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'Train overshoots station' at Pewsey

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Surreytraveller

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Incredible. Thanks.



They are relatively rare and certainly noteworthy if you're involved, but worthy of discussion on a national radio station.l:

For most overshoots I'd agree, but when the next station is 20 miles away, with a non-existent or infrequent service to get passengers back, it then becomes newsworthy. If it was a high frequency every 10 minutes service with the next station a mile away it is different.
 
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D Foster

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I wonder if a station has no signal at the end of the platform if the driver could/would set back into the platform. Theoretically he would not need the signaller's permission as the train is the only train in the block from the previous signal.

This would apply to Track Circuit Block.
Once the train is into the signal section (and has therefore put the Stop Signal behind it to red) it "owns" the line through to the next Stop Signal. As a set-back is a "Wrong Direction Movement" - and would in this case be unscheduled and un-signalled (unlike any planned shunt) the Driver is supposed to contact the Signaller. One reason for this is that, while the length between two Stop Signals usually shows up on any indication that the signaller sees (whatever kind of Box or Signalling Centre he/she is working) any long section of line is usually a number of consecutive track circuits feeding the same indication. If a set-back were to cross from a forward TC to the one behind it, it might well confuse the system and either record a TC failure or just lock-up the system.

Two other things apply.
1. Rather less likely - if the over-run has passed onto or over any points a whole can of worms about movement could arise. (These days in TCB the points can be quite a long way beyond the protecting signal).
2. Beyond each Stop Signal there is an "Overlap". This is normally 200 yards - or 200 metres now. As soon as any part of a movement occupies the Overlap it shows the Signaller that the TCB Section is occupied - whether this puts the signal just past to Red at once or shortly after depends on how the particular TC and signal are arranged. In some places you will see the signal go to red immediately - "First Axle Red" (the more common, more modern arrangement) while in other (usually older arrangements) the signal will not be put to red until most or all of the train has past the signal... (This allowed for the practice of guards observing the signal - in which case they needed to be able to see a Proceed Aspect from the back of a train). That part is easy...
While any part of a movement occupies the Overlap the Signal(s) protecting the TCB Section that the train is leaving (or has left) will be held at Red. Then, once the Overlap id cleared any signal protecting the TCB Section that has been left will be released to be changed either automatically or as required by the controlling Signaller.
This all works "backwards" - if a Wrong Direction Movement enters the Overlap it will put the Stop Signal protecting the next Section back to Red - or hold it at Red. Clearly a "put-back" can be a significant problem. Although the highest aspect that signal could have been showing would be a single Yellow Drivers do not like to see a Yellow drop to a Red as they approach them. These days "sliding by" wouldn't be counted as a SPAD because it wouldn't be the Driver's "fault". However, - so long as the Driver saw it - the "put back" would cause an emergency stop. More seriously a movement might have past the single Yellow legitimately. In that case the movement would be continuing normally toward the Red - but would have lost the protection of the 200 yards of overlap beyond the (Red) Stop Signal it would be approaching.

I hope that lot makes sense! :D

In Absolute Block a train "In Section" is completely "In Section" and owns the line. For the most part the line will be "dark" to the two Signallers at each end of the Block Section - so they are unaware of any "goings on" within it - unless any movement gets itself in sight of either Box.

With Intermediate Block and Automatic Block conditions very similar to TCB would apply.

:D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The overshoot was certainly not 1/4mile - it's my guess that as the line has a minor downhill (1:100) that it's morelikely leaf fall from the large crops of broadleaf trees at Clench could be a factor - not ruling out the fact that people do brake too late or fail to call. Welcome to October again. :)

One consideration with a "slide-by" caused by rail head conditions is - whether a unit will be able to get sufficient traction to set back up a slope. It's possible that an experienced Driver will know that he doesn't have a hope of getting back to a platform and will therefore give up on it and carry on to the next platform.
A related problem can be that a slide by - despite the fact that it is sliding - will end up with significant "flats" on the wheels. This may influence the way a Driver works his train to try and get a good stop - although with modern stock (not the old stuff I worked with) the computers play games with the braking anyway. I'd guess that it might have been the train's "brain" over-riding the braking to prevent wheel damage that contributed to the slide-by (if that's what occurred).
Risk of the computer causing a SPAD? This is why Drivers now use "defensive driving" techniques.
:D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I can certainly remember doing this on a very wet day on the Central Wales line when we overshot one of the request stops because the joining passenger was sheltering until the train entered the platform.

