Fare Evasion- court?

[jzyt9]

Hello,

Today I was stopped at Wakefield Westgate as I failed to produce a valid ticket, and have been informed they will start legal proceedings, likely resulting in a court case.

Firstly, I feel I need to justify why I was travelling without a valid ticket. I had purchased a ticket from Leeds to Burley Park in order to visit a friend, however, my mother phoned me whilst I was waiting for a train, and she was very distressed. This was because my sister, who is severally mentally ill had tried to take her own life the previous day, and she had just refused to let my mother visit her in hospital, which understandably had upset her. So I wanting to comfort her, rushed onto the first train home to Wakefield. I know this sounds like a sob story, but I have no reason to lie and I will happily say this if it came to court as I have evidence for it. But, this should give you all clarity why I travelled without a ticket, as I wasn't exactly rationally thinking, or in all honesty was fare evasion laws at the forefront of my mind.

So, Wakefield Barrier staff stopped me at the barrier, and I admitted I didnt have a valid ticket. I asked if there was a way to pay, but instead I was questioned in order that Virgin can take proceedings against me. Whilst being questioned a man approached the barrier, and he also failed to produce a ticket, however, when told this he simply vaulted the barrier and the train staff simply let him go. I know this may just be a "life is unfair" situation, but would I be able to use that in my case? So after being questioned, I was cooperative, however I was uncomfortable with idea of sharing the exact details with the man (Yes, I know I'm now 'sharing' this information to a forum, but there is a degree of anonymity to this), so I told him I had planned to go Burley Park, but I then needed urgently to go to Wakefield. So I was let out after being told I will hear from them and I will be possibly facing court action.

Later I rang Virgin Customer Services (the barrier staff were with Virgin) in order to gain some further insight on the situation. I told them the situation and the lady I spoke to, queried the legal team about the situation. There response was that I should have been given the opportunity to pay the fare (I wasn't) and that I should have been given some form of receipt. Furthermore, when I mentioned I was threatened with court, the lady on the phone stated "you wont be going to court". I know she obviously has no legal authority, but yet again does this provide me with any defence? Finally, they said in contradiction to the barrier staff I will simply be posted a fine demanding the payment of the fare, not as the barrier staff mentioned legal proceedings.

So what I really need to know is:

A) If my situation can be considered 'exceptional'
B) What is the likelihood of this going to court, and if so the possibility of out of court settlement. As any criminal record will have a serious impact on my career in the Foreign Office
C) How much will an out of court settlement be? (Leeds to Wakefield is £3.90)

Any advice will be hugely appreciated, as you can imagine this has just become an extra and unwelcome worry for an already horrendous couple of days. I also want to assure everyone this is my first time having trouble with the law and fare evasion, I always travel with tickets, as Im very much aware it is fraud not to.

regards,

 

[najaB]

So what I really need to know is:

A) If my situation can be considered 'exceptional'

No, not really. In spite of the circumstances there is only one question that needs to be answered "Did you have a ticket when asked?" The answer is "No" so the offence is complete.

B) What is the likelihood of this going to court, and if so the possibility of out of court settlement. As any criminal record will have a serious impact on my career in the Foreign Office.

It is very difficult to put numbers on it, but if you cooperate with Virgin and take responsibility for not having a ticket it is more likely than not that they will close the matter by way of a payment.

C) How much will an out of court settlement be? (Leeds to Wakefield is £3.90)

Again, impossible to be accurate as each case is different, but it could just be the fare due or a settlement figure somewhere between £80 and £150 would be typical.

 

[CheesyChips]

There's an element of just waiting to see what arrives in the post with this as that's your first real piece of communication with them. Anything said over the phone is subject to misunderstanding and isn't generally recorded. They're certainly not bound to act in the way they tell you on the phone.

The law is very simple in that you will have committed a railway bylaw offence which is by no means the end of the world but the fine imposed at Magistrates court can work out very expensive in relation to the fare that wasn't paid.

Court isn't a knee jerk reaction for train companies and many like Virgin will send you a letter asking for an administrative settlement if you're not a prolofic offender and the offence minor.

They may indeed as you have mentioned send you a letter asking for the fare having taken into account your circumstances (they are human).

