - Short yellow - Short green - Full yellow...

Finally, I happened to come across a photo of that National rail line under bidirectional working!

Edit: in hindsight that could just be from when the Jarrow - Pelaw freight line was still in use and it needed to cross lines.

 

[ModernRailways]

I think it's not unreasonable to not get a seat during rush hour - happens on most light rail systems. With regards to experiencing difficulty getting onto the peak coast trains at haymarket - could you get a monkseston short then change? Not ideal but would get you home.

Agree with you that having one long unit would be more beneficial in terms of space than having 4 cabs.

Also, I noticed both yourself and 142094 have suggested better diagramming of the shorts - how do you guys think they should be diagrammed? I was thinking about it earlier and it seems to me that you can either diagram it to be:

A) Full - Short - Full - Short
or
B) Yellow line - Green line - Yellow line - Green line
but not both A and B at the same time.

Taking example A, it would be:
• Full yellow - Short yellow - Full green - Short green - Full yellow...

And example B would be:
• Full yellow - Full green - Short yellow - Short green - Full yellow...

Finally, I happened to come across a photo of that National rail line under bidirectional working!

Edit: in hindsight that could just be from when the Jarrow - Pelaw freight line was still in use and it needed to cross lines.

Something ideal would be a walkthrough train similar in style to the S Stock but with a smaller cab (possibly half width like currently). I have a feeling this will be the way Nexus go (or at least should). Trams simply couldn't cope with demand, they have limited capacity and don't have as long a shelf life.


The ideal diagram for the short services would be where the shorts are then followed by the full services. So something like:

Short Yellow - Full Yellow - Short Green - Full Green - Short Yellow - Full Yellow etc. that would mean that the first train would be the short service meaning passengers for stations served outside of the short services are able to get on.


The Jarrow tanks have started to run again iirc and that line is now back in use. The Jarrow tanks on occasion have been pathed to go further on the bi-di so that another service can pass - on one occasion a freight to Tyne Dock was looped, and a Northern service passed towards Newcastle with the tanks in between going along slowly before following behind the Northern unit. This also meant the Tyne Dock freight got moving quicker.

 

[Scott M]

Something ideal would be a walkthrough train similar in style to the S Stock but with a smaller cab (possibly half width like currently). I have a feeling this will be the way Nexus go (or at least should). Trams simply couldn't cope with demand, they have limited capacity and don't have as long a shelf life.

I think this is a defining moment where Nexus decide whether they see the system as light rail or tramway. I agree that something like the S stock is preferable to a tram.

The ideal diagram for the short services would be where the shorts are then followed by the full services. So something like:

Short Yellow - Full Yellow - Short Green - Full Green - Short Yellow - Full Yellow etc. that would mean that the first train would be the short service meaning passengers for stations served outside of the short services are able to get on.

Makes sense. How does that compare to current timetabling?

The Jarrow tanks have started to run again iirc and that line is now back in use. The Jarrow tanks on occasion have been pathed to go further on the bi-di so that another service can pass - on one occasion a freight to Tyne Dock was looped, and a Northern service passed towards Newcastle with the tanks in between going along slowly before following behind the Northern unit. This also meant the Tyne Dock freight got moving quicker.

I had also thought they have started to run again but I have yet to see one! Would be cool to see such usage of the bi-di.

------------------

Most likely a completely pie-in-the-sky idea and not technically possible, but could the new fleet be ordered to have both electrical and diesel capabilities?

Just think it would allow easier scope for expansion in the future. For example if wishing to expand to the metrocentre or use the NR line between pelaw and jarrow, it would simply require the creation of a set of points and some lineside signage as opposed to electrifying an entire line.

 

[MetroCar4058]

I think this is a defining moment where Nexus decide whether they see the system as light rail or tramway. I agree that something like the S stock is preferable to a tram.

The talk from Nexus appears to lie with trains, thankfully.

How does that compare to current timetabling?

Here are samples of the timetable from Monument:
Morning

I suppose this doesn't matter as much as they all terminate at Pelaw.

Evening

As seen, there are:

• 4 Regent Centre services timetabled >3 minutes ahead of Airport trains. These services almost always delay Airport services as it is impossible to clear the train, check both units, move into the sidings and clear the signal without a unit holding at the signal near the depot.
  
• 9 Regent Centre services >4 mins behind an Airport service.
  
• 3 Monkseaton trains >3 mins ahead of a St James service.
  
• 6 Monkseaton trains >4 behind St James services.

Although this clearly displays that the majority of short works are picking up those who miss the full services, we should also appreciate that timetabling all diagrams before a full service is near to impossible and would put allot of pressure on sidings. It would possibly mean less services also?

