Red or White poppy

[Baxenden Bank]

I can not actually believe you would, in honesty, suggest they are worthy of remembrance. It is perverse.

I do not suggest that those specific individuals are particularly worthy of remembrance. How would you suggest that I separate out the good dead from the bad dead?

By not remembering any of them, ever?

Or by remembering them all and accepting that some of those were rotten apples?

So, this year I will buy a red poppy and remember only the glorious British Tommy and completely ignore the millions of German troops that died in WWI and WWII or the tens of millions of Russian troops and civilians.

 

[anme]

Out of interest, which wars are people remembering when they wear a poppy of whatever colour? I assume the first world war (1914-1918), and the second (1939-1945). What about the Norman invasion (1066)? The Wars of the Roses (1455-1487)? The Indian mutiny (1857-1858)? The Second Boer War (1899-1902)? The Mau Mau uprising (1952-1960)? The invasion of Iraq (2003-2009)?

 

[backontrack]

To say British troops are comparable to ISIS is disgusting in my opinion but no doubt the usual suspects will agree with you.

The usual suspects? Who the hell are 'the usual suspects'?

Are they just anyone vaguely left wing who might support the white poppy? What about me? Am I in that group? I say some quite lefty things. Or TheKnightWho? Is he in that group? Is it because he's said something reasonable? What about other people? I'm sure there are plenty of members who agree with the fact that any war is bad war. Are they in that group? Or are 'the usual suspects' the people who, quite rightly so, will disagree with you when you say something so daft? Does that make us any less credible? Does that make us terrorists?

I do not think you can compare British troops to ISIS. Not one bit. For a start, the British troops aren't responsible for those deaths. The leaders are. British soldiers haven't done anything so barbaric in...well, I don't know if they have. Those terrorists are the [redacted] of the earth.

As said before, the white poppy isn't about trying to make everyone seem equal. It's not about remembering terrorists. Terrorists aren't equal to British soldiers, because of the bloody acts they have carried out. There is no question of that.

The white poppy is about remembering how terrible war is. It is an action against war. That is its meaning. If it could speak, it would basically say "The British loss is shocking. War caused that...let's not let it do that again", instead of just the first part of that. And I support the white poppy. And I will wear one. And that does not mean I condone violence and terrorism. And that does not mean that I'm a far-left flag-waving communist, either, neither does it mean that I'm not credible. I just want war to end. Can't you see that?

 

[AM9]

Out of interest, which wars are people remembering when they wear a poppy of whatever colour? I assume the first world war (1914-1918), and the second (1939-1945). What about the Norman invasion (1066)? The Wars of the Roses (1455-1487)? The Indian mutiny (1857-1858)? The Second Boer War (1899-1902)? The Mau Mau uprising (1952-1960)? The invasion of Iraq (2003-2009)?

Of those who actually do think about war when they wear a red poppy, I would add the Falklands (1982) which would still be within living memory of the majority of the population and was very much a 'TV News war'.

 

[Lankyline]

This quote is taken from when the Flanders field poppy was first launched
"as the means by which funds could be raised to support those in need of help, most especially servicemen and civilians suffering from physical and mental hardship as a result of war.'
The fact is that the red poppy is the traditional colour of remembrance because of where it has originated from namely Flanders and as its original intention, as stated in the quote above is not just about service personnel, so why the need for white poppies then?

 

[anme]

Of those who actually do think about war when they wear a red poppy, I would add the Falklands (1982) which would still be within living memory of the majority of the population and was very much a 'TV News war'.

I think I phrased my question badly. Maybe I should have written "which wars do you NOT remember?".

The Falklands war is certainly in living memory, but there are no surviving combatants from the First World War as far as I know, and we still remember that. I have never heard the Second Boer War mentioned with regard to remembrance days, even in my childhood when it was much less distant than the first world war is today.

It's interesting that you mention the Falklands war, but not the Gulf war (1991) or the Aden Emergency (1963-1967) or the Korean War (1950-1953) - all within living memory. And do you really remember the dead of the Norman conquest or the Wars of the Roses?

I'm just curious about what these remembrance customs are actually about.

Note: if you need a crib sheet for conflicts involving the UK, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_involving_the_United_Kingdom

 

[AlterEgo]

This quote is taken from when the Flanders field poppy was first launched
"as the means by which funds could be raised to support those in need of help, most especially servicemen and civilians suffering from physical and mental hardship as a result of war.'
The fact is that the red poppy is the traditional colour of remembrance because of where it has originated from namely Flanders and as its original intention, as stated in the quote above is not just about service personnel, so why the need for white poppies then?