You just don't know what they're going to do until the letter drops on the mat.

The other person vaulting the barriers is irrelevant to your case.

 

[jzyt9]

Thank you for your replies and honesty. I'll wait for the letter it seems and proceed from there.

najaB- I was just wondering how you know out of court settlements tend to be the case "more than likely"- I'm in know way doubting you or saying I dont trust you, I'm just worried and would like as much details as possible.

 

[jzyt9]

Thank you for your replies and honesty. I'll wait for the letter it seems and proceed from there.

najaB- I was just wondering how you know out of court settlements tend to be the case "more than likely"- I'm in know way doubting you or saying I dont trust you, I'm just worried and would like as much details as possible.

 

[ainsworth74]

najaB- I was just wondering how you know out of court settlements tend to be the case "more than likely"- I'm in know way doubting you or saying I dont trust you, I'm just worried and would like as much details as possible.

If you read back through this section you'll find many many examples of people who settled out of court. It does seem to be, for first time offenders and where there is no other aggravating factor (such as tampering with the ticket), the preferred method of resolving such matters for train companies.

But, note, that whilst it is the most probable course of action for Virgin it is by no means guaranteed that this is how they will proceed.

 

[najaB]

najaB- I was just wondering how you know out of court settlements tend to be the case "more than likely"- I'm in know way doubting you or saying I dont trust you, I'm just worried and would like as much details as possible.

As ainsworth74 said, if you aren't already 'known' to the railway for fare evasion and there aren't any extenuating circumstances then it is more productive for them to settle than to drag you into court.

 

[jzyt9]

Ainsworth74- Of course thank you, I'm obviously very new to this forum and probably should have consulted previous posts first.

I understand all that is said here is purely advice and previous experience and in now way any guarantee. Thanks for your time and reply. I will wait for their correspondence and try to settle this with them in a cooperative manner.

najaB- I'm not 'known' as I have never had this sort of issue or tried to scam the railways before in my life by fare dodging. Yet again, your advice is really appreciated, and is certainly helping me to calm down about the situation. Thank you ever so much.

 

[bb21]

I'm going to be really blunt and say that it does not look good without anything to back your story up. It has "deliberate fare evasion" written all over it. Burley Park is the cheapest single that will allow you through the gates at Leeds and is a very popular trick by fare evaders. It is cheaper than the fare to Wakefield, and Wakefield gates are often left unattended ime. While I have sympathy for your situation, it all sounds too much of a coincidence to be believable.

You really need something to validate your story. Is there any particular reason you intended to go to Burley Park? Is there anything you can use to back this up? Whether you had a family emergency is a bit of a red herring in your case imo, but if as you claim, you have a family member who was admitted to hospital as you say, it could help if you could provide evidence for that. If you cannot show strong proof to back up your story the least you will be looking at is either a big settlement or a Byelaw prosecution.

 

[jzyt9]

bb21- I understand that, my friend is living in Burley Park and we had arranged to meet for a drink (I have a phone conversation in order to arrange that, so I suppose not physical evidence, same case with my mum she rang me). As for the later, I have more than enough evidence to prove that I'm not lying about that. My sister is at a hospital right now that can easily be confirmed and the fact there was a manhunt for her the previous day by the police, is further solid evidence I'm not trying to deceive. As I said I have no intention to lie as that wont benefit me as I'm trying to get the best information I can in order to understand where I stand and what I should do, all of this is what I would say in a court of law, and thus am perfectly aware it'll be fact checked.

 

[bb21]

If you can provide evidence to back up your story as above then I am hopeful that the train company will be willing to be more lenient, especially if this is a first-time offence, so all I can say is good luck, even if I can't offer you any guarantees. Make sure that you start collecting evidence straight away while you wait for the letter to arrive, which would ask for your version of the events and any mitigation.

 

[jzyt9]

bb21- Thank you for your honesty, I realise how hard to believe it sounds myself, and this was a large reason I felt paranoid not to discuss it with the barrier staff along with other sensitive issues. By gathering evidence what will that entitle? Just hospital records? Because surely they can't get anything from from my phone call evidence as that is purely just listed as a call on my phone and not the conversation that took place.

