Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

[ChiefPlanner]

Time for a refresh on this - the draft WG budget for 2017 apparently includes a provision for £300,000 on more detailed study.

 

[Greenback]

What a waste of money!

 

[A0]

Time for a refresh on this - the draft WG budget for 2017 apparently includes a provision for £300,000 on more detailed study.

Oooh - let's play b*llsh*t bingo on what words or phrases we think will be in the "detailed study".

I'm going for "modal shift".

Incidentally, I'm with Greenback. It's a complete waste of money and does tend to show why government's of all levels and all persuasions need to be more accountable.

 

[rf_ioliver]

What a waste of money!

Except if they didn't do that someone would complain that they're not making a detailed study and not following procedures...<sigh>

t.

Ian

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What a waste of money!

That's because of the deal with Plaid, with Labour not having a clear majority.
All for local electoral gain.
All their efforts should be going into improving the next W&B franchise.

 

[70014IronDuke]

What a waste of money!

Agreed. On the positive side, i suppose £300,000 would do much good if it was put to proper use these days anyway - a few licks of paint on stations on the Heart of Wales line, perhaps?

Would it be enough to subsidise another unit for the line, at least a the Welsh end, for a few weeks, if one could be found?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let us get Adrian Shooter all excited by suggesting that the Class 230 units would be ideal motive power for this line....should it ever see the light of day again...

 

[6Gman]

What a waste of money!

Liked!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Agreed. On the positive side, i suppose £300,000 would do much good if it was put to proper use these days anyway - a few licks of paint on stations on the Heart of Wales line, perhaps?

Would it be enough to subsidise another unit for the line, at least a the Welsh end, for a few weeks, if one could be found?

£300K would certainly buy another unit for a year - or at lest some extra train services if resources could be found - no doubt plenty of contenders such as summer shuttles up the Conway Valley or down towards Tenby. A further study will only really end up with a call from the consultants for "more work" needed on options and route studies. You can imagine the frenzy for environmental studies for newts , soil samples , etc etc.

Alternatively , the money could be put into real customer benefits - staffing on stations , disability improvements , WiFi at a couple of Cardiff area stations and so on....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let us get Adrian Shooter all excited by suggesting that the Class 230 units would be ideal motive power for this line....should it ever see the light of day again...

By far the best solution would be a refurb or new build of "Manor" class engines - powered by either Welsh sourced bio-mass or "smokeless Welsh steam coal. Please do not mention class 230's ....

Only joking before people start raving.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What the scoffers in England have to get around is this is what the devolution settlement in Wales delivers with its PR system. The seetllement was given by a Labour a government in Warstminster with one of the biggest ever majorities Blairs in 1997. This Is the consequence of one T Blair supposedly the most popular English PM for decades.......

 

[Bald Rick]

What the scoffers in England have to get around is this is what the devolution settlement in Wales delivers with its PR system.

That doesn't make it right. Or an even remotely acceptable use of Welsh taxpayers cash. (Speaking as a man of Welsh heritage)

 

[edwin_m]

Westminster governments aren't exactly immune from expensive mistakes either. At least, unlike the Iraq war, this one isn't going to kill anybody.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If you want to rail against the Welsh Government wasting money than the on going dualling of the Head of the Valleys Road is the cuckoo in the nest project in Wales sucking the transport budget dry - promoted as some sort of economic magic bullet its anything but.

Its the poster project of the current European Funding round in Wales - which Wales (esp the Valleys) voted to leave as they couldn't see what it was doing for them.......

 

[Envoy]

If you want to rail against the Welsh Government wasting money than the on going dualling of the Head of the Valleys Road is the cuckoo in the nest project in Wales sucking the transport budget dry - promoted as some sort of economic magic bullet its anything but.

Its the poster project of the current European Funding round in Wales - which Wales (esp the Valleys) voted to leave as they couldn't see what it was doing for them.......

The Heads of the Valleys road has been very dangerous with many casualties. One of the major advantages about dualling this route is the fact that it will form an alternative east > west link across south Wales and thus take some traffic off the overloaded M4. Hopefully, all traffic between Swansea (& points west) and the Midlands, will use this route.

 

[Llanigraham]

The Heads of the Valleys road has been very dangerous with many casualties. One of the major advantages about dualling this route is the fact that it will form an alternative east > west link across south Wales and thus take some traffic off the overloaded M4. Hopefully, all traffic between Swansea (& points west) and the Midlands, will use this route.

Quite! As was stated when the dualling was first proposed, and is already proving to be correct, even with the road works still on-going.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's no such thing as a dangerous road just bad driving.

The Heavy Industry in the West Midlands and West Wales that the road was suppose to connect when first mooted has contracted and all but disappeared.

and given that its virtually dualled the whole way apart from a couple of short stretches that do have uphill extra lanes anyway and the traffic lights in Monmouth Town centre has there been any demonstrable economic regeneration effect caused by it?

We could have used the money and had the South Wales Metro in place already (or well on the way) which is a better candidate for helping the economy of the post industrial globalised world where agglomeration economics means the jobs are in Cardiff anyway but because the Coryton interchange fails every morning and the railway still uses Pacers getting there is problematic and holds Cardiff (and its surrounding area) back.

