No lighting at Three Bridges yesterday (19/10/2016).

[swt class 450]

Yesterday evening (or this morning as i was there at around 00:00) at Three Bridges there was no lighting at the station. No platform lights. No shelter lights. No station building lights. No platform building lights. You could barely see where you were going (i used the torch on my phone). The station was actually pitch black. It did not seem to be safe at all. Does anyone know what was going on and what caused this?

 

[Deepgreen]

Yesterday evening (or this morning as i was there at around 00:00) at Three Bridges there was no lighting at the station. No platform lights. No shelter lights. No station building lights. No platform building lights. You could barely see where you were going (i used the torch on my phone). The station was actually pitch black. It did not seem to be safe at all. Does anyone know what was going on and what caused this?

I assume it open to the public at the time (i.e. you were not there as visiting staff)? If so, I am very surprised that it had either not been closed or emergency lighting provided/already available.

Sounds extremely poor, with a high chance of falling on the track. Were there any staff around and if so, did they not offer any help or explanation?

 

[swt class 450]

I assume it open to the public at the time (i.e. you were not there as visiting staff)? If so, I am very surprised that it had either not been closed or emergency lighting provided/already available.

Sounds extremely poor, with a high chance of falling on the track. Were there any staff around and if so, did they not offer any help or explanation?

Yes it was still fully open to the public and trains were still stopping there (the trains were the brightest things around). I couldnt find any staff anywhere. None of the screens and announcements were working either so i had to look on my phone to find which platform my train was on. I certainly didnt feel safe and i wouldnt have used the station if i didnt have my torch on my phone. Other passengers were very confused as well. I am very surprised that it was left open.

 

[Devonman2014]

Yes it was still fully open to the public and trains were still stopping there (the trains were the brightest things around). I couldnt find any staff anywhere. None of the screens and announcements were working either so i had to look on my phone to find which platform my train was on. I certainly didnt feel safe and i wouldnt have used the station if i didnt have my torch on my phone. Other passengers were very confused as well. I am very surprised that it was left open.

Localised power cut in the area ?

Did local houses, businesses have lights on or were streetlights on outside the station ?

 

[swt class 450]

Localised power cut in the area ?

Did local houses, businesses have lights on or were streetlights on outside the station ?

No everything else near the station looked fine. The street lights / house lights / building lights / traffic lights / etc near the station all seemed to be working fine. It was just the entire station that had no lighting.

 

[broadgage]

Sounds like a local power cut to me.

Most railway stations are entirely dependant on the local electricity network, which is generally fairly reliable, but can and does fail.

A few major stations have backup generators, but this is not the norm for smaller stations.

I too find it surprising that most stations have no emergency lighting.

In third rail areas, the traction current could be used for this purpose at relatively little cost.
Another possibility would be to connect a VERY FEW essiential lights to the signalling power supply system. This is of modest capacity and can not supply large loads, but should IMO be considered.

Adding a load of 150 watts to the signaling power supply should be possible in many cases.
6 watt LED lamps give a surprisingly good light, 25 such lamps sensibly placed would permit of safe movement around most stations.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I'm genuinely surprised that drivers allowed passengers to board and alight with no lighting or staff to guide them. I've been on DOO trains that have refused to call at stations without adequate lighting before.

 

[pdeaves]

I am very surprised that it was left open.

Perhaps 'they' didn't know because no one had reported it yet.

 

[tsr]

It was a localised power cut. IT systems were also affected, including gateline computers, so it wasn't just lighting which had no (working) backup. As Three Bridges is staffed 24/7 I can only suggest that this incident may have just occurred and it is entirely possible that information had not yet reached everyone it needed to. As there is a regular overnight service it is not like the problem can be left until someone turns up a few hours later.

There is, of course, portable emergency lighting equipment available. It's actually quite good if it works properly. The other issue is with that: I've known the same type of emergency lights simply not to start up on occasions, for what I can really only describe as unknown mysterious reasons (batteries were all charged etc.).

If a train calls at a station with no lighting it is mandatory for it to wait until the platform is clear of passengers. Obviously drivers of DOO trains (with no platform staff to dispatch them) have no realistic way of being sure of this without walking down the platform, so usually they won't call as it takes so long. You also have to factor in whether the stock has porter switches to lock out each coach individually, if needed. If there is little ambient light then sometimes conductors will have to do so as part of their risk mitigation. On some platforms at Three Bridges, this may not be a problem.

If platform staff were present then a clear understanding may have been in the process of being reached with Control and the signaller about whether they could see enough to dispatch DOO trains, or calling the on call manager. Both of those things could be necessary actions which might involve being positioned away from passengers in one of the offices (of which there are several at that station).

 

[Bletchleyite]

At that time of night, surely better for the train to call and the driver to check each coach (assuming those buttons are indeed provided - I thought they were the norm in the SE).

 

[Antman]

I'm genuinely surprised that drivers allowed passengers to board and alight with no lighting or staff to guide them. I've been on DOO trains that have refused to call at stations without adequate lighting before.

