Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[plastictaffy]

The RMT have badly let down their members. The whole DOO debacle on Southern has been handled poorly by the union. As soon as it was mentioned, there should have been an all-out strike across their network. It would have taken only around a week to get GTR round the table to thrash out a (good) deal for Conductors.

GTR offered the 2 grand, and the RMT said that "safety wasn't for sale" at any price, and that members weren't to sign the new contract. The deadline for the 2 grand expired on the thursday, on friday morning the RMT advise members to sign the contract. They said they needed to seek legal advice. Really?? They would have known all along the conductors would have to sign it. This whole episode has really destroyed my faith in my trade union - with a regional organiser as crap as ours, we'll be deeply in it when my TOC try to get shot of conductors.

 

[JamesTT]

I think the problem is that when people repeatedly maintain that something which is happening thousands of times a day and has done for 30 plus years is "inherently unsafe" then surely any rational non-traindriving person is going to think that something does not make sense...?

The only logical solution if the "inherently unsafe" argument is correct would be to immediately recruit 1000,s of new guards and make a guard mandatory on every train without exception. Somehow I don't think this is going to happen. Do you?

statistically you are more likely to be involved in a pti incident involving a DOO train from what I understand. However it would also appear that the odds of this happening are still very very small. Before the subject of the aeroplane is brought up again I expect there was a lot more to it than there appears to be.

 

[plastictaffy]

Being as it's all private safety remains the first priority, because someone else is paying for it.

What crap. Hatfield was due to Railtrack being driven by profit. Today's TOC's are interested in profit - god forbid the shareholders go without their divvy. Lets look for a moment at the situation with GTR. 99 million profit, 43 million received in subsidies from Central Government, but 22 million paid out in dividends. But safety comes first........:roll:

 

[JamesTT]

The RMT have badly let down their members. The whole DOO debacle on Southern has been handled poorly by the union. As soon as it was mentioned, there should have been an all-out strike across their network. It would have taken only around a week to get GTR round the table to thrash out a (good) deal for Conductors.

GTR offered the 2 grand, and the RMT said that "safety wasn't for sale" at any price.

It will be interesting to see if ASLEF also take up the 'safety not for sale' banner as well. I will be very surprised if they don't. I also wouldn't be surprised if they negotiate a 32 hour week or less in exchange for some extension of DOO which would be similar to a payrise

 

[plastictaffy]

Oh, don't you worry yourself, you can guarantee ASLEF will sell us out for a payrise. ASLEF are interested only in their own grade - good luck to them, too. The RMT reps will roll over for Horton to give them a belly rub, while the ASLEF reps allow their members to stab their RMT colleagues in the back.

 

[FordFocus]

This thread is bordering on the absolute ridiculous now. It does seem like people who have never driven a train in their lives are trying to make out they know far far better than those who do the job day in day out.

Well said.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh, don't you worry yourself, you can guarantee ASLEF will sell us out for a payrise. ASLEF are interested only in their own grade - good luck to them, too. The RMT reps will roll over for Horton to give them a belly rub, while the ASLEF reps allow their members to stab their RMT colleagues in the back.

What makes you guarantee that considering that DOO(P) is in the contract? GTR won't be shelling out any extra to drivers who earn £60,000 a year on a 3 day week with regular firebreaks

 

[Antman]

This thread is bordering on the absolute ridiculous now. It does seem like people who have never driven a train in their lives are trying to make out they know far far better than those who do the job day in day out.

Nothing to do with certain people trying to silence the opposition by claiming that they don't know what they're talking about?

There is no getting away from the fact that DOO trains operate day in day out without incident.

What was it you were saying about ridiculous?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Shouldnt people in this thread be submitting evidence to the MPs Transport Committee on the safety (or otherwise) of DOO?

Maybe if someone lists the RAIB reports and what they said we can all send them in?

 

[Stow]

This thread is bordering on the absolute ridiculous now. It does seem like people who have never driven a train in their lives are trying to make out they know far far better than those who do the job day in day out.

In my experience of carrying out and managing skilled jobs, including a little bit of (carrying out) train driving, there are lots of people who have never done a particular job but who are far more knowledgeable about the role than those carrying it out.