If the timetable is changed of January, maybe there could be less diagrams at peak with more timetabled at strategic times. This would reduce the impact of lost services and also allow for more MetroCars to get some TLC. I hope that the changes will be minor if the rumour is true.

could the new fleet be ordered to have both electrical and diesel capabilities

This was discussed in the most recent Nexus publication, but it is highly unlikely. Diesel trains are less favourable and are not very compatible with rapid acceleration and short distances between stations as the Metro system is. The stock would also weigh more, meaning more energy is used over the lifetime of the stock and this design is probably more costly to maintain. I would suggest that this is uneconomical regarding the limited usage it could have. The best option would be to electrify the very short stretch of the Jarrow line.

Introducing diesel to Metro is part of the identity issue:

1. Are we going to use Metro as Tyne and Wears rail branding and increase NR integration?
2. Remain a Metro/light rail network?
3. Downgrade to a tramway?

That was the feel from the most recent frantic Nexus publication.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Also, I noticed both yourself and 142094 have suggested better diagramming of the shorts - how do you guys think they should be diagrammed?

It's not just diagramming, it is reliability too. IME you have to be aiming to be on the platform for the full working, if it runs in front of the peak short, because of how regularly the peak shorts get cancelled. I work 9-5, like most people in customer facing roles, and I normally get to Haymarket for the two Coast trains in quick succession- a good bit of planning- and will take the second one as it's quieter. Sadly it's let down by how often- at least 1-2 times a week- that the second Coast train is binned. Although most seem to think that if you're on the platform you may as well catch the full service.

There's also the issue that, in the core, people will pile on to a Coast full service even if they're only going to West Jesmond or Ilford Road.

I often try and avoid the crowds with the Regent Centre shorts, changing at South Gosforth to get out of the core. They're good because they're always carting fresh air about.

I actually think better diagramming would be a yellow train every six minutes and a green train every six minutes, alternating between shorts and longs. I'd send more of the shorts to Monkseaton, given that the Regent Centre shorts seem to do nothing but cart fresh air about.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a seat at Northumberland Park in a morning, on a train that's only come from Monkseaton. Especially given that fares from zones B and C are getting significantly ramped up to fund fares decreases in zone A for the students of West Jesmond.

 

[142094]

4077 out this morning on a peak service.

 

[MetroCar4058]

4077 out this morning on a peak service.

Great news that its back in service! I wonder who paid for the fix

I've just been looking at the timetable around The Coast, and I've noticed that there is an extra service departing St James for Longbenton. (Two terminate at Longbenton during 1800) is this a peak diagram?

 

[142094]

No idea, was surprised to see it running.

In answer to your other question, 151 runs from the depot to Monkseaton, to Pelaw, back to St James and then to Longbenton. It is the only peak service that goes further than Regent Centre or Monkseaton. The other two that terminate at Longbenton in the evening are 122 and 127.

 

[MetroCar4058]

Ah thank you for the information!

On a sour note, the contingency plans this evening when a unit failed at Bede were nothing short of poor. Gaps of 35 minutes in the service as 'all of the trains are at South Shields.' I wish that control were more proactive with such events, ensuring that an even gap is maintained, eg by terminating sets short; it is a shame that they lack the resources to put out a relief set.
Apart from this, all seems to be spot on of late! (Touch wood)

 

[Paul_10]

4077 out this morning on a peak service.

Has it been out in service since then?

 

[142094]

Possibly although haven't seen it. 4083 seems to have been out everyday recently.

 

[MetroCar4058]

Hopefully we will have a day when all 4 unrefurbished units are out! I was on 4083 a few days back and it is in very good condition!

 

[142094]

4077 was out today on 121 but was taken out of service about 4.30pm due to a fault.

 

[danpick]

4040/4083 on 102.

Sent from my Bush Spira B2 5 Smartphone using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
4077 is on 111 today, says it all that when it was leading it ended up 18L.

EDIT: 4077 and 4022 are the replacement for the failed 111 in Pelaw Sidings, anyone know which two Metrocars it is as its too dark to see?
Sent from my Bush Spira B2 5 Smartphone using Tapatalk

 

[MetroCar4058]

I read on My_Metro that there were plans to refurbish Monument but it was cancelled due to budget restraints and that South Shields is the only planned works. Does anyone know if the works at Heworth and Tyne Dock will go ahead as per the NECA report?

Also, will Monument see a facelift within the coming years? Surely it will need to be done for safety and access reasons?

 

[Paul_10]

I read on My_Metro that there were plans to refurbish Monument but it was cancelled due to budget restraints and that South Shields is the only planned works. Does anyone know if the works at Heworth and Tyne Dock will go ahead as per the NECA report?

Also, will Monument see a facelift within the coming years? Surely it will need to be done for safety and access reasons?

I thought South Shields will be a totally seperate project with funding also coming from outside souces to move the station and completely re-build a new station along with a new bus station? That said, would it surprise me if those ambitions plans did not happen, I won't be and for me, will all the disruption and chaos be worth it, probably not.

As for stations like Heworth and Tyne Dock, I imagine it will be more of a refresh than anything else although its interesting all station "refurbishments" have stopped for months now, I'm sure none of the stations between Longbenton and Tynemouth has recieved the black and white colour scheme for example.