So where does the British Legion money from the poppy appeal go?

It's to current and former servicemen and their families who need assistance. No bad thing, but it most certainly doesn't go to civilians.

 

[Steveman]

The usual suspects? Who the hell are 'the usual suspects'?

Are they just anyone vaguely left wing who might support the white poppy? What about me? Am I in that group? I say some quite lefty things. Or TheKnightWho? Is he in that group? Is it because he's said something reasonable? What about other people? I'm sure there are plenty of members who agree with the fact that any war is bad war. Are they in that group? Or are 'the usual suspects' the people who, quite rightly so, will disagree with you when you say something so daft? Does that make us any less credible? Does that make us terrorists?

I do not think you can compare British troops to ISIS. Not one bit. For a start, the British troops aren't responsible for those deaths. The leaders are. British soldiers haven't done anything so barbaric in...well, I don't know if they have. Those terrorists are the [redacted] of the earth.

As said before, the white poppy isn't about trying to make everyone seem equal. It's not about remembering terrorists. Terrorists aren't equal to British soldiers, because of the bloody acts they have carried out. There is no question of that.

The white poppy is about remembering how terrible war is. It is an action against war. That is its meaning. If it could speak, it would basically say "The British loss is shocking. War caused that...let's not let it do that again", instead of just the first part of that. And I support the white poppy. And I will wear one. And that does not mean I condone violence and terrorism. And that does not mean that I'm a far-left flag-waving communist, either, neither does it mean that I'm not credible. I just want war to end. Can't you see that?

For a start I never even mentioned the white poppy in my post so why you're raving about that I don't know.
You can wear the white one or even the black one that the Afghanistanis wear if you like who cares.
My post was simply to mention that a poster on here was comparing the British army to ISIS, I find that abhorrent but I know not all posters will and that's rather sad.
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So where does the British Legion money from the poppy appeal go?

It's to current and former servicemen and their families who need assistance. No bad thing, but it most certainly doesn't go to civilians.

Surely any former service personnel and their families are civilians.

 

[Barn]

The white poppy is about remembering how terrible war is. It is an action against war. That is its meaning. If it could speak, it would basically say "The British loss is shocking. War caused that...let's not let it do that again", instead of just the first part of that. And I support the white poppy. And I will wear one. And that does not mean I condone violence and terrorism. And that does not mean that I'm a far-left flag-waving communist, either, neither does it mean that I'm not credible. I just want war to end. Can't you see that?

There are wars and there are wars. I don't like the recent trend of trying to find equivalences in everything.

WW1 was fairly stupid all round. Our participation in WW2 was just and it would, I submit, have been wrong and a betrayal of our humanity not to fight for good against evil.

If our history had been made up entirely of conflicts like WW1, I would probably wear a white poppy. I entirely respect those who decide to wear it or to wear none.

But seeing as our troops died in WW2 to save us from invasion, to defeat fascism, to open the gates on concentration camps, it feels entirely wrong to me to suggest that all war is always wrong. It robs the dead of the justice of what they were doing. It implies that their lives were merely wasted by warmongering leaders. All wars involve wasted life, but the responsibility for that lies with the initial aggressor. We all want wars to end but sometimes, unfortunately, to be a peacemaker is to join the fight.

Do you think we should have not resisted the Nazis merely because war is bad and we shouldn't go through it all again?

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely any former service personnel and their families are civilians.

You know what I meant. My post was to counter the assertion that the appeal wasn't just about service personnel. It is. It's a military charity.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

There are wars and there are wars. I don't like the recent trend of trying to find equivalences in everything.

WW1 was fairly stupid all round. Our participation in WW2 was just and it would, I submit, have been wrong and a betrayal of our humanity not to fight for good against evil.

If our history had been made up entirely of conflicts like WW1, I would probably wear a white poppy. I entirely respect those who decide to wear it or to wear none.

But seeing as our troops died in WW2 to save us from invasion, to defeat fascism, to open the gates on concentration camps, it feels entirely wrong to me to suggest that all war is always wrong. It robs the dead of the justice of what they were doing. It implies that their lives were merely wasted by warmongering leaders. All wars involve wasted life, but the responsibility for that lies with the initial aggressor. We all want wars to end but sometimes, unfortunately, to be a peacemaker is to join the fight.