Best examples I can give are RAIB and AAIB but sure there are plenty of others.

Everyone always thinks they know it all, until they move role and realise that they only know from their own experience, not the experience of 100's of others.

Note: Post not written specifically in relation to DOO but applies generically

 

[plastictaffy]

What makes you guarantee that considering that DOO(P) is in the contract? GTR won't be shelling out any extra to drivers who earn £60,000 a year on a 3 day week with regular firebreaks

If the shareholders shout loud enough and the kick back off the government is large enough, they will. The way Horton, Crowther and all the rest of the clowns are going on, I suspect there's a rather large bonus in it when they impose DOO.

Think about how much DOO will save. I have this conversation with my colleagues semi regularly. Imagine an average sized depot has say 80 guards, basing it on my earnings, 30k a year basic. That's 2.4 million saved per year. Now lets say that TOC has 400 guards altogether. If you can get rid of them, that's 12 million saved, per year. Now the franchise runs til 2021 - that's 60 million saved over the franchise lifetime. Now if you re-employ those Guards on a new contract paying 25 grand a year, no overtime, no increments, no ticket commission, you'll still save 2 million quid a year - again, over the franchise lifetime, that's 12 million quid......... That's 12 million to spend on sweetening the deal for the drivers, is it not? And don't try to tell me they won't take the money, because you know damn well they will!!

I do not want DOO any more then the next man, but with those sorts of figures, it's not hard to see why Horton and co want to introduce it - wouldn't you in their postion??

That takes me back to my original point - the RMT handled the whole campaign wrong. As soon as DOO reared it's head, a ballot for action should have been held, in conjunction with ASLEF rather than wait for GTR to gather a bit of momentum, with the backing of the incumbent Tory government. When DOO is imposed on those routes, we are all very much endangered species.

People keep saying that a dispute worked on ScotRail - that it did and that's great. But they didn't have the backing of Whitehall. Plus the minute DOO came up, the ballot was called and they were out, virtually overnight it appeared. Plus let's not forget Wee Jimmie Krankie who is girding her loins for another in/out referendum north of the border. If they want independence, it's not going to be a problem for our government, is it??

 

[thelem]

If I recall when I looked at the RAIB reports since 2010 there were 11 reports on trap and drag involving onboard dispatch of those 9 were DOO and 2 guards although a number of the DOO involved the tube. I didn't count those were there platform staff doing dispatch, probably should have they all involved DOO trains I think.

So about 2 incidents a year? That's a pretty good record in my book.

To put that into context, Network Rail has a station safety page at http://www.networkrail.co.uk/safety/stations/ with some more stats:
* Passengers step on/off trains 3 billion times per year
* About 1500 people per year are injured falling at a station
* 418 people were injured on escalators in a year

Yes, conductor dispatch is safer than DOO, but the additional risk is tiny. You could also reduce the risk of using escalators if you put an assistant at the bottom of each one or replaced them with lifts, but I don't see people suggesting that.

There are plenty of good reasons to have a second member of staff present. Door safety isn't one of them.

 

[physics34]

If the shareholders shout loud enough and the kick back off the government is large enough, they will. The way Horton, Crowther and all the rest of the clowns are going on, I suspect there's a rather large bonus in it when they impose DOO.

Think about how much DOO will save. I have this conversation with my colleagues semi regularly. Imagine an average sized depot has say 80 guards, basing it on my earnings, 30k a year basic. That's 2.4 million saved per year. Now lets say that TOC has 400 guards altogether. If you can get rid of them, that's 12 million saved, per year. Now the franchise runs til 2021 - that's 60 million saved over the franchise lifetime. Now if you re-employ those Guards on a new contract paying 25 grand a year, no overtime, no increments, no ticket commission, you'll still save 2 million quid a year - again, over the franchise lifetime, that's 12 million quid......... That's 12 million to spend on sweetening the deal for the drivers, is it not? And don't try to tell me they won't take the money, because you know damn well they will!!

I do not want DOO any more then the next man, but with those sorts of figures, it's not hard to see why Horton and co want to introduce it - wouldn't you in their postion??

