Far North Line "facing closure" (slight hyperbole alert).

[Baxenden Bank]

I propose a new sport, lorry jousting!

I think that is the current problem. Accidents caused by long single carriageway (but two lane) sections with impatient motorists stuck behind slower lorries overtaking recklessly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

a) not close any stations, but just have the really little used ones on one train e/w per day - preferably in daylight time.

That makes them pretty useless for those who might want to use them, e.g. getting off at Altnabreac for a walk in the woods.

I like the idea of providing Swiss-style "request a stop" plungers on the platform with related signals, then the driver can be given sufficient advance notice and need not slow.

I also think higher-powered DMUs would make the slowdowns and speed-ups less of an issue. Class 185s were mentioned, but of course may be too heavy. If ScotRail has 400hp Class 158s then a swap would be sensible. Whether allowed or not 170s would make no sense as they are slower.

A realistic timetable is also needed. Why *is* it slower than 2000, though - is the infrastructure in far worse condition?

Would it make sense (assuming another DMU is not available) to run only to Wick *or* Thurso on each train, and have a connecting bus shuttle to the other one/to Georgemas?

 

[backontrack]

You are in a circle here where only your own information is valid to you. I and others have provided real examples of where there is significant invest in transport all over the Highlands.

A bit of hypocrisy there. You're always repeating yourself!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A wee bump with a report published today produced for Friends of the Far North Line:

http://www.fofnl.org.uk/archives/Aliona-FoFNL-study-16.10.16.pdf

Interesting reading, perhaps most interesting is that they're considering closing Kildonan station.

A very interesting read, thanks for that.

 

[Highland37]

. Whether allowed or not 170s would make no sense as they are slower.

A realistic timetable is also needed. Why *is* it slower than 2000, though - is the infrastructure in far worse condition?

I don't know the exact reasons but the route to Thurso is much longer than the road and the track is ancient.

I think attitude is a major problem. People see this more as a slow route which makes it less relevant relative to the coach.

As others have said, when the A9 is dualled all the way, the railway will be at a competitive disadvantage.

Some of this can be blamed on politics but the railway does seem very slow at putting forward ideas and then getting them into action. Double track to Moy doesn't seem a big ask or the Lentran loop. But in Beauly, where I live, no one has the faintest idea about this as no railway organisation is putting the case forward, beyond reports.

I was on the train from Glasgow to Inverness yesterday. It was about ten minutes late which meant the connection to the north was missed. But a car is much faster than the train so the taxi that Scotrail put on for the Thurso passengers easily caught it. That's how slow the train is.

 

[Class 170101]

Reading the comments about the 158's I guess the 185's would have clearance issues as an first look they seem ideal for the job.

Page 7, paragraph 7

I also think higher-powered DMUs would make the slowdowns and speed-ups less of an issue. Class 185s were mentioned, but of course may be too heavy. If ScotRail has 400hp Class 158s then a swap would be sensible. Whether allowed or not 170s would make no sense as they are slower.

Class 185s would be too heavy. Journey times would increase further. Class 170s have already been discounted because of their weight even though they are classified as Sprinters.

I like the idea of providing Swiss-style "request a stop" plungers on the platform with related signals, then the driver can be given sufficient advance notice and need not slow.

A realistic timetable is also needed. Why *is* it slower than 2000, though - is the infrastructure in far worse condition?

Would it make sense (assuming another DMU is not available) to run only to Wick *or* Thurso on each train, and have a connecting bus shuttle to the other one/to Georgemas?

Times have slowed since 200o due to the introduction of TPWS. When the line was signalled with RETB TPWS did not exist. It has been overlaid since. Also revised safety standards concerning Level Crossings and accidents with the un-barriered have resulted in longer journey times. The physical infrastructure is in good condition overall though.

I am far from convinced about any of the options proposed for request stops. It would almost certainly require passengers to arrive several minutes earlier than the timetable advertised to board the train and that is un-realistic. How many times have you seen passengers turn up at the last minute to board trains?

Concerning extra DMUs for a shuttle between Wick and Thurso this is not a viable use of scarce DMUs (even D Stock). How would it be maintained and how would it be crewed given that there are something like 4 drivers and 4 guards for three turns. The cost of incrasing the stablishment at Wick Depot would bust the budget many times over. For this a road vehicle is the better option.