 

[Envoy]

There's no such thing as a dangerous road just bad driving.

The Heavy Industry in the West Midlands and West Wales that the road was suppose to connect when first mooted has contracted and all but disappeared.

and given that its virtually dualled the whole way apart from a couple of short stretches that do have uphill extra lanes anyway and the traffic lights in Monmouth Town centre has there been any demonstrable economic regeneration effect caused by it?

We could have used the money and had the South Wales Metro in place already (or well on the way) which is a better candidate for helping the economy of the post industrial globalised world where agglomeration economics means the jobs are in Cardiff anyway but because the Coryton interchange fails every morning and the railway still uses Pacers getting there is problematic and holds Cardiff (and its surrounding area) back.

Where you have roads with 2 way traffic (not divided), you have situations where people get frustrated and take risks in order to overtake. So, a divided highway removes those risks and makes driving less stressful. I note that North Wales Police have now set up a system where drivers can upload dash cam footage of reckless driving. I welcome this initiative.

The Coryton Interchange should have bee a fast way for traffic to switch between the A470 and the M4. Unfortunately, hotels and a supermarket were also allowed to be built off this interchange thus helping too create congestion with all those added traffic lights on the gyratory. Having still not learned that junctions on motorways are for getting traffic on/off to the wider region, the Welsh Government are now likely to allow Cardiff Council to build a business park & park & ride on the north side of J33 (Cardiff West) and thus create even worse jams than we have at present.

Regarding the Metro: clearly progress should have been made by now to getting the valley lines electrified in order that a fleet of modern suburban trains can be introduced. Unfortunately, we are still at the talking stage with a shortlist of possible operators drawn up. With no progress on even getting Cardiff to Swansea electrified, I really do wonder what hope there is of getting the local network done.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Where you have roads with 2 way traffic (not divided), you have situations where people get frustrated and take risks in order to overtake. So, a divided highway removes those risks and makes driving less stressful. I note that North Wales Police have now set up a system where drivers can upload dash cam footage of reckless driving. I welcome this initiative.

The Coryton Interchange should have bee a fast way for traffic to switch between the A470 and the M4. Unfortunately, hotels and a supermarket were also allowed to be built off this interchange thus helping too create congestion with all those added traffic lights on the gyratory. Having still not learned that junctions on motorways are for getting traffic on/off to the wider region, the Welsh Government are now likely to allow Cardiff Council to build a business park & park & ride on the north side of J33 (Cardiff West) and thus create even worse jams than we have at present.

Regarding the Metro: clearly progress should have been made by now to getting the valley lines electrified in order that a fleet of modern suburban trains can be introduced. Unfortunately, we are still at the talking stage with a shortlist of possible operators drawn up. With no progress on even getting Cardiff to Swansea electrified, I really do wonder what hope there is of getting the local network done.

Applying the divided highway thinking to all A roads in Wales? £££ Billions...

Coryton Interchange - you can either dig it up and start again whilst closing it to traffic for years or do the South Wales Metro.As Professor Cole told the North Cardiff Tory MP you can have the perfect road system only by destroying swathes of your constituency. Better access by road to the Rhondda - demolish Pontypridd town centre.

GWML shoudl have been wired in the 80's with Valleys lines early 90's were 30/40 years behind the curve.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Better access by road to the Rhondda - demolish Pontypridd town centre.

That's already been done...

t.

Ian

 

[CdBrux]

What the scoffers in England have to get around is this is what the devolution settlement in Wales delivers with its PR system. The seetllement was given by a Labour a government in Warstminster with one of the biggest ever majorities Blairs in 1997. This Is the consequence of one T Blair supposedly the most popular English PM for decades.......

Indeed, money is spent on what local people, through their politicians, deem priorities. If the local people don't like the way the money is spent then they should vote differently. As long as the Welsh government don't go bleating to Westminster for more money...

The only issue being if this type of thing leaves the UK as a whole worse off, then there is a case for UK government to intervene, for example should they decide to build the thing with all their transport money on a poor business case.

 

[najaB]

There's no such thing as a dangerous road just bad driving.

Agreed. However, good road design can make the consequences of bad driving less severe, with the added benefit of making the road more efficient for good drivers. Wins all around.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The money for reopening Carmarthen to Aberystwyth is a drop in the ocean compared to what's needed to bring Welsh roads up to spec

 

[Llanigraham]

Funny, but from comments made by English friends, and from my own observation, the state of Welsh roads far exceeds the poor condition now prevalent in England. I know of one county in the South West that is proposing to reclassify many single track country roads so that they don't have to maintain them.

 

[CardiffKid]

Funny, but from comments made by English friends, and from my own observation, the state of Welsh roads far exceeds the poor condition now prevalent in England. I know of one county in the South West that is proposing to reclassify many single track country roads so that they don't have to maintain them.

I think it's very simplistic and slightly insulting to class all roads in England/Wales the same.

All roads in England are...
All roads in Wales are...

Come on guys, we're better than this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The thread concerns an aspirational Welsh railway reopening, not an improvement to Welsh road systems.