That takes me back to my original point - the RMT handled the whole campaign wrong. As soon as DOO reared it's head, a ballot for action should have been held, in conjunction with ASLEF rather than wait for GTR to gather a bit of momentum, with the backing of the incumbent Tory government. When DOO is imposed on those routes, we are all very much endangered species.

People keep saying that a dispute worked on ScotRail - that it did and that's great. But they didn't have the backing of Whitehall. Plus the minute DOO came up, the ballot was called and they were out, virtually overnight it appeared. Plus let's not forget Wee Jimmie Krankie who is girding her loins for another in/out referendum north of the border. If they want independence, it's not going to be a problem for our government, is it??

there is a part of me which says that guards are overpaid on £30-32k. Chance of incident is rare but is still possible...but they still have to do repetitive work safely and thoughtfully.....but take away the door responsibility and admittedly you can see that a £32000 salary is way over the odds.

Thing is , what to do with the current crop of conductors...and can they employ new people on newer contracts with less pay? I know the buses do this.

 

[plastictaffy]

30k is a fair wage for what is, as you rightly point out, repetitive work requiring concentration. My job requires me to start incredibly early and finish sometimes very late - sometimes only an hour before the earliest starter books-on. I also work a 10 hour shift most days. Sometimes in that 10 hours I work 5 trains, others I work 8. (my route is only 2 hours end to end, some of the regulars know where I work and for whom) I've been a conductor now for three and a half year (not for the shysters at Southern, thank god) and in that three years, my presence at despatch has averted a child being run over after he fell between the train and platform and at least one other potentially nasty incident. Passengers like seeing us on trains - specially on the last train that terminates at 0203 on a Saturday morning - it makes them feel safe.

Safe is the operative word here. You say you think 30k is over the odds - however that 30k has saved at least one life. Put that way, does 30k sound too much??

If my 30k wage saved your child being run over because he/she fell down the gap or helped your grandmother on the train as she isn't too good on her feet, and reassured her she was in the right part of the train to reach her destination, would it still be too much?

As an aside, Virgin's Train Managers (glorified conductors) earn a shade less than 40k.

 

[FordFocus]

If the shareholders shout loud enough and the kick back off the government is large enough, they will. The way Horton, Crowther and all the rest of the clowns are going on, I suspect there's a rather large bonus in it when they impose DOO.

Think about how much DOO will save. I have this conversation with my colleagues semi regularly. Imagine an average sized depot has say 80 guards, basing it on my earnings, 30k a year basic. That's 2.4 million saved per year. Now lets say that TOC has 400 guards altogether. If you can get rid of them, that's 12 million saved, per year. Now the franchise runs til 2021 - that's 60 million saved over the franchise lifetime. Now if you re-employ those Guards on a new contract paying 25 grand a year, no overtime, no increments, no ticket commission, you'll still save 2 million quid a year - again, over the franchise lifetime, that's 12 million quid......... That's 12 million to spend on sweetening the deal for the drivers, is it not? And don't try to tell me they won't take the money, because you know damn well they will!!

I do not want DOO any more then the next man, but with those sorts of figures, it's not hard to see why Horton and co want to introduce it - wouldn't you in their postion??

That takes me back to my original point - the RMT handled the whole campaign wrong. As soon as DOO reared it's head, a ballot for action should have been held, in conjunction with ASLEF rather than wait for GTR to gather a bit of momentum, with the backing of the incumbent Tory government. When DOO is imposed on those routes, we are all very much endangered species.

People keep saying that a dispute worked on ScotRail - that it did and that's great. But they didn't have the backing of Whitehall. Plus the minute DOO came up, the ballot was called and they were out, virtually overnight it appeared. Plus let's not forget Wee Jimmie Krankie who is girding her loins for another in/out referendum north of the border. If they want independence, it's not going to be a problem for our government, is it??

Of course this is all about cost savings. GTR and the DfT don't want a second person onboard a train, I think that's been established many times in this thread.

If I paid more and more each year on a season ticket, I want to make sure I was getting value for money. Removing the second person onboard albeit a guard or OBS it doesn't give me value for money nor does it give me a discount on the ticket price.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nothing to do with certain people trying to silence the opposition by claiming that they don't know what they're talking about?