 

[alex17595]

But a car is much faster than the train so the taxi that Scotrail put on for the Thurso passengers easily caught it. That's how slow the train is.

The car is so much faster that the train even over the Shorter route to Kyle (although the train has to do go the long way around.) I missed a connection once and even though we left in taxis 35 mins after the train had left we arrived about 45 mins or so before it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The car is so much faster that the train even over the Shorter route to Kyle (although the train has to do go the long way around.) I missed a connection once and even though we left in taxis 35 mins after the train had left we arrived about 45 mins or so before it.

The car is much faster than a good many regional train services. The thing that is perhaps of more interest is whether a *bus* would be faster (and in this case it would).

 

[70014IronDuke]

That makes them pretty useless for those who might want to use them, e.g. getting off at Altnabreac for a walk in the woods.

Have you looked at the passenger usage figures for Altnabreac? (see below)

I like the idea of providing Swiss-style "request a stop" plungers on the platform with related signals, then the driver can be given sufficient advance notice and need not slow.

Cost? Let's take a look at the figures (below). Even if it worked (as another poster pointed out - people leave things late all too often), and then there's a problem of vandalism and maintenance in wildly variable weather conditions. I don't it would be worth it, except, perhaps, for Rogart.

I also think higher-powered DMUs would make the slowdowns and speed-ups less of an issue.

Of course, as the report mentioned, much better to have 400 hp per unit. But again, we come to cost? And again, let's see how many this is all for.

Would it make sense (assuming another DMU is not available) to run only to Wick *or* Thurso on each train, and have a connecting bus shuttle to the other one/to Georgemas?

So, I looked up the passenger numbers for these stations, and (very roughly) averaged them out, with a bias towards the later years. And I calculated the number of trains having to prepare to stop, in case a passenger is there. (with a few reduced numbers for cancelled trains, xmas etc).

Request Stn - Annual pax - Trains per week.

Culrain 550 – 50 trains per week – 2,550 trains per year, ie at least 2,000 trains slow down, ready to stop, needlessly. (it will be more in practice because, of course, on some occasions two or more passengers will be boarding together.)

Invershin 550 - 50 trains per week – 2,550 trains per year
(same comment as above)

Rogart 1,600 - 50 trains per week

Dunrobin Castle 800 - Summer only

Kildonan 140 – 44 trains per week – 2,250 trains per year

Kinbrace 600 (wide variation, up to 1,100) 44 trains per week.

Altnabreac 220 - 44 trains per week – 4.2 pax per week.

Scotscalder 400 - 44 trains per week – 7.2 pax per week

I shall leave out Dunrobin Castle as it is a special case, and Rogart, as the latter would appear to have enough passengers to justify the current service.

The weakest case is obviously Kildonan. It has some 2,250 trains per year ready to stop for a laughable 140 passengers. (Of course, roughly 70 of these are presumably alighting, so these trains would be stopping in any case. but given the rarity of any passengers at all, the times when one or more are alighting while one or more are boarding must be extremely rare.)

The fare box will surely be insufficient to even pay for the fuel needed for the 2,150 or so trains that have to accelerate away each year after vainly slowing for a possible pick up - let alone staffing and other running costs.

It could clearly go to one train per day each way, and hardly anyone, apart from the driver and guard, would notice, for the vast majority of days per year.

Then you have Altnabreac and Scotscalder, which have 3 up services, and four down daily. Again, these could surely be cut to 2 each way, and still nobody would notice?

As for Invershin and Culrain - these are even more wasteful, as they have 50 trains per week (they see a morning Invernet service). Could these not be reduced, with trains ready to stop at just one of the stations alternately?

Finally, you have Kinbrace - which is a funny one, as it had two years of over 1,000 users, but other years as low as 410. (perhaps this is one of the stations where coaches sometimes turf out passengers for the train?)

but even with 1,100 users per year - for 2,250 trains per annum - it's a ridiculously low usage. It too could be cut to max two trains per day, and few would notice.