AH! Request stops! :D
The 8 car Thameslink I intended to get home from an early turn on had a door lock failure at Sevenoaks. After some "discussion" it was decided to run it ECS back to its north London depot. Being staff I was able to scrounge a ride on the out-of-course working. We took a weird route between regular trains with a lot of signal checks - until we escaped onto the Catford Loop... Building up to line speed we approached whatever station it was down hill... And a nice lady - possibly from Mid Wales - stepped to the platform edge and held out her arm...
EEEEK!
The Driver hardly had time to hit the horns and hardly touched the brake - there wouldn't have been much point anyway...
Fortunately the nice lady's companions realised what was going on, grabbed her and yanked her clear.
We never heard anything about it...
:D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Whatever the actual length of the overshoot, it's a pity that none of the comments above acknowledge the disruption for the passengers. Yes the Vine show might have overplayed the issue, but the comments above seem largely to take the attitude 'it happens occasionally. Tough luck'. Yes it does happen sometimes but a customer service-facing response would reflect more concern about the correct solutions for the customers as the starting point.

"Customer Care"...
Yes - relevant - for a couple of people so far mentioned...
(A) Perhaps an "on-the-ball" manager of some sort might have organised a taxi for each of the disrupted customers and got them where they were going as promptly as possible. It's certainly what I would be looking for.
(B) To be cynical - it's fortunate for the one that got over carried that he didn't get a penalty fare if he (oops - "or she") didn't have a ticket right through to where he or she ended up... :roll:
(C) More seriously - in these days of penalties for TOCs a considerable factor - that wouldn't have been mentioned to Mr Vine - it would potentially be that the time it would have taken to organise a set-back into the platform and get it done would have so disrupted following movements - freight included - that the penalties that would have built up on the original train (that "slid through") would have made it a rational "business decision" to send it forward...
That said - it would have made sense to get the customers to their destinations more efficiently.

In the old days - when railwaymen ran the railway (rather than politicians and accountants) we would have made a local decision and stopped whatever trains were appropriate to get the passengers to the destinations. Sometimes this would have involved a "Special Stop Order" from a local Station Master. Ah! Those were the days!!! :D
If the "inconvenienced" passenger had been "forces" we'd even divert a Class 1 - e.g. through Redhill instead of round the Quarry Diversion - so that the passenger could be scooped up and returned to barracks inside their pass time. A few unscheduled stops got made at Guildford on late Sunday evenings for RN heading back to Pompey as well.
There is no way anyone could do that these days! These days of "customer service"...
:D

(D) Another consideration - that everyone has possibly missed - would be that the time setting back for two - or even a dozen or so customers could easily have disrupted the running of a number of other trains - at least the back-working and subsequent workings of the train involved - possibly resulting in some cancelations. This could "inconvenience" several hundred other customers.
I still think that some taxis should have been used!
I would suggest that, if this happened to anyone here, they should contact the TOC immediately - assistance point or media - and ask them nicely to sort the problem out - with a taxi... it would be a lot more practical than having it discussed on the radio a few days later. Of course - if the TOC failed to sort it out - when asked nicely - that could get into the media... As they know this - they'd potentially get their act together... With these wizzo modern phones one might even film the train shuddering to a halt and then going forward...
:)
:)
 
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rebmcr

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(C) More seriously - in these days of penalties for TOCs a considerable factor - that wouldn't have been mentioned to Mr Vine - it would potentially be that the time it would have taken to organise a set-back into the platform and get it done would have so disrupted following movements - freight included - that the penalties that would have built up on the original train (that "slid through") would have made it a rational "business decision" to send it forward...
That said - it would have made sense to get the customers to their destinations more efficiently.

