"Fault with third rail at Blackfriars" and knock-on cancellations on BedPan

[itfcfan]

A third rail fault is being reported at Blackfriars. This morning's services between St Pancras and Bedford seem to be wiped out as a result of this. From Flitwick/Harlington/Leagrave (stations between Bedford & Luton) there hasn't been a southbound train between ~10:40 and now.

A relative has travelled to Luton to take a southbound East Midlands Train to St Pancras. It seems East Midlands Trains are running close to normally, while almost all Thameslink services southbound are cancelled.

Is this all due to the fault at Blackfriars or are there additional slow line / electric supply problems north of St Pancras? I appreciate if trains are stuck south of Blackfriars then Thameslink north of St Pancras will be affected. Likewise, if trains can't go south into the core, disruption will result.

But it seems strange that although many Thameslink trains were running northbound to Bedford after the last southbound train at Flitwick/Harlington/Leagrave, so far no Thameslink trains have run back south.

 

[Deepgreen]

A third rail fault is being reported at Blackfriars. This morning's services between St Pancras and Bedford seem to be wiped out as a result of this. From Flitwick/Harlington/Leagrave (stations between Bedford & Luton) there hasn't been a southbound train between ~10:40 and now.

A relative has travelled to Luton to take a southbound East Midlands Train to St Pancras. It seems East Midlands Trains are running close to normally, while almost all Thameslink services southbound are cancelled.

Is this all due to the fault at Blackfriars or are there additional slow line / electric supply problems north of St Pancras? I appreciate if trains are stuck south of Blackfriars then Thameslink north of St Pancras will be affected. Likewise, if trains can't go south into the core, disruption will result.

But it seems strange that although many Thameslink trains were running northbound to Bedford after the last southbound train at Flitwick/Harlington/Leagrave, so far no Thameslink trains have run back south.

A quick look at the National Rail web site shows the amended service being run by TL. Presumably this will see quite a few 700s using London Bridge.

 

[itfcfan]

A quick look at the National Rail web site shows the amended service being run by TL. Presumably this will see quite a few 700s using London Bridge.

On the National Rail page (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/149431.aspx) I see amended routes, but not a timetable. If there is a specific emergency timetable, please send a link.

Amended routes are:

* Trains between Bedford and Brighton will be amended to run between Bedford and London St Pancras International and between London Bridge and Brighton
* Trains between Bedford and Sevenoaks will be amended to run between London Victoria and Sevenoaks.
* Trains between Luton and Sutton will run between Elephant & Castle and Sutton only

 

[Deepgreen]

On the National Rail page (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/149431.aspx) I see amended routes, but not a timetable. If there is a specific emergency timetable, please send a link.

Amended routes are:

There is likely to be no amended timetable available to the public (or even the operators for that matter). There will probably just be attempts to use existing paths for curtailed trains.

 

[A0]

A problem with the 3rd rail? Surely not, if what's often posted around here is to be believed, such problems only occur with OHLE....

On a more practical note, in the future when such things happen it will screw up the GN services as well as Thameslink.....

 

[Deepgreen]

A problem with the 3rd rail? Surely not, if what's often posted around here is to be believed, such problems only occur with OHLE....

On a more practical note, in the future when such things happen it will screw up the GN services as well as Thameslink.....

See also the class 700 thread in the 'Traction and Rolling Stock' section for much, much more...

 

[Failed Unit]

A problem with the 3rd rail? Surely not, if what's often posted around here is to be believed, such problems only occur with OHLE....

On a more practical note, in the future when such things happen it will screw up the GN services as well as Thameslink.....

Nah. GTR management have already done that by creating such a poor environment for the staff. At least GN has Moorgate and Kings Cross off peak has more spare capacity than St Pancras.

 

[Class377/5]

A problem with the 3rd rail? Surely not, if what's often posted around here is to be believed, such problems only occur with OHLE....

On a more practical note, in the future when such things happen it will screw up the GN services as well as Thameslink.....

Not really. Using this event as an example, the Thameslink services would just divert into Kings Cross with some services terminating at Finsbury Park (and then reversing in the Canal Tunnels that are designed to do this) meaning no reduction in services is possible.