Do you think we should have not resisted the Nazis merely because war is bad and we shouldn't go through it all again?

Excellent post.

 

[Steveman]

There are wars and there are wars. I don't like the recent trend of trying to find equivalences in everything.

WW1 was fairly stupid all round. Our participation in WW2 was just and it would, I submit, have been wrong and a betrayal of our humanity not to fight for good against evil.

If our history had been made up entirely of conflicts like WW1, I would probably wear a white poppy. I entirely respect those who decide to wear it or to wear none.

But seeing as our troops died in WW2 to save us from invasion, to defeat fascism, to open the gates on concentration camps, it feels entirely wrong to me to suggest that all war is always wrong. It robs the dead of the justice of what they were doing. It implies that their lives were merely wasted by warmongering leaders. All wars involve wasted life, but the responsibility for that lies with the initial aggressor. We all want wars to end but sometimes, unfortunately, to be a peacemaker is to join the fight.

Do you think we should have not resisted the Nazis merely because war is bad and we shouldn't go through it all again?

This idea that NO war is ever justified is simply idealistic, like you say the pacifists would have stood back in WW11 and allowed the Nazis to simply walk in unopposed.They actually said that at the time. It would be great if war could stop tomorrow and that should be the aim but we know it isn't going to happen.

 

[backontrack]

There are wars and there are wars. I don't like the recent trend of trying to find equivalences in everything.

True.

WW1 was fairly stupid all round. Our participation in WW2 was just and it would, I submit, have been wrong and a betrayal of our humanity not to fight for good against evil.

Once again, true.

I can see your point here. My point isn't that we shouldn't enter into conflict when we have to (like in WW2 when there was a clear threat). My point was that mankind should work together, regardless of country, to prevent war.
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This idea that NO war is ever justified is simply idealistic, like you say the pacifists would have stood back in WW11 and allowed the Nazis to simply walk in unopposed.They actually said that at the time. It would be great if war could stop tomorrow and that should be the aim but we know it isn't going to happen.

Generalisation? No thanks. Not everyone is always going to think the same thing - otherwise, we would both agree.
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For a start I never even mentioned the white poppy in my post so why you're raving about that I don't know.
You can wear the white one or even the black one that the Afghanistanis wear if you like who cares.

Isn't the white poppy how this all started though? Someone said that they wore a white poppy and gave their reason why. You then argued against that. There's not much point in trying to disguise the point you're making.

My post was simply to mention that a poster on here was comparing the British army to ISIS, I find that abhorrent but I know not all posters will and that's rather sad.

How do you know? And besides, maybe you should try to work out what was actually meant. Many people post daft things on internet forums and then try to backtrack on them. You, for instance.

 

[Steveman]

Isn't the white poppy how this all started though? Someone said that they wore a white poppy and gave their reason why. You then argued against that. There's not much point in trying to disguise the point you're making.

Can you show me where I argued with anybody about wearing a white poppy, I haven't mentioned it at all so show me the post or take it back.

 

[anme]

I see no-one is prepared to say which wars they are actually remembering with their poppies. I'm going to assume it's mainly the first and second world wars. My next question is why the UK alone still makes such a big deal out of this. Other European countries have memorials and remembrance services, but I don't know of any where the individual public demonstration of remembrance is so strictly enforced (and much more so now than in the past). This is despite the fact that many European countries were much more significantly affected, especially by WW2, and many were occupied for years by hostile forces.

 

[Johnuk123]

I see no-one is prepared to say which wars they are actually remembering with their poppies. I'm going to assume it's mainly the first and second world wars. My next question is why the UK alone still makes such a big deal out of this. Other European countries have memorials and remembrance services, but I don't know of any where the individual public demonstration of remembrance is so strictly enforced (and much more so now than in the past). This is despite the fact that many European countries were much more significantly affected, especially by WW2, and many were occupied for years by hostile forces.

I will wear my red one to mainly remember the wars that are in recent memory - Afghanistan and Iraq as I have a good reason to do so

 

[Tetchytyke]

British soldiers haven't done anything so barbaric in...well, I don't know if they have.

If you give more than a passing glance at any country's history you'll see things as bad as what ISIS have done.

The history of the Belgian Congo- where the Anglo-Belgian rubber company chopped the hands and feet, and worse, off of children whose fathers didn't harvest enough rubber, is traumatic reading.