In the old days - when railwaymen ran the railway (rather than politicians and accountants) we would have made a local decision and stopped whatever trains were appropriate to get the passengers to the destinations. Sometimes this would have involved a "Special Stop Order" from a local Station Master. Ah! Those were the days!!! :D
If the "inconvenienced" passenger had been "forces" we'd even divert a Class 1 - e.g. through Redhill instead of round the Quarry Diversion - so that the passenger could be scooped up and returned to barracks inside their pass time. A few unscheduled stops got made at Guildford on late Sunday evenings for RN heading back to Pompey as well.
There is no way anyone could do that these days! These days of "customer service"...
:D

(D) Another consideration - that everyone has possibly missed - would be that the time setting back for two - or even a dozen or so customers could easily have disrupted the running of a number of other trains - at least the back-working and subsequent workings of the train involved - possibly resulting in some cancelations. This could "inconvenience" several hundred other customers.
I still think that some taxis should have been used!
I would suggest that, if this happened to anyone here, they should contact the TOC immediately - assistance point or media - and ask them nicely to sort the problem out - with a taxi... it would be a lot more practical than having it discussed on the radio a few days later. Of course - if the TOC failed to sort it out - when asked nicely - that could get into the media... As they know this - they'd potentially get their act together... With these wizzo modern phones one might even film the train shuddering to a halt and then going forward...
:)
:)

Your points (C) and (D) seem to directly contradict each other...
 

D Foster

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rebmcr :)

Points C and D...

C(1) and D say the same thing I think... applying to the modern practices where every second counts and gets money attached to it.

C (2) is pure nostalgia for the "old days" when we ran a railway and getting people home - or back to base - was considered more important than avoiding political penalties. The kind of Additional stop we would add wouldn't usually do much to add time to a trains journey - no more than a signal check for a level crossing that was late to clear for example.
"Back then" many Signalmen and Drivers were ex National Servicemen who understood the significance to being late back to barracks. There were even a few locations around the country where trains would stop mid-section - with no platform) for squaddies "running late" to hop off quick and slip through the perimeter fence of their depot rather than carry on to the station and enter camp past the Guard House. In those days the railway provided a service - rather than a binary/digital "right/wrong" programme.
I guess that digital train recording also means that Signallers and Drivers are now less able to be helpful.
Back then we didn't get frantic about putting a few minutes on a working - and Drivers often made up time anyway. Apart from which we recognised that the timetable wasn't Holy Writ but - allowing for weather and all sorts of other factors - was a means of informing us how late a train was running rather than an ordinance from The Almighty that must be adhered to, to the split second.

When dealing with irate customers about a few minutes delay I used to ask (very politely) if they could guarantee leaving home and getting to a sequence of traffic lights by precise times every day of the year.
The other item I employed was a photograph of an American friend's wife handing a cherry pie to the conductor of an Amtrak train (rolling very slowly by the end of their drive)... The train was running 19 hours late... :)

Thinking of the other thread about the pregnant lady in 1st class... There was an occasion when everything was diverted off the Quarry and nose-to-tail through Redhill when the guard of a train came to my Box and asked if I could heat a baby's bottle... With the very late running the little one was late for a feed and bawling - driving the entire coach crazy... So - bottle was prepared in a couple of minutes - peace returned to the carriage - and the train soon caught up with the back of the queue in front of it - or at least got to the next signal to wait a bit more.
Then again... Those were the days when every Signalbox and mess room had a kettle permanently simmering on a gas hob... These days kettles are banned due to the "risk" of staff scalding themselves... Gas was removed a couple of decades ago...
:)
 