 

[talltim]

Arc across an IBJ (Insulated Block Joint) at Blackfriars. 4 hour possesion to fix
Bed-Pan suffers the most as with the rebuilding of St Pancras and removal of Moorgate they have next to no terminal platform space in London

 

[Deepgreen]

Not really. Using this event as an example, the Thameslink services would just divert into Kings Cross with some services terminating at Finsbury Park (and then reversing in the Canal Tunnels that are designed to do this) meaning no reduction in services is possible.

I would have thought that a wholesale diversion into an already busy terminus would cause considerable disruption! It takes far less than that to do so at the moment. BTW, why is a reduction in services not possible? Surely there is always the option of running fewer trains during such events?

 

[SPADTrap]

Not really. Using this event as an example, the Thameslink services would just divert into Kings Cross with some services terminating at Finsbury Park (and then reversing in the Canal Tunnels that are designed to do this) meaning no reduction in services is possible.

I had to laugh! :roll:

 

[Andy-mc]

I wondered why there was a 700 on the EastMids side of Pancras earlier

 

[bramling]

Not really. Using this event as an example, the Thameslink services would just divert into Kings Cross with some services terminating at Finsbury Park (and then reversing in the Canal Tunnels that are designed to do this) meaning no reduction in services is possible.

"Just" divert into King's Cross.

First of all, watch out for Finsbury Park degenerating into complete chaos - both the National Rail and LU parts of the station.

Secondly what happens if King's Cross can't accommodate the extra trains - leading to blocking back into London.

Finally what happens to trains where the driver is booked to finish south of the river?

It may all work beautifully on paper, but as soon as you introduce passengers and crews it's just not so simple. Speaking to colleagues caught up in today's Thameslink chaos seems to confirm this - one waiting at his station for over an hour for a train to London.

 

[hwl]

NR's video of the smoking IBJ:

https://twitter.com/networkrail/status/789455901333782528

 

[westcoaster]

But it seems strange that although many Thameslink trains were running northbound to Bedford after the last southbound train at Flitwick/Harlington/Leagrave, so far no Thameslink trains have run back south.

You have to factor in where the drivers are stuck and it will all unravel from there. At the time you mention a lot of the drivers north of the river will be drivers from Brighton and blackfriars ( going by the time of day ) so they may not have the route knowledge to go to St Pancras high level. Plus they might be low on hours so can't keep going back and forth. Likewise a lot of Bedford drivers will be stuck south of the river, so would need to be on the other side of the block.

 

[pdeaves]

BTW, why is a reduction in services not possible? Surely there is always the option of running fewer trains during such events?

I think that means 'it its possible not to reduce the service' (though I might be wrong!).

 

[Class377/5]

I would have thought that a wholesale diversion into an already busy terminus would cause considerable disruption! It takes far less than that to do so at the moment. BTW, why is a reduction in services not possible? Surely there is always the option of running fewer trains during such events?

Why? The current services will be lessened with just the Kings Lynn services using kings Cross off peak so there is far more room.

The reduction of services means you give hourly services to some stations. Not idea and significantly disruptive to people.

I had to laugh! :roll:

Why?

"Just" divert into King's Cross.

First of all, watch out for Finsbury Park degenerating into complete chaos - both the National Rail and LU parts of the station.

Secondly what happens if King's Cross can't accommodate the extra trains - leading to blocking back into London.

Finally what happens to trains where the driver is booked to finish south of the river?

It may all work beautifully on paper, but as soon as you introduce passengers and crews it's just not so simple. Speaking to colleagues caught up in today's Thameslink chaos seems to confirm this - one waiting at his station for over an hour for a train to London.

So somehow the current 4tph that will transfer to Thameslink is too much for the station to cope with? Even tho it copes just fine today?

Terminating 2tph or 4tph at Finsbury Park will bring the station to its knees? Nope. That's just complete crap.

If a driver is required to go south, then simply terminate the train at Finsbury and run it into the depot if another driver cannot be found. There will be other drivers awaiting trains in the other direction waiting for trains that can be used however.

However my ideas are not based on paper but several years of running the service in far worse situations.