Equally, people who don't have the operational experience but travel on trains as passengers don't want to listen to the pitfalls of DOO operations and have no real answer for the 'What if?' scenarios that occur occasionally. Instead they go on the defence and claimed they are shouted down by members of train crew or turned to the line of "DOO trains have been here for 30 years". Some members want to throw out connections about unions been dinosaurs, lefties or flying the red flag for communism and Jeremy Corbyn... :roll:

Railway safety has changed since the first DOO trains out of St Pancras along with the huge increase in passenger numbers and overcrowding on stations.

There is no getting away from the fact that DOO trains operate day in day out without incident.

What was it you were saying about ridiculous?

Have you not read the posts with the RAIB with the incidents in reference to DOO(P), in particular the PTI incidents since 2011?

 

[physics34]

30k is a fair wage for what is, as you rightly point out, repetitive work requiring concentration. My job requires me to start incredibly early and finish sometimes very late - sometimes only an hour before the earliest starter books-on. I also work a 10 hour shift most days. Sometimes in that 10 hours I work 5 trains, others I work 8. (my route is only 2 hours end to end, some of the regulars know where I work and for whom) I've been a conductor now for three and a half year (not for the shysters at Southern, thank god) and in that three years, my presence at despatch has averted a child being run over after he fell between the train and platform and at least one other potentially nasty incident. Passengers like seeing us on trains - specially on the last train that terminates at 0203 on a Saturday morning - it makes them feel safe.

Safe is the operative word here. You say you think 30k is over the odds - however that 30k has saved at least one life. Put that way, does 30k sound too much??

If my 30k wage saved your child being run over because he/she fell down the gap or helped your grandmother on the train as she isn't too good on her feet, and reassured her she was in the right part of the train to reach her destination, would it still be too much?

As an aside, Virgin's Train Managers (glorified conductors) earn a shade less than 40k.

you can say that but then lollypop men/women get £14k and do a very important job too....air stewards get £22k and are trained heavier on safety than guards....platform staff get £18k and do a similar job to guards in that respect.

I agree saving lives shouldnt matter financially, but on an economies of scale level then they get too much.

..and like i say, take away the door operation and there is even less safety stuff to do. We have lost the DOO argument virtually, as its been accepted elsewhere, but we still need to guarantee a second person on trains.

 

[Dave1987]

Nothing to do with certain people trying to silence the opposition by claiming that they don't know what they're talking about?

There is no getting away from the fact that DOO trains operate day in day out without incident.

What was it you were saying about ridiculous?

Back in the early 90's there was a Boeing 767 that had an thrust reverser deploy in flight due to two short circuits happening at the same time. Boeing said it was a one in a million chance that it happened or would ever happen again, yet steps were put in place to prevent it happening because people lost their lives because of it. 767's had flown thousands of flights before this without it happening and the chances of it happening again were so remote that they could almost certainly have got away without doing anything but they spent lots and lots of money modifying the fleet to ensure it didn't happen again.

You are using statistics and you own experience as a passenger to try and tell actual train drivers they are wrong which is ridiculous.

 

[otomous]

Nothing to do with certain people trying to silence the opposition by claiming that they don't know what they're talking about?

There is no getting away from the fact that DOO trains operate day in day out without incident.

What was it you were saying about ridiculous?

All I've seen on this forum is people who actually work as drivers or guards explaining why the observations of those who don't might be mistaken. How is that silencing anyone?

Cars crash and hit pedestrians every day despite most journeys being safe. Doesn't stop us trying to improve road safety.

 

[JamesTT]

Back in the early 90's there was a Boeing 767 that had an thrust reverser deploy in flight due to two short circuits happening at the same time. Boeing said it was a one in a million chance that it happened or would ever happen again, yet steps were put in place to prevent it happening because people lost their lives because of it. 767's had flown thousands of flights before this without it happening and the chances of it happening again were so remote that they could almost certainly have got away without doing anything but they spent lots and lots of money modifying the fleet to ensure it didn't happen again.

You are using statistics and you own experience as a passenger to try and tell actual train drivers they are wrong which is ridiculous. At the end