 

[Agent_c]

So, Wakefield Barrier staff stopped me at the barrier, and I admitted I didnt have a valid ticket. I asked if there was a way to pay, but instead I was questioned in order that Virgin can take proceedings against me. Whilst being questioned a man approached the barrier, and he also failed to produce a ticket, however, when told this he simply vaulted the barrier and the train staff simply let him go. I know this may just be a "life is unfair" situation, but would I be able to use that in my case?

No, another's actions don't excuse your own. Just forget about that line of defence entirely.

 

[jzyt9]

Agent_c- Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I think in hindsight I was clutching at straws and was possibly a bit frustrated at the situation. Noted though, best not to mention that thanks.

 

[bb21]

bb21- Thank you for your honesty, I realise how hard to believe it sounds myself, and this was a large reason I felt paranoid not to discuss it with the barrier staff along with other sensitive issues. By gathering evidence what will that entitle? Just hospital records? Because surely they can't get anything from from my phone call evidence as that is purely just listed as a call on my phone and not the conversation that took place.

Anything that can help back up your story, like you say, hospital record for example.

There is no definitive list, but obviously the aim is you trying to persuade them it was a genuine case of family emergency and last-minute change of plan. I do feel that if you can gather some evidence to show that there was a genuine reason for buying a ticket to Burley Park then that would help but that may not be possible of course. Even if not, something like appropriate hospital record should still help build credibility for your story. It still doesn't rule out the possibility of receiving the phone call then buying the cheapest ticket to get through the gate, which is why I felt evidence of purposeful visit to Burley Park would be more important, eg. text/facebook messages arranging to meet up, but it is better than nothing at all, and pursuing one-off cases harshly is not always a productive use of their time.

Caseworkers are human after all. They will use discretion and can empathise, but you have to give them a reason to.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .

najaB- I was just wondering how you know out of court settlements tend to be the case "more than likely"- I'm in know way doubting you or saying I dont trust you, I'm just worried and would like as much details as possible.

Because the different train companies tend to have their own preferred procedures and which is demonstrated by their approach to fare evasion and ticketless travel. And, because it is known that the Companies involved here have a very distinct preference to treat first time fare evaders / ticketless passengers with an offer of an alternative resolution to dispose of the matter (an alternative to a Criminal Prosecution in the Magistrates Court).

Having said that, this observation by BB21 will not be lost on the Investigating Officer looking at the facts of your incident:-

I'm going to be really blunt and say that it does not look good without anything to back your story up. It has "deliberate fare evasion" written all over it. Burley Park is the cheapest single that will allow you through the gates at Leeds and is a very popular trick by fare evaders. It is cheaper than the fare to Wakefield, and Wakefield gates are often left unattended ime. While I have sympathy for your situation, it all sounds too much of a coincidence to be believable.
. . .

There are thousands of fare evaders / ticketless passengers identified in the north of England every day - a very great proportion of them claim to have travelled from the nearest possible station, and the periodic records of ticket sales and the head-counts on-board and at stations are in complete variance with each other, the difference being more sales from the closer stations than the persons travelling from the further stations. It is also a known fact that a significant number of fare evaders / ticketless passengers will have claimed that an exceptional personal circumstance has occurred within the past 24 hours - in contrast with the frequency of exceptional personal circumstances occurring within the population at large.

However, none of these thoughts will be of help in your circumstances other than to prepare you for the unwelcome possibility that your version of events will probably be treated with less sympathy that you might feel they deserve.

Having said all that, the prospects of reaching an alternative disposal are high as najaB has said on the grounds that this is a first-time incident. But if you wanted to argue your circumstances in mitigation, then I'd not encourage you to put much hope on their persuasiveness.

 

[clagmonster]

bb21- Thank you for your honesty, I realise how hard to believe it sounds myself, and this was a large reason I felt paranoid not to discuss it with the barrier staff along with other sensitive issues. By gathering evidence what will that entitle? Just hospital records? Because surely they can't get anything from from my phone call evidence as that is purely just listed as a call on my phone and not the conversation that took place.

I think in this position I would be looking for a record of the hospital admission and refusal of your Mother's visit and statements from your Mother and friend of the contents of the telephone conversations. Keep the records of the calls as well. If there is anything written, even a text message letting your friend know you weren't going to Burley Park, then all the better.