And in the second Boer War- a largely forgotten war, except when we talk about the Kop at football grounds- Lord Kitchener (yes, that Lord Kitchener) ordered the British Army to place107,000 people in concentration camps. Of those 107,000 people about a third died, primarily due to starvation after the Army refused to give them food.

Looking around Hamburg, especially the Nikolaikirche, where the Allied forces killed as many people in a week during Operation Gomorrah as the Germans did in the entire Blitz, is eye-opening. All sides in wars commit atrocities and I'm not always sure the symbolism of the red poppy really addresses this.

I normally wear a white poppy when I can find them. They're not always easy to find though.

That said, I normally donate to the British Legion and to SSAFA, I have seen first hand in my day job what brilliant work both organisations do for injured and wounded ex-servicemen, as well as ex-servicemen (and their families) who have fallen on hard times financially. They deserve all the money they raise.

 

[Lankyline]

So where does the British Legion money from the poppy appeal go?

It's to current and former servicemen and their families who need assistance. No bad thing, but it most certainly doesn't go to civilians.

True but what you have to remember is that the original idea was circa 1918/19 as we know times and intentions have changed, but the original idea wasn't British it was from an American lady.

 

[DarloRich]

I do not suggest that those specific individuals are particularly worthy of remembrance. How would you suggest that I separate out the good dead from the bad dead?

By not remembering any of them, ever?

Or by remembering them all and accepting that some of those were rotten apples?

So, this year I will buy a red poppy and remember only the glorious British Tommy and completely ignore the millions of German troops that died in WWI and WWII or the tens of millions of Russian troops and civilians.

you are a better man than me.

I simply don't waste any of my thoughts on IS types nor do I think that people who have committed such acts of depraved barbarity deserve a moments consideration from decent, civilised people.

In the same vein I would not seek to remember the death of Nazi concentration camp managers or SS Einsatzgruppen types from the second world war. These people deserve nothing but contempt and are, in my opinion, unworthy of the generosity of spirit you show towards them.

I have no problem at all in considering & remembering the majority of dead of other countries from past conflicts. I am sure few of them wanted to be there and their deaths were a big a waste of life as anyone else. I also have no problem in saying we should work to stop war and conflict, I just don't think, sadly, it is possible.

 

[AlterEgo]

True but what you have to remember is that the original idea was circa 1918/19 as we know times and intentions have changed, but the original idea wasn't British it was from an American lady.

The concept of remembrance has certainly changed over time.

 

[AM9]

I think I phrased my question badly. Maybe I should have written "which wars do you NOT remember?".

The Falklands war is certainly in living memory, but there are no surviving combatants from the First World War as far as I know, and we still remember that. I have never heard the Second Boer War mentioned with regard to remembrance days, even in my childhood when it was much less distant than the first world war is today.

It's interesting that you mention the Falklands war, but not the Gulf war (1991) or the Aden Emergency (1963-1967) or the Korean War (1950-1953) - all within living memory. And do you really remember the dead of the Norman conquest or the Wars of the Roses?

I'm just curious about what these remembrance customs are actually about.

Note: if you need a crib sheet for conflicts involving the UK, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_involving_the_United_Kingdom

If you read my earlier post you will see that I do not subscribe to the organised remembrance ethos and no I don't have or need a mental checklist of which wars I specifically rue over.
My answer post commented that with a list of of ancient (e.g. 1066), and much more modern events, (Iraq 2003-2009) was that the Falklands 'conflict' (as it seems to be known), was within living memory for most but was conspicuous in this thread.
I can't abide with the wierd concept of a 'glorious war' that seems to be part of the remembrance day theme. Some wars are entered into to protect the status quo, not necessarily a morally justifiable cause, - if contemporary accounts have any manner of truth in them, Churchill's intent at the end of WW2 was to get back to the UK controlling a third of the world as it's empire. That may not have been the original motive to declare war against the Axis powers, but it shows that the changes in the world weren't going to change anything in his grand plan.
As a comment to your question above, wars since WW2 seem to be more a reaction to situations that resulted form political errors made by the west. Sending forces to save the reputation of incompetant politicians and disastrous power strategies is definitely becoming the main causes of more and more modern conflicts. My take on a few:
NI 'troubles' - arising from the maintenance of an unfair society where votes were restricted to a citizen status that favoured half of society
'Falklands Conflict' - a penny pinching scrapping of a patrol boat (Endurance) that naively reawoke a long running territorial conflict between the UK and then aggressive and brutal dictatorship. The UK government decided to make it a union flag waving exercise
several middle-east wars - the age-old 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' and regime change by proxy has got us (and the US) deeper and deeper into a mess which has ended up looking to an uncommitted observer, like an anti-islam series of wars. No matter how much western governments claim that it isn't, convincing those that we have taken on remains almost impossible.
So in respect of my inner 'rememberences', they are to a degree shaped by the sort of background described above. It's unfortunate for the servicemen sent to do the dirty work as the politicians' cannon fodder, but still the governments (past and present) line up on Remembrance day, seeming to be proud of their achievements.