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jimm

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They are relatively rare and certainly noteworthy if you're involved, but worthy of discussion on a national radio station...?! It's the kind of thing that you'd mention when you get home as a thing that happened during your day, but I doubt most people involved would have had anywhere near a 20 minutes conversation to anyone about it. To fill 20 minutes of a national radio show with millions of listeners with this discussion seems inconceivable, given that they could talk about any subject in the world! :|

If that bloke still comes on to talk about his allotment he should start worrying, they might replace him with some railway middle management type, bringing to the nation all the latest TPWS Overspeeds, Wrong routing by signallers and possession overruns... Fascinating entertainment! :lol:

If you are a radio or TV producer with a big hole to fill in your programme the next day, then pretty much anything is worthy of discussion. Station overshoots are rare and unusual, making it just the kind of thing they are looking out for to talk about.

Next you'll be telling us no one should talk about leaves on the line, although plenty of TOCs are currently operating leaf-fall timetables. I'd certainly say there is a discussion to be had about Network Rail's vegetation-clearance policies (or lack of in many places), which remain a key cause of the problem in the first place.
 

Deepgreen

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I was on a train about 10 years ago that went through Lockerbie when it was meant to stop. We came to a halt with the rear cab just past the platform.

On that occasion the driver was allowed to set back. Although I think he might have preferred not to, given that he had to make the "walk of shame" through the train after the guard had informed everyone what the problem was :lol:

How difficult is it to set back? If a train is still at least partly within a signalling section, and it's a relatively short distance back to the platform, what hurdles need to be overcome? If memory serves, we were stopped for about 15-20 minutes before "reversing".

As Lockerbie is the furthest station in Britain from the next one, that's an unfortunate one to choose - no wonder a set back was greatly preferred!
 

47271

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Lockerbie used to be a lot worse for it in BR days, and I know of at least four separate incidents recalled by friends and colleagues from the area, all of which occurred at full speed and with no hope of recovery. They just ended up in Carlisle, or not, if left behind on the platform. The challenge then was to get staff to stop the next northbound train, they'd often try and palm you off with three hour wait for next scheduled stopper. Er, no.

I must've been unlucky: in 20 years I've personally had one Lockerbie drive by as above, two missed stops on Thameslink - one at Mill Hill Broadway which he managed to row back from, another at Elstree which was too fast to recover - and (slightly different) a signalling error at Haymarket which sent my Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttle off towards Fife. That made us, and a lot of other trains, quite late.
 

najaB

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... a signalling error at Haymarket which sent my Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttle off towards Fife. That made us, and a lot of other trains, quite late.
That seems a bit odd. Surely the driver would have realised he was getting routed over to the north lines at Princes Street Gardens and not taken the route?
 

47271

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That seems a bit odd. Surely the driver would have realised he was getting routed over to the north lines at Princes Street Gardens and not taken the route?
It happened about ten years ago. I wasn't paying attention in the lead up to the incident but I think that we'd been routed into P2 (the down Fife platform) at Haymarket because of some earlier disruption - it does happen now and again.

Rather than get sent over to the Glasgow lines to the west of Haymarket we went straight on. We came to a sharpish halt well clear of the junction, they explained what had happened, the driver walked through looking none too happy, we went back, he walked back, we went forward... It took about half an hour to sort out as I recall, not to mention the chaos no doubt breaking out for every other train around us.

The only thing that still puzzles me - would the driver not have known that we'd not been routed towards the Glasgow lines as we approached the junction and taken the chance to stop before having to reverse?
 

infobleep

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Glosrail says above it was discussed on BBC Radio Wiltshire on Tuesday, the Telegraph presumably picked up on that report, resulting in their story on Thursday and the Jeremy Vine show's producer read the Telegraph and thought it would make a taking point on Friday...

To those who say overshoots happen all the time or that it was an unremarkable event, when you put it in the context of 20,000+ passenger services operating each day, overshoots are vanishingly rare - a tribute to the expertise of drivers, especially at this time of the year - hence why the BBC and Telegraph took an interest.