 

[D1009]

The thread concerns an aspirational Welsh railway reopening, not an improvement to Welsh road systems.

I think the point being made is that there are more pressing needs in the development of Welsh transport infrastructure than the reopening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth railway line, however much we would like to see it.

 

[moggie]

I think the point being made is that there are more pressing needs in the development of Welsh transport infrastructure than the reopening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth railway line, however much we would like to see it.

Find a road forum and discuss it there then. It's still irrelevant to a rail forum.

 

[Rhydgaled]

what words or phrases we think will be in the "detailed study".

I'm going for "modal shift".

The suggested journey time for the rail link is 90mins, 10mins slower than driving. If the study can find a way of getting the rail journey down to 80mins then you might get a reasonable amount of modal shift. Otherwise it's probably pointless building the railway, just renumber the current T1 bus service as local routes 40 (services via Pencarreg) and 40b (services via Llanwnnenn) and put in a new Carmarthen-Aberystwyth TrawsCymru service avoiding Pencader (cutting the journey time) and bringing the overall bus frequency between Aberaeron and Carmarthen up to half-hourly. Oh, and have the TrawsCymru service operated using buses with extended legroom, unlike the current T1 fleet, and put on express trains in the new franchise for the onward journey from Carmarthen to Cardiff.

In my opinion, modal shift should be a very strong consideration when planning any transport investment (and where to put houses/shops/etc. too). Sadly the WAG and DfT don't seem to think like that (otherwise the second M4 around Newport would have been discarded long ago).

Agreed. On the positive side, i suppose £300,000 would do much good if it was put to proper use these days anyway - a few licks of paint on stations on the Heart of Wales line, perhaps?

Would it be enough to subsidise another unit for the line, at least a the Welsh end, for a few weeks, if one could be found?

£300k might cover the lease of a unit, but I doubt it would cover fuel, track access and staffing costs too.

All their efforts should be going into improving the next W&B franchise.

According to what some have written on this forum, the current ATW franchise was once supposed to include Caernarfon-Bangor reopenning, before somebody decided on 'no growth'. Thus, Caernarfon-Bangor must have a reasonably good case so I really hope it gets in the franchise, a much more acheivable project than Carmarthen-Aberystwyth I think.

Alternatively , the money could be put into real customer benefits - staffing on stations , disability improvements , WiFi at a couple of Cardiff area stations and so on....

We could really do with some real interchange facilities (fully-enclosed waiting rooms and, prefrably, decent toilets) at places like Whitland.

Regarding the Metro: clearly progress should have been made by now to getting the valley lines electrified in order that a fleet of modern suburban trains can be introduced. Unfortunately, we are still at the talking stage with a shortlist of possible operators drawn up. With no progress on even getting Cardiff to Swansea electrified, I really do wonder what hope there is of getting the local network done.

The listed building consent application for electrification* at Cardiff Central shows no wires for platforms 7 and 8 (not sure about platform 6), is that a hint that valleys electrification is sadly dead?

*unfortunately granted by Cardiff Council in July, the standard monsterous GWEP OHLE is proposed and I had hoped the council would press Network Rail to design something sympathetic as they have tried to do with Bath's Sydney gardens.

Applying the divided highway thinking to all A roads in Wales? £££ Billions...

Even if you do it just by re-painting the dashed white line in the middle of the road with a pair of solid ones?

GWML shoudl have been wired in the 80's with Valleys lines early 90's were 30/40 years behind the curve.

Agreed, the OHLE design would probably have been nicer than what is apparently (finally) coming to Cardiff platforms 0-4 too.

 

[CardiffKid]

The listed building consent application for electrification* at Cardiff Central shows no wires for platforms 7 and 8 (not sure about platform 6), is that a hint that valleys electrification is sadly dead?

*unfortunately granted by Cardiff Council in July, the standard monsterous GWEP OHLE is proposed and I had hoped the council would press Network Rail to design something sympathetic as they have tried to do with Bath's Sydney gardens.

Platforms 0,1,2,3 & 4 are to get wires.

Some markings and a fenced off area have appeared at the west end of platforms including 6 & 7 which I'm guessing is for the masts.

I'm not sure if it would be sensible to put up wires on platforms 6-8 at the moment (although installing masts on platform 8 before it opens would surely be sensible!

Before electrification gets to Cardiff Central a decision should be taken as to what the priority is next - Cardiff-Swansea or the Valley Lines. Both need to be done, but can't be done at the same time.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Before electrification gets to Cardiff Central a decision should be taken as to what the priority is next - Cardiff-Swansea or the Valley Lines. Both need to be done, but can't be done at the same time.

While they can't be done at the same time, I don't see how that affects the installation at Cardiff Central. The ValleyLines and Cardiff-Swansea projects both require electrification of the Cardiff-Bridgend section of the GWML (the Valleys need it because of the Maesteg-Cardiff service), and I would have thought (as a layman) that it is easier to do all the knitting for pointwork etc. for all platforms at Cardiff Central at once to avoid having to switch the OHLE on the main lines off in order to tie-in the wires for the ValleyLines platforms at a later date.