 

[backontrack]

Can you show me where I argued with anybody about wearing a white poppy, I haven't mentioned it at all so show me the post or take it back.

Your response to Baxenden Bank's first post.

 

[Steveman]

Your response to Baxenden Bank's first post.

I didn't respond to his first post.

 

[Harbornite]

If you give more than a passing glance at any country's history you'll see things as bad as what ISIS have done.

The history of the Belgian Congo- where the Anglo-Belgian rubber company chopped the hands and feet, and worse, off of children whose fathers didn't harvest enough rubber, is traumatic reading.

And in the second Boer War- a largely forgotten war, except when we talk about the Kop at football grounds- Lord Kitchener (yes, that Lord Kitchener) ordered the British Army to place107,000 people in concentration camps. Of those 107,000 people about a third died, primarily due to starvation after the Army refused to give them food.

Looking around Hamburg, especially the Nikolaikirche, where the Allied forces killed as many people in a week during Operation Gomorrah as the Germans did in the entire Blitz, is eye-opening. All sides in wars commit atrocities and I'm not always sure the symbolism of the red poppy really addresses this.

I normally wear a white poppy when I can find them. They're not always easy to find though.

That said, I normally donate to the British Legion and to SSAFA, I have seen first hand in my day job what brilliant work both organisations do for injured and wounded ex-servicemen, as well as ex-servicemen (and their families) who have fallen on hard times financially. They deserve all the money they raise.

There was also the Mau Mau rebellion of 1953, the British army's response has been criticized but they weren't as bad as the enemy in that instance and like the other incidents, it occurred in the past. It pretty much goes without saying that the modern British army would never commit genocide or mass killings and its soldiers won't be caught throwing men off buildings for being homosexual.

 

[backontrack]

I didn't respond to his first post.

OK, then the one you took offence at.

 

[Steveman]

OK, then the one you took offence at.

Rather than play footsie with me just show me the post where I argued about white poppies.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

White poppy to promote peace
Red poppy to remember the fallen in conflict which is the purpose of Remembrance Day, so obviously red poppy.
The white poppy was introduced by peaceniks who think that if one side stops hostilities everybody else will.

the white poppy is a Political statement - basedin misguided and delusional 'logic' ...
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It's not the act of wearing a poppy that is significant, it is the thought behind it. And many people seem to have forgotten its true meaning.

Those who have died in wars have done so for the freedoms we enjoy today. I think it is reasonable to expect that we choose honour them in whichever way we deem most appropriate. Colour of poppy is irrelevant, position of poppy is irrelevant. It is the act of remembrance that is truly important. It's all very true that many do not wish to wear poppies for a variety of reasons - they have the freedom to do so.

Do what you want in the next few weeks. Mark the remembrance events as you choose to do so.

this forum needs a like / love / have a cookie button for posts like this
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Red poppies are great, and I wear one myself.

Red poppies used as a way to glorify war and jingoism are a perversion of their proper use, and are awful. I have a problem with those wearers of red poppies who have problems with those that wear white poppies because they invariably turn out to be those who wear red poppies for the wrong reason.

If you care about remembering the dead, the way people do it is not high on the priority list.

regardlesso f the fact it is the wearers of white poppies who have chosen to bring (party)politics into the issue ?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Rather than play footsie with me just show me the post where I argued about white poppies.

So you took umbrage at someone arguing against someone who said white poppies were bad and meant you supported those who died in ISIS, and you still want to argue it has nothing to do with white poppies?

What is it with the staunchly right-wing and your obsession with manipulation and word games on this forum?

 

[AM9]

the white poppy is a Political statement - basedin misguided and delusional 'logic' ...

and a red poppy isn't?

 

[TheKnightWho]

the white poppy is a Political statement

This always tends to carry the implicit "that I disagree with". It's a bit like calling something ideological, as though your own diametrically opposed view somehow isn't.