If there were some research, to see if any particular trains were used more than others (although that would be difficult to ascertain, given the low figures, I'd guess) and then the cuts made, I doubt the usage figures would change much. Your walkers could still make use of the reduced service, while trains could all save 5-7 minutes per journey, plus fuel and brake wear.

 

[Highland37]

The car is much faster than a good many regional train services. The thing that is perhaps of more interest is whether a *bus* would be faster (and in this case it would).

Yes. The bus would be much faster. The car is faster. The train is the slowest of all the modes.

I've hired coaches to move people about all over the Highlands. Depending numbers and combinations of rail cards, the train is often cheaper and easier but a lot slower and less popular with the people I work with. They all live in the north and west and always prefer the bus as it's easier and much faster.

Huge investment is needed to keep up with roads even of 20 years ago. Welded rail would make a huge difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could clearly go to one train per day each way, and hardly anyone, apart from the driver and guard, would notice, for the vast majority of days per year.

Then close them, sad though that might be. I'm not, and never have been, convinced by the idea of Parliamentary services. It's worth providing a proper, usable service or it isn't.

 

[Highland37]

but even with 1,100 users per year - for 2,250 trains per annum - it's a ridiculously low usage. It too could be cut to max two trains per day, and few would notice.

If there were some research, to see if any particular trains were used more than others (although that would be difficult to ascertain, given the low figures, I'd guess) and then the cuts made, I doubt the usage figures would change much. Your walkers could still make use of the reduced service, while trains could all save 5-7 minutes per journey, plus fuel and brake wear.

One of the main issues isn't the railway's fault but more a social reality - there are hardly any people in the north and west. The main reason for this is that they were cleared and also even in the current day, large sporting estates which provide very few jobs but prevent development are the main land ownership pattern. You can't get a plot for a house and there are almost no jobs. It's a catch 22. More people needed but a huge change in landownership is needed for that.

 

[NicholasNCE]

Then close them, sad though that might be. I'm not, and never have been, convinced by the idea of Parliamentary services. It's worth providing a proper, usable service or it isn't.

I couldn't agree more, you just need to look at what's happening on the other side of the Channel, reduced frequencies and odd timings on rural lines have lead to low patronage and lack of maintenance, in turn we are now seeing more and more line closures with buses replacing trains. This is happening at an alarming rate, I can think of three separate cases this year alone!

Let's hope Scotland maintains worthwhile frequencies on its rural lines. Trains and more generally public transport are only a serious alternative to the private car when a minimal quality of service is maintained, of which frequency is probably the most important aspect.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I hope it does not close, I have used it a few times through to Wick and it has always been busy, in some cases standing room only, or all seats reserved by tour groups. when I have been on the Wick or Kyle line services, they have only been formed of two carriages when in many cases three would have been better.

Like wise the Oban and Fort William/Mallaig services.

Maybe next year I will try and get North of The Border and do some of these lines, I'd like to do the whole route of the Aberdonian and Highland Chieftain.

 

[Northhighland]

Have you looked at the passenger usage figures for Altnabreac? (see below)




Cost? Let's take a look at the figures (below). Even if it worked (as another poster pointed out - people leave things late all too often), and then there's a problem of vandalism and maintenance in wildly variable weather conditions. I don't it would be worth it, except, perhaps, for Rogart.



Of course, as the report mentioned, much better to have 400 hp per unit. But again, we come to cost? And again, let's see how many this is all for.



So, I looked up the passenger numbers for these stations, and (very roughly) averaged them out, with a bias towards the later years. And I calculated the number of trains having to prepare to stop, in case a passenger is there. (with a few reduced numbers for cancelled trains, xmas etc).

Request Stn - Annual pax - Trains per week.

Culrain 550 – 50 trains per week – 2,550 trains per year, ie at least 2,000 trains slow down, ready to stop, needlessly. (it will be more in practice because, of course, on some occasions two or more passengers will be boarding together.)

Invershin 550 - 50 trains per week – 2,550 trains per year
(same comment as above)

Rogart 1,600 - 50 trains per week

Dunrobin Castle 800 - Summer only

Kildonan 140 – 44 trains per week – 2,250 trains per year

Kinbrace 600 (wide variation, up to 1,100) 44 trains per week.

Altnabreac 220 - 44 trains per week – 4.2 pax per week.