I was on a train that stopped at Swanley one evening and it was in pitch darkness due to a local power cut, the guard was very good though and got out with a torch to ensure everybody got out of the station safely. I assume he must have informed the driver or he could have been left behind, driver closes doors via CCTV there.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I was on a train that stopped at Swanley one evening and it was in pitch darkness due to a local power cut, the guard was very good though and got out with a torch to ensure everybody got out of the station safely. I assume he must have informed the driver or he could have been left behind, driver closes doors via CCTV there.

If the guard was keyed into a guard's panel with their local door open then the driver might not be able to shut all doors anyway and get the interlock

 

[swt class 450]

Which stations do Southeastern Guards start operating the doors from?

 

[Antman]

Which stations do Southeastern Guards start operating the doors from?

On that particular line from Farningham Road towards Rochester or from Kemsing towards Ashford via Maidstone East.

 

[swt class 450]

On that particular line from Farningham Road towards Rochester or from Kemsing towards Ashford via Maidstone East.

Thanks. Without going too much off topic out of interest do you know what stations they start operating the doors from on the other SE lines as well?

With Three Bridges it did really surprise me that there were no staff around that i could see to assist passengers. I suppose like tsr says they were probably in their offices at the time sorting things out. How many staff work at Three Bridges at the time of night?

Also do all Guards carry torches with them?

 

[redbutton]

I'm genuinely surprised that drivers allowed passengers to board and alight with no lighting or staff to guide them. I've been on DOO trains that have refused to call at stations without adequate lighting before.

The overnight services from Victoria terminate at TBD, so there's not really an option not to call there.

Also do all Guards carry torches with them?

Yes, though the services in question are DOO. The driver should also have a torch as required equipment in his bag.

Train crew torches can show red, green, or white light as the situation requires.

 

[tsr]

The overnight services from Victoria terminate at TBD, so there's not really an option not to call there.

There's always an option to terminate at Gatwick and arrange taxis, or ticket acceptance on overnight Metrobus services.

Yes, though the services in question are DOO. The driver should also have a torch as required equipment in his bag.

Train crew torches can show red, green, or white light as the situation requires.

Not all trains at Three Bridges are DOO - though as this concerned a strike day, many would have been. You could maintain some semblance of a service with conductor operated Horsham stoppers on a normal day (as well as some of the peak Brighton services). Not to mention the fact that all of Southern's overnight Victoria - Gatwick / Three Bridges services have conductors.

 

[Deepgreen]

Perhaps 'they' didn't know because no one had reported it yet.

Surely, given that the station is manned to end of traffic, the instant that the power went off, those at the station would have known - no reporting needed. The first action, surely, would be to seize torches and investigate outside any offices the staff may have been in? For the OP not to have been able to find anyone around sounds very worrying.

 

[tsr]

Surely, given that the station is manned to end of traffic, the instant that the power went off, those at the station would have known - no reporting needed. The first action, surely, would be to seize torches and investigate outside any offices the staff may have been in? For the OP not to have been able to find anyone around sounds very worrying.

Sometimes there are only a couple of staff around at that time of night. It would be quite easy not to be able to spot them on one of 5x 12 coach platforms (not to mention offices and electrical cupboards etc.) if it's very dark, especially if you were concentrating where you walking rather than staring around looking for them. Add to that the fact that they're not going to go sprinting around to bow and scrape to every passenger when they'll need to be on the phone to a number of people at once, lug the emergency lighting around and start it up, check the fuse boxes...

One thing can be safely assumed, and that is that they were most certainly not ignoring the fact that a major railway interchange was plunged into pitch darkness...

 

[anme]

I'm genuinely surprised that drivers allowed passengers to board and alight with no lighting or staff to guide them. I've been on DOO trains that have refused to call at stations without adequate lighting before.

I used to catch a train from a small station on the edge of suburbia and open countryside. One cold, dark evening, there was a power cut to the whole area and all local lights were out - streetlights, houses, station, etc. It was really dark, in a way you rarely experience in the UK today.

I'm very happy to say that trains continued to stop at the station and I was able to return to civilisation.

I can't see how abandoning passengers on a pitch black station on a winter's night could possibly be considered safer than picking them up. And the trains themselves still had lights, of course, so boarding was in no way unsafe!

Edit: BTW, the station was unmanned in the evenings.

 

[swt class 450]

Ideally yes there should have been staff around helping people but i imagine that their first priority was to make phone calls and look at electrical cabinets to try to sort out the lighting. And at that time of night like tsr said i doubt that there are many people working at Three Bridges. Hopefully this will not be a regular occurance. I have never known of this to happen before.

 

[tsr]

Funnily enough it actually happened again tonight. Platform staff were in the process of placing emergency lights but power was restored very quickly.

 

[Class377/5]

Thanks. Without going too much off topic out of interest do you know what stations they start operating the doors from on the other SE lines as well?

With Three Bridges it did really surprise me that there were no staff around that i could see to assist passengers. I suppose like tsr says they were probably in their offices at the time sorting things out. How many staff work at Three Bridges at the time of night?

Also do all Guards carry torches with them?

There's only a few staff overnight but worth mentioning Thameslink services which call all night don't have guards.

