Opinion regarding poor workplace

[pompeyfan]

Hi all,

My partner has just told me that her sister who works for a major petrol station chain is having a new contract enforced on her that stipulates that if someone fills and drives off it comes out the employees wage packet, apparently anyone who doesn't sign the contract is having their signature forged. This new contract also states that short notice overtime is mandatory.

This clearly speaks of people who are desperate to keep their job and not seeking out legal advice... does anyone have any advice or what course of action could be taken?

 

[DarloRich]

I assume USDAW isn't recognized in the work place. If it is join and contact them if not see a lawyer asap especially about the alleged forgery.

 

[Iskra]

A visit to the Citizen's Advice Bureau or speaking to the relevant union would be a good idea.

It sounds more like the actions of a dodgy manager or franchisee to be honest. If anyone is forging signatures, then their boss needs making aware as that is grounds for dismissal. If there is an internal whistle-blowing or fraud-reporting helpline as many companies have, then that would be a good way to report the alleged behaviour.

 

[NSEFAN]

My partner has just told me that her sister who works for a major petrol station chain is having a new contract enforced on her that stipulates that if someone fills and drives off it comes out the employees wage packet, apparently anyone who doesn't sign the contract is having their signature forged. This new contract also states that short notice overtime is mandatory.

How on Earth can the employees have stolen petrol taken from their wages? What action are they expected to take to prevent it?

Furthermore, forging signatures for an employment contract? :roll:

 

[ainsworth74]

If she's in a Union she should speak to them first. If not then speak to her local Citizens Advice as they should be able to provide free employment advice. Also consider giving ACAS a ring as well on their helpline.

 

[CatfordCat]

A few angles

First off, most unions will not offer representation (although may be prepared to offer advice) on an issue that started before someone joins.

Too many people seem to think you can join a union, pay one month's subs, get a lot of help, then not bother to pay in any more. You wouldn't expect to get house insurance if you only rang up after you had been burgled...

Each union will of course have their own rules, so may be worth a look. (and joining for the long term of course)

Any individual (with a few exceptions like the armed services) is free to join a trade union of their choice - even if it's not formally 'recognised' within their workplace - they still have access to advice / legal representation within the rules of that union. (Some unions are better than others at dealing with individual members in non recognised workplaces - I have no personal experience of USDAW)

Employers can not just impose a new contract.

Employers can not make unlawful deductions from wages.

If a signature is forged, that's a whole new can of worms - I'm not sure that wouldn't be some sort of criminal offence, but I'm not legally qualified to be certain.

Having said that, courtesy of the current government (or it may have been the coalition, I find it hard to tell the difference) there are now up-front fees for individuals to bring claims (such as unlawful deductions from wages) to an employment tribunal.

ACAS, as well as getting involved with major disputes, do have an advice line that any employer or employee can ring for free advice - more here - they don't expect your name / employer's name.

 

[ainsworth74]

Having said that, courtesy of the current government (or it may have been the coalition, I find it hard to tell the difference) there are now up-front fees for individuals to bring claims (such as unlawful deductions from wages) to an employment tribunal.

You can bring a case via small claims instead. It's a lot cheaper.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Most unions, mine in particular (Unison) require that you must have been in the union for at least a certain time period before they help you with any potential employer related issue.

I would definitely go down the ACAS route and speak to them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all,

My partner has just told me that her sister who works for a major petrol station chain is having a new contract enforced on her that stipulates that if someone fills and drives off it comes out the employees wage packet, apparently anyone who doesn't sign the contract is having their signature forged. This new contract also states that short notice overtime is mandatory.

This clearly speaks of people who are desperate to keep their job and not seeking out legal advice... does anyone have any advice or what course of action could be taken?

Sounds like a dodgy franchisee. I don't have much faith that the franchisee will engage with ACAS.

Personally, I would be looking for another job. If that is practical. Urgently.

 

[ainsworth74]

Personally, I would be looking for another job. If that is practical. Urgently.

That is very good advice. By all means do what you can to fight for your current job and protect your T&Cs but unless a change of leadership is likely to occur in the near future time to abandon ship I think!

 

[pompeyfan]

Sadly I think laziness and fear means she'all stay there. Mentality seems to say she'd rather stay there and moan rather than take action

 

[deltic]

Retail workers can have deductions made from their salary in the case of stolen goods if it is in their contract but no more than 10% of their salary can be deducted in one period. If signature is forged on a contract then that contract is void however it can be difficult to prove forgery. You do not have to sign a contract of employment - if you refuse to sign a contract but turn up for work then in effect you are treated as accepting that contract. Employer can terminate a contract and offer a new one if no agreement has been reached on changing the contract as long as they follow the correct process for dismissal of staff.

It is therefore important to seek legal advice as soon as possible - as others have mentioned ACAS provide a telephone help line but their advice tends to be generic

 

[tony_mac]

They can only deduct at most 10% (at a time), and the remaining wage must not fall below the minimum wage.
https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay

 

[Antman]

Hi all,

My partner has just told me that her sister who works for a major petrol station chain is having a new contract enforced on her that stipulates that if someone fills and drives off it comes out the employees wage packet, apparently anyone who doesn't sign the contract is having their signature forged. This new contract also states that short notice overtime is mandatory.

This clearly speaks of people who are desperate to keep their job and not seeking out legal advice... does anyone have any advice or what course of action could be taken?

Just to be clear is this in the case of them clearing the pump for use when they shouldn't have done? Bilking is a big problem in some areas.

 

[AlterEgo]

Retail workers can have deductions made from their salary in the case of stolen goods if it is in their contract

I don't think they can. It is one thing to be short in your till, which implies employee error... It is another thing to be held responsible for bilking. If this is legal then I shudder at the thought of working in retail again.

 

[deltic]

I don't think they can. It is one thing to be short in your till, which implies employee error... It is another thing to be held responsible for bilking. If this is legal then I shudder at the thought of working in retail again.

Depends whats in your contract - certainly plenty examples of this occurring.

 

[AlterEgo]

Depends whats in your contract - certainly plenty examples of this occurring.

Just because something is in your contract doesn't mean it's legal. I would be very surprised if this was legal, being held responsible for the criminal actions of a third party.

 

[deltic]

Then I'm afraid you will have to be surprised because it is.

 

[AlterEgo]

Then I'm afraid you will have to be surprised because it is.

No, just because something is in a contract doesn't make it legal or enforceable. Contracts in themselves can be unfair, unclear or illegal.

I expect you'd have to look at how tribunals have treated matters in the past to determine how it might be treated in future. A brief Internet search is inconclusive.

 

[pompeyfan]

A friend has suggested it could be meant to cover customers who had intended to pay, and so entered the shop, got distracted, purchased refreshments but not fuel, even still would seem unfair.

 

[deltic]

CItizen Advice Bureau give the example of pay deduction due to theft (not by the employee) and the Government website an example of non payment for a meal and the fact deductions can be made if they are set out in your contract.

 

[AlterEgo]

CItizen Advice Bureau give the example of pay deduction due to theft (not by the employee) and the Government website an example of non payment for a meal and the fact deductions can be made if they are set out in your contract.

Elsewhere on the Internet legal blogs say:

However, in a Supreme court case at the end of 2015 (ParkingEye v Beavis), the ‘test’ for what is an unforceable penalty cause was altered by the Court. Although this was not an employment-related case it will be significant. The Supreme Court rejected the test that the amount to be repaid was a ‘genuine pre-estimate of loss’; and said the true test for establishing whether a provision is a ‘penalty’ is whether the provision imposes a detriment on the defaulting party which is out of all proportion to the innocent party’s legitimate interest in enforcing the defaulting party’s obligations under the contract. So, if it is a genuine pre-estimate of loss, and not disproportionate or excessive and not just a deterrent or a punishment to the other party, then the clause may be valid. In assessing when a clause is ‘penal’ it should be considered whether the clause is ‘unconscionable’ or ‘extravagant’ by reference to some norm.

and:

However in this instance you do not have full and direct control and this would be classed as unreasonable and an infringement of your normal & legal employment rights. You could be disciplined if security is part of your duties, but not to refund the employer any financial loss unless you were the person taking said products ( I mean no disrespect by that statement) or had through a 'process’ accepted responsibility and that in every example MUST be 'reasonable, cash handling is one such example; it is simply far to easy to defend an individual who has had money removed for theft or other loss and I seldom witness such cases for that very reason.



It is far from black and white. It is inconclusive.

 

[tony_mac]

The 10% limit was introduced in the 80s to try and prevent some of the worst excesses (in some cases employees left with nothing), and petrol stations seem to have been amongst the worst offenders then.

(http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1986/jun/24/wages-bill)

 

[Busaholic]

Hi all,

My partner has just told me that her sister who works for a major petrol station chain is having a new contract enforced on her that stipulates that if someone fills and drives off it comes out the employees wage packet, apparently anyone who doesn't sign the contract is having their signature forged. This new contract also states that short notice overtime is mandatory.

This clearly speaks of people who are desperate to keep their job and not seeking out legal advice... does anyone have any advice or what course of action could be taken?

A certain supermarket petrol station near me tried to make me pay for a drive-off by refusing to set the gauge to zero when I arrived to fill up. As you have to press a button to say whether you wish to pay at the pump or the kiosk, when I went in to remonstrate with the staff they tried to say I just wasn't pressing the right button - funny that, as I'd been filling up there every week for years! When a reluctant member of staff came out and pressed the button nothing happened either, until she signalled to the other member of staff who promptly zeroed it. She still had the gall to pretend it was all my fault - I'd have had £52 added to my own bill if I'd been less savvy. The week previously our local police force had announced they would no longer treat drive-offs as a crime, so would refuse to get involved! I now buy my petrol elsewhere. Every little helps!

 

[radamfi]

If petrol stations are so worried about this then why don't they make everyone either pay first before filling or pay using a card or app at the pump?

 

[J-2739]

If petrol stations are so worried about this then why don't they make everyone either pay first before filling or pay using a card or app at the pump?

I'm a bit confused why petrol stations in the UK generally require the customer to pay after topping up, instead of the more US style of paying a certain amount first, then filling up until the prices is met, then the nozzle locks up. This would keep people from receiving more fuel than the amount they payed for, and the system wouldn't be rigged.

I know these are rare cases and my post is off the topic anyway, but still...

 

[Busaholic]

If petrol stations are so worried about this then why don't they make everyone either pay first before filling or pay using a card or app at the pump?

Because they're greedy and want everyone to spend extra quids on sweets/coffee/pasties/fags while they're in the shop? Not at night, of course, when they are happy you have to pay at the pump.

 

[Phil.]

Hi all,

My partner has just told me that her sister who works for a major petrol station chain is having a new contract enforced on her that stipulates that if someone fills and drives off it comes out the employees wage packet, apparently anyone who doesn't sign the contract is having their signature forged. This new contract also states that short notice overtime is mandatory.

This clearly speaks of people who are desperate to keep their job and not seeking out legal advice... does anyone have any advice or what course of action could be taken?

Not helpful but this is nothing new. One of my assistants when I was still working used to work for B.P. at a filling station and stated that this was standard practice for all filling stations. It should be illegal for employers to be able to do this, why isn't it?

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I have heard of similar practices at other workplaces, making employees pay for shortfalls etc etc even if it's not their fault. Some times having to do unpaid overtime as well.

 

[Welly]

Because they're greedy and want everyone to spend extra quids on sweets/coffee/pasties/fags while they're in the shop? Not at night, of course, when they are happy you have to pay at the pump.

Fuel sales alone generates only a few pence profit per litre for the retailer, those sweets/coffee etc actually help keep the fuel price for the customer down!