Scotscalder 400 - 44 trains per week – 7.2 pax per week

I shall leave out Dunrobin Castle as it is a special case, and Rogart, as the latter would appear to have enough passengers to justify the current service.

The weakest case is obviously Kildonan. It has some 2,250 trains per year ready to stop for a laughable 140 passengers. (Of course, roughly 70 of these are presumably alighting, so these trains would be stopping in any case. but given the rarity of any passengers at all, the times when one or more are alighting while one or more are boarding must be extremely rare.)

The fare box will surely be insufficient to even pay for the fuel needed for the 2,150 or so trains that have to accelerate away each year after vainly slowing for a possible pick up - let alone staffing and other running costs.

It could clearly go to one train per day each way, and hardly anyone, apart from the driver and guard, would notice, for the vast majority of days per year.

Then you have Altnabreac and Scotscalder, which have 3 up services, and four down daily. Again, these could surely be cut to 2 each way, and still nobody would notice?

As for Invershin and Culrain - these are even more wasteful, as they have 50 trains per week (they see a morning Invernet service). Could these not be reduced, with trains ready to stop at just one of the stations alternately?

Finally, you have Kinbrace - which is a funny one, as it had two years of over 1,000 users, but other years as low as 410. (perhaps this is one of the stations where coaches sometimes turf out passengers for the train?)

but even with 1,100 users per year - for 2,250 trains per annum - it's a ridiculously low usage. It too could be cut to max two trains per day, and few would notice.

If there were some research, to see if any particular trains were used more than others (although that would be difficult to ascertain, given the low figures, I'd guess) and then the cuts made, I doubt the usage figures would change much. Your walkers could still make use of the reduced service, while trains could all save 5-7 minutes per journey, plus fuel and brake wear.

You display a general lack of understanding of the communities you are talking about. In some of the instances these are very small remote communities. Rail is the only form of public transport available. It is one of the few things the line does do, provide a link to the outside world for these communities.

The journey time to Wick is a massive 1hr 45 longer than the road trip from Inverness. Cutting a few small stations out is not going to solve the issue. Perhaps improving the journey experience might be more useful. Reliable internet access, a reliable service, rolling stock that is more comfortable, catering that is edible all might help as much if not more. Due to geography the line simply will never compete on time. It has to offer something different.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Casting my mind back into the mists of time to the former rail route of the Wick and Lybster Light Railway, how many of those settlements are still served by bus and what is car usage like in those areas these days?

 

[najaB]

The journey time to Wick is a massive 1hr 45 longer than the road trip from Inverness. Cutting a few small stations out is not going to solve the issue. Perhaps improving the journey experience might be more useful. Reliable internet access, a reliable service, rolling stock that is more comfortable, catering that is edible all might help as much if not more. Due to geography the line simply will never compete on time. It has to offer something different.

I completely agree with the sentiment of your post but, as you said, these are small communities - all of the above add cost, but the potential market doesn't get any bigger.

That's the problem with trying to improve rural services - the costs are broadly comparable to urban areas, but the return on investment rarely is.

 

[backontrack]

You display a general lack of understanding of the communities you are talking about. In some of the instances these are very small remote communities. Rail is the only form of public transport available. It is one of the few things the line does do, provide a link to the outside world for these communities.

It's a bit much to describe Altnabreac as a 'community'.

That and Kildonan you could cut the service to fairly easily. A new Halkirk station would also probably halve Scotscalder's demand. That leaves you with Kinbrace, which in any case should definitely retain its current service pattern; a new siding and passing loop need to happen their quite soon and people do actually live there.

Invershin serves Inveran and together could probably retain its current service pattern. Culrain is tricky as that's all linked in with Carbisdale.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The journey time to Wick is a massive 1hr 45 longer than the road trip from Inverness. Cutting a few small stations out is not going to solve the issue. Perhaps improving the journey experience might be more useful. Reliable internet access, a reliable service, rolling stock that is more comfortable, catering that is edible all might help as much if not more. Due to geography the line simply will never compete on time. It has to offer something different.