I cannot see the issue of having these trains go to Kings Cross like they do now. We are talking about an max increase on 2tph today which is hardly going to bring the railway to its knees.

 

[rebmcr]

Arc across an IBJ (Insulated Block Joint) at Blackfriars. 4 hour possesion to fix
Bed-Pan suffers the most as with the rebuilding of St Pancras and removal of Moorgate they have next to no terminal platform space in London

Pocket sidings south of Kentish Town would be nice, but good luck to anyone trying to find space for them.

 

[D1009]

"Just" divert into King's Cross.

First of all, watch out for Finsbury Park degenerating into complete chaos - both the National Rail and LU parts of the station.

Secondly what happens if King's Cross can't accommodate the extra trains - leading to blocking back into London.

In theory, King's Cross will have more capacity than currently as many of the Thameslink trains replace those currently running into King's Cross. But...

Finally what happens to trains where the driver is booked to finish south of the river?

It may all work beautifully on paper, but as soon as you introduce passengers and crews it's just not so simple. Speaking to colleagues caught up in today's Thameslink chaos seems to confirm this - one waiting at his station for over an hour for a train to London.

 

[bramling]

Terminating 2tph or 4tph at Finsbury Park will bring the station to its knees? Nope. That's just complete crap.

What about peak times?

I can only assume you haven't actually used Finsbury Park station when the service is disrupted. Narrow island platforms, each accessed by just one narrow staircase, a single narrow subway connecting all the platforms, and the Underground platforms accessed by spiral staircase.

Now imagine whole train loads of people using this, on top of the normal interchange traffic, short-notice changes of platform, and all the while more people arriving off the Underground.

It's not complete crap, it's reality. I have seen this reality with my own eyes many times, the station can actually be quite scary when overcrowded.

Remember the Christmas fiasco a couple of years back?

If a driver is required to go south, then simply terminate the train at Finsbury and run it into the depot if another driver cannot be found.

Or in reality, block the railway for a few minutes whilst control make their mind up what they're going to do with the train, spend time emptying out the train, and meanwhile the station is congested with a train load of passengers who now don't know where to go.

This would all be happening right now if today were 2018. Thankfully it's not 2018, so myself and thousands of others should get home on time tonight.

However my ideas are not based on paper but several years of running the service in far worse situations.

Care to share your specific experiences of these far worse situations?

 

[NSE]

I've long been of the opinion it's all going to go down the Kermit spectacularly when it goes wrong. But you do raise a good point about Finsbury Park. It's bad enough when Arsenal have played and that's for a shorter amount of time and with less passengers than during the peaks

 

[A0]

Arc across an IBJ (Insulated Block Joint) at Blackfriars. 4 hour possesion to fix
Bed-Pan suffers the most as with the rebuilding of St Pancras and removal of Moorgate they have next to no terminal platform space in London

To be fair, they only had a couple of platforms at Moorgate, so no real gain against turning at Faringdon or St P. And on St P now, at least the platforms are wired and can be used by TL, whereas with the old station before the rebuild the OHL had been removed from Kentish Town as it wasn't being used.

There's also alot of platform capacity at Kentish Town.

 

[Deepgreen]

Why? The current services will be lessened with just the Kings Lynn services using kings Cross off peak so there is far more room.

The reduction of services means you give hourly services to some stations. Not idea and significantly disruptive to people.

.

I was referring to your post which included the phrase: "...meaning no reduction in services is possible." I can now see what you were trying to say, i.e. that it may be possible to avoid a reduction in service, not that it would be impossible to reduce the service.

Off peak is one thing - and how long, I wonder will such a supposed surfeit of capacity at a London terminus be allowed to persist before being used up by demands from TOCs which become aware of the spare capacity - but problems causing service diversion do not seem to occur at conveniently quiet times. My experience of significant service diversion is that it almost never goes well.

 

[Hadders]

I got caught up in this today. I needed to be at Luton Airport to catch a flight early this afternoon, following a meeting in Bedford. So my plan was to drive to Harlington, park there and get the train/shuttle bus to the airport and avoid the rip-off airport parking fees.

I just missed the 1154. The 1208, 1224 and 1238 were all showing as cancelled on the departure boards. I checked realtimetrains.co.uk and nationalrail.co.uk and there was nothing that gave me any confidence that anything was going to turn up any time soon. With the final check in for my flight at 1300 so not wishing to risk it any longer I went to the taxi office at the front of the station and arranged a taxi.

Just as the taxi was pulling out of the car park (must've been around 1215) in rolled a southbound Thameslink service......

I get that disruption occurs but what I don't understand is why the train that arrived as I left the station couldn't/wasn't shown on the departure boards.

Thankfully the taxi got me to the airport in time (although £25 lighter)

 

[JB_B]

I get that disruption occurs but what I don't understand is why the train that arrived as I left the station couldn't/wasn't shown on the departure boards.

I hit the tail-end of this disruption this evening heading south from Three Bridges. As usual, long since departed/cancelled/who-knows-what trains ( a couple from around 1000) were still showing as "on-time" around 2030 - why do GTR always do this?

Meanwhile my train ran but was shown twice (cancelled from platform five and, separately, as on-time but with no platform).

 

[Bishopstone]

There might be rolling stock to turn short, or divert, but my experience south of the river - in times of serious infrastructure problems such as this - is of drivers not ready to take trains: because they are out of hours, awaiting instructions, or not where control expect to find them.

Might there be a better way to track-down displaced drivers than PA announcements at major stations, desperately seeking Driver Bloggs of Brighton?

 

[Abpj17]

I was on one of the trains near the brink of disruption. We stopped at St Pancras. We were originally told it was a a fault with a train ahead of us. And then that we would be able to progress through going to the other line (bidirectional?). Several trains passed going north. We were eventually all kicked of at St P with the train then going back to Cricklewood.

The quality of information available was very poor. The driver was great but it wasn’t clear he was being kept up to date.

Information for the journey home was near non-existent. Normally an emergency timetable is provided - in this case it was a vague every 15 minutes with no clarity over whether this would be the case all night. I went for the option of an EMT train (23.15 to Derby) and then a slightly longer taxi (I live in Leagrave so taxi from town centre of Luton isn’t too awful)

Ticket acceptance didn’t seem to have been put in place for the morning for the Tube.

I can’t see how Finsbury Park could possibly cope. The 700s hold a large number of passengers. The one I was one was busy with plenty standing. And loads and loads of suitcases. For the same reason that terminating at Kentish Town is an option if you know early enough - but capacity and the bottleneck for switching to the tube make it a problem.

The night before had been random disruption as well with two trains around 23:00 from Blackfriars flicking in and out of being delayed/cancelled. Again, the quality of information was very poor.

 

[Ze Random One]

I felt for the Sutton and Sevenoaks line users (particularly the latter, as there ain't no buses after dark in those parts of Kent)

In the evening peak, there didn't seem to be anything stopping at Shoreham or Eynesford, at least there were no announcements at Bromley S to indicate any were, and Bat and Ball appeared completely unserved. Advice to passengers to go to Sevenoaks via Orpington is useless for intermediate journeys.

The Catford loop was generally not too badly off, with 1 Orpington to Victoria train in 2 or 3 that would normally go via Penge being sent up the loop instead, and some fast Kent services being given stop orders to pick up the missed Penge/Beckenham calls.

The need for a better contingency plan for the Core being unexpectedly severed is obvious, but I don't think that'll happen until minds are properly focussed both in Marsham St. and GTR's offices. It is plainly obvious that GTR have already been stumbling from contingency to contingency, and you can't fight fires, put plans in place to mitigate or prevent the next fire, all while staff morale is poor, and costs (and corners) are being cut to meet an impossible bid price while retaining shareholder value. Marsham st. seem to think throwing money at the problem is enough, while seemingly doing their best to ensure that money doesn't go towards staff relations.

 

[talltim]

:roll:

To be fair, they only had a couple of platforms at Moorgate, so no real gain against turning at Faringdon or St P. And on St P now, at least the platforms are wired and can be used by TL, whereas with the old station before the rebuild the OHL had been removed from Kentish Town as it wasn't being used.

There's also alot of platform capacity at Kentish Town.

I hadn't realised that the overhead had been taken out for a while, I last commuted on Thameslink in 2001