Local power failures haven happened a few times recently affecting the signalling center too.

 

[Deepgreen]

Sometimes there are only a couple of staff around at that time of night. It would be quite easy not to be able to spot them on one of 5x 12 coach platforms (not to mention offices and electrical cupboards etc.) if it's very dark, especially if you were concentrating where you walking rather than staring around looking for them. Add to that the fact that they're not going to go sprinting around to bow and scrape to every passenger when they'll need to be on the phone to a number of people at once, lug the emergency lighting around and start it up, check the fuse boxes...

One thing can be safely assumed, and that is that they were most certainly not ignoring the fact that a major railway interchange was plunged into pitch darkness...

I won't assume anything, but the OP has strongly suggested that he and any other passengers were effectively left to their own devices. "Bow and scrape" - where did that come from? As far as the safety of passengers is concerned, from their point of view the lack of any lighting (a bare minimum of emergency fittings could and should be provided at every station) amounts to ignoring the issue, either corporately or locally. That is not to say that frantic efforts were not being made to sort matters out, but I wonder how that would play out in court if someone had fallen down stairs, onto the track, etc?
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Ideally yes there should have been staff around helping people but i imagine that their first priority was to make phone calls and look at electrical cabinets to try to sort out the lighting. And at that time of night like tsr said i doubt that there are many people working at Three Bridges. Hopefully this will not be a regular occurance. I have never known of this to happen before.

I would suggest that the first priority should be to set out some emergency lights, rather than report the issue. Accidents can happen (potentially life-changing ones at that) at unlit stations on an electrified railway in the time it takes to make the various calls, check the fuses etc., all of which can wait a few minutes until the site has been made safe (or less unsafe).

 

[Class377/5]

Putting out emergency lighting before reporting it isn't sensible at all. Especially as it took take some time. Think of it this way, let's say it takes five minutes to walk the omplete length of a platform so 5 platform station like Three Bridges is 50 mins just to walk the length of all platforms and that's assuming you could carry every light at once (you cannot). Oh and that also misses out putting lights in passages way etc so your already talking about nearer an hours work for two people and that's if you don't do any customer care.

Now add in trains where drivers expect to see a light to signal a station. Very easy to miss the station and fail to call in complete darkness.

 

[Deepgreen]

Putting out emergency lighting before reporting it isn't sensible at all. Especially as it took take some time. Think of it this way, let's say it takes five minutes to walk the omplete length of a platform so 5 platform station like Three Bridges is 50 mins just to walk the length of all platforms and that's assuming you could carry every light at once (you cannot). Oh and that also misses out putting lights in passages way etc so your already talking about nearer an hours work for two people and that's if you don't do any customer care.

Now add in trains where drivers expect to see a light to signal a station. Very easy to miss the station and fail to call in complete darkness.

I can see arguments on both sides, but, if I am at home and the power fails, the first thing I do is find a battery light, then worry about reporting it, and I also don't have the responsibility of public safety. If, while I am trying to report a power failure, someone falls onto the track in the darkness, or falls down the stairs, what then? I suppose the safe option is to close the station - very annoying at that time of night, but safe. Each case will be different, but it may be possible to 'meet' each train and guide people accordingly.

All this, of course, doesn't address the question of why no emergency lights are built in to the fixed systems at such stations. All London Underground stations (below and above ground) have these.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

There's only a few staff overnight but worth mentioning Thameslink services which call all night don't have guards.

Local power failures haven happened a few times recently affecting the signalling center too.

Does the signalling centre share the incoming feed with the station?

Putting out emergency lighting before reporting it isn't sensible at all. Especially as it took take some time. Think of it this way, let's say it takes five minutes to walk the omplete length of a platform so 5 platform station like Three Bridges is 50 mins just to walk the length of all platforms and that's assuming you could carry every light at once (you cannot). Oh and that also misses out putting lights in passages way etc so your already talking about nearer an hours work for two people and that's if you don't do any customer care.

Now add in trains where drivers expect to see a light to signal a station. Very easy to miss the station and fail to call in complete darkness.

Why aren't there emergency lights in every station that kick in the very moment the power fails?

 

[MrB]

There's only a few staff overnight but worth mentioning Thameslink services which call all night don't have guards.

Local power failures haven happened a few times recently affecting the signalling center too.

I assume the signalling centre has some kind of backup supply/battery system as a redundancy measure should something like this occur.

 

[Class377/5]

Does the signalling centre share the incoming feed with the station?

Some yes but limited usage. Ie signalling and GSM-R phones work but don't believe PCs etc do so no checking times etc or any service alterations via normal means in box I've worked Inn

Why aren't there emergency lights in every station that kick in the very moment the power fails?

Most stations are feed off the national grid. Providing back up generators isn't cheap and will require money whether it's used or not. Most UK stations use local power supply. There's only one expection I know off.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Most stations are feed off the national grid. Providing back up generators isn't cheap and will require money whether it's used or not. Most UK stations use local power supply. There's only one expection I know off.

Many offices have battery powered emergency lighting which will put some of the lights on at reduced intensity for a couple of hours. Generators are not required.