It will not absolve you of guilt for the byelaw offence, and possibly not the more serious offence of avoiding the fare due, but it may persuade the company that it isn't worth prosecuting. It could also be useful mitigation should the worst happen and you be convicted.

One question I do have is how long was there between the telephone conversation with your Mother and you boarding the train to Wakefield? Legally it doesn't make any odds, but again if an emergency cropped up and there was no time to pay your fare at that point, it may be a slight shred of further mitigation.

Also, to confirm did you at least have a means to pay with you. Were you asked anything along the lines of 'if I hadn't stopped you, would you otherwise have paid your fare?'?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But if you wanted to argue your circumstances in mitigation, then I'd not encourage you to put much hope on their persuasiveness.

I agree the circumstances could only be used as mitigation, but would you say that obtaining evidence of them, rather than just giving the story, would increase the persuasiveness of such in reducing sentence?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

AIt still doesn't rule out the possibility of receiving the phone call then buying the cheapest ticket to get through the gate,

I suppose a timeline, with the date stamp on the ticket and the time on the call log could easily be constructed to rule this possibility in or out.

 

[jzyt9]

Okay, well the evidence I have is the obvious police case and hospital record. But as for the Burley Park case I have only a phone conversation on monday and a text conversation earlier today where I said I would let him know if I wasnt able to come due to obvious circumstances. As for my mothers phone call, that was made shortly after I had already purchased my ticket.

Anyway, I think dwelling on it will on exacerbate the issue. I will wait, but really BB21 you've been a great help, really appreciate your time and knowledge.

 

[furlong]

As for the man who vaulted the barrier, don't assume he has got away with it - there are different processes to catch people like that.

 

[Master29]

As for the man who vaulted the barrier, don't assume he has got away with it - there are different processes to catch people like that.

I was thinking the same thing. If it`s a known hot spot for fare evaders (which from some of the replies seems to be the case) then that makes this a little more likely. To the OP I agree it seems unfair but that`s not really going to help your case though.

 

[timbo58]

I'm frankly disturbed by the Virgin customer cares responses to be fair:

You should have been given the opportunity to pay (incorrect, you'd already had the opportunity to pay at the start station) therefore they don't have to offer another.
You should have been given a receipt (what for? you didn't buy anything when questioned)
you wont be going to court nonsense -it's not possible to know if a case is going to go to court as the matter has been reported for possible prosecution -only the TOC prosecutions person/department can make this decision and even then they can change their mind if any offer made isn't complied with.

No one other than the TOC prosecutions person can tell you for sure whether it's actionable or not and IME is that staff are warned not to give customers any hint that the report may result in one thing or another since they cannot possibly know.

 

[najaB]

I'm frankly disturbed by the Virgin customer cares responses to be fair...

You should have been given a receipt (what for? you didn't buy anything when questioned)

If your ticket is taken as part of a report then the Guard/TM/RPI is obliged to give you a receipt confirming same.

 

[Haywain]

If your ticket is taken as part of a report then the Guard/TM/RPI is obliged to give you a receipt confirming same.

However, it would probably be unwise to think that a prosecution might fail if such an omission were to occur. The TOC have your ticket and your statement and stating that they failed to give you a receipt would, in my opinion, merely confirm that the ticket was the one that you had held when you were stopped.

 

[najaB]

However, it would probably be unwise to think that a prosecution might fail if such an omission were to occur. The TOC have your ticket and your statement and stating that they failed to give you a receipt would, in my opinion, merely confirm that the ticket was the one that you had held when you were stopped.

Indeed it would. I was just pointing out that the CS team were not incorrect to state that the OP should have received a receipt.

 

[bb21]

If your ticket is taken as part of a report then the Guard/TM/RPI is obliged to give you a receipt confirming same.

Not quite.

The rule is that you must be given a receipt to enable the customer to complete his journey.

In this case it was at the end of the journey, so there is no obligation to issue a receipt.

 

[najaB]

Not quite.

The rule is that you must be given a receipt to enable the customer to complete his journey.

In this case it was at the end of the journey, so there is no obligation to issue a receipt.

Right, indeed it was. Wasn't paying attention there.

For completeness, it is also the case that a receipt would be provided for a confiscated season ticket.