The people covering the story may never have heard of a train overshooting a station - the chances are they will never do another story about a train overrunning for the rest of their careers. It was an unusual event, hence them taking an interest.

In 40+ years, taking in countless rail journeys in the UK and a fair few abroad, I have been on just one train that overshot a platform - and that was on a very damp autumn morning on a downhill gradient, where the conditions defeated the driver's best efforts to stop in the right place. Of course, I could just have been lucky and all of you have been on train after train that overshot stations - but somehow I doubt it.
So if it happened on Tuesday, I wonder who alerted to Telegraph so it appeared in Thursdays issue rather than Wednesdays. Perhaps there journalists used the listen again feature of iPlayer a lot.

I wonder why it then took over a day for Jeremy Vine to find enough people to do a piece on it. May be Thursday wasn't such a slow news day as Friday was expected to be, so they sat on it.

The media go on about 24 hour news and being first for news....

I wonder if I had been on the train and wanted radio 2 to do a story about it, how easy would it have been for me to raise it with them and get a feature done?

May be I'm just being to cynical here.


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nom de guerre

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Those were the days when every Signalbox and mess room had a kettle permanently simmering on a gas hob... These days kettles are banned due to the "risk" of staff scalding themselves... Gas was removed a couple of decades ago...
:)

Every single-manned box I worked in the past five years had a gas hob! The kettles were always electric, however.
 

jimm

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So if it happened on Tuesday, I wonder who alerted to Telegraph so it appeared in Thursdays issue rather than Wednesdays. Perhaps there journalists used the listen again feature of iPlayer a lot.

I wonder why it then took over a day for Jeremy Vine to find enough people to do a piece on it. May be Thursday wasn't such a slow news day as Friday was expected to be, so they sat on it.

The media go on about 24 hour news and being first for news....

I wonder if I had been on the train and wanted radio 2 to do a story about it, how easy would it have been for me to raise it with them and get a feature done?

May be I'm just being to cynical here.

Not being party to the internal workings of the Telegraph or BBC, I don't know what the exact sequence of events was, but if the Telegraph took some time to track down and interview the guy they quoted, it would seem reasonable it took until Thursday to appear.

It wasn't published online until 3.35pm, so too late for Thursday's Jeremy Vine programme and they would need to round up the four people or whatever number were involved in the discussion before Friday's show anyway. People aren't always instantly available.

How to send a story idea to BBC News. Whether they follow up on things is down to the programme editors.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/have_your_say

Local BBC offices have similar arrangements, e.g.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-12463938
 

infobleep

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Not being party to the internal workings of the Telegraph or BBC, I don't know what the exact sequence of events was, but if the Telegraph took some time to track down and interview the guy they quoted, it would seem reasonable it took until Thursday to appear.

It wasn't published online until 3.35pm, so too late for Thursday's Jeremy Vine programme and they would need to round up the four people or whatever number were involved in the discussion before Friday's show anyway. People aren't always instantly available.

How to send a story idea to BBC News. Whether they follow up on things is down to the programme editors.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/have_your_say

Local BBC offices have similar arrangements, e.g.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-12463938
When someone said it appeared in Thursdays Telegraph, I took that to mean the print edition. But these days with 24 hour news it doesn't mean that of course.

I should be less crticial on the news people in this case. However so often they generalise things and get it wrong that I sometimes tend to jump to conclusions. I almost want to find ways to critisise them because they keep critisising others.

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70014IronDuke

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For most overshoots I'd agree, but when the next station is 20 miles away, with a non-existent or infrequent service to get passengers back, it then becomes newsworthy. If it was a high frequency every 10 minutes service with the next station a mile away it is different.

I think that's a very fair point. The overshoot itself is not seriously newsworthy (beyond the tabloid local press) but how the TOC deals, or fails to deal with it :(- that could well be, agreed.
 
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