And this is why passing loops are important; none of this can happen without a basic, functional service. The population between Inverness and the Dornoch Firth is quite high. The Invernet trains show that the demand is there. Let's put in the Lentran Loop, and perhaps another loop and cheapy Beauly-style platform at Evanton. Then we can focus on the rest.

 

[Robertj21a]

Silly question but I don't suppose there are any plans for new housing or industry near the line that would increase the loadings ? No grants to create a New Town ? [ok, I'm getting silly, I know......]

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bit much to describe Altnabreac as a 'community'.

A new Halkirk station would also probably halve Scotscalder's demand.

You would get a not insignficant time saving if you closed Scotscalder, Altnabreac *and* Georgemas, opened a new station at Halkirk, and ran south-Wick-Thurso-Wick-south rather than the present large number of reversals.

 

[class26]

You would get a not insignficant time saving if you closed Scotscalder, Altnabreac *and* Georgemas, opened a new station at Halkirk, and ran south-Wick-Thurso-Wick-south rather than the present large number of reversals.

Except the timings to Thurso would surely be alot longer as the distance from Georgemas to Thurso is half that of Georgemas to Wick.

The answer surely has to be a chord just south of Georgemas so the train can run direct to Thurso without reversal, then direct Thurso - Wick and then all in reverse. the chord ought to save 5 minutes as no stop is involved nor reversal ?

 

[backontrack]

Except the timings to Thurso would surely be alot longer as the distance from Georgemas to Thurso is half that of Georgemas to Wick.

The answer surely has to be a chord just south of Georgemas so the train can run direct to Thurso without reversal, then direct Thurso - Wick and then all in reverse. the chord ought to save 5 minutes as no stop is involved nor reversal ?

Thankfully, said chord is in the works.

 

[Altnabreac]

You would get a not insignficant time saving if you closed Scotscalder, Altnabreac *and* Georgemas, opened a new station at Halkirk, and ran south-Wick-Thurso-Wick-south rather than the present large number of reversals.

Wick has a significantly shorter coach journey south though so there is no sense in competing on time there.

Much more likely to be competitive from Thurso. Fundamentally Tain - Inverness is the important section to have a fast, reliable service on. North of Tain will always be a more limited customer base

 

[route:oxford]

Surely the answer is to use stock that can accelerate as fast London Underground trains?

Then it doesn't really matter if stations are a mere few hundred yards apart.

 

[najaB]

Surely the answer is to use stock that can accelerate as fast London Underground trains?

Hmm... third/fourth rail all the way to Wick. Should be interesting!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thankfully, said chord is in the works.

Now that *does* surprise me - but it will certainly help if the train can run south-Thurso-Wick-south with only the two reversals.

(A bus can do the other direction easily enough)

 

[najaB]

Now that *does* surprise me - but it will certainly help if the train can run south-Thurso-Wick-south with only the two reversals.

I suspect it will be South-Thurso-Wick-Thurso-South, otherwise you've added 40 minutes onto the Thurso-Inverness journey.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I suspect it will be South-Thurso-Wick-Thurso-South, otherwise you've added 40 minutes onto the Thurso-Inverness journey.

Good to see this curve is on the cards, when it happens will need to sit backwards from Wick to Thurso, then will be forwards for main part of journey.

A couple of extra loops as indicated elsewhere on the route will be good too.

 

[Highland37]

There was a report in the P&J yesterday about the lack of action at a level crossing where two people were killed ten years ago.

I find myself agreeing with the sentiment of the article as it appears that very little has been done about the level crossing.

Things really do seem to move very slowly on the railway at times.

I am really keen to see more people use the train but it's further and further behind road transport each day with new coaches, better roads and higher expectations. Apart from the price, there is little reason to take the train sometimes.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Good to see this curve is on the cards, when it happens will need to sit backwards from Wick to Thurso, then will be forwards for main part of journey.

Is it on the cards? It's been claimed to be in this thread, but on a quick Google, I can't find any authoritative reference indicating that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was a report in the P&J yesterday about the lack of action at a level crossing where two people were killed ten years ago.

If two people were killed ten years ago, particularly if they were misusing the crossing and it was apparent how it should be used, it is not a sensible target for transport investment; there are going to be places that money can be spent which will stop people being killed multiple times per year, e.g. particularly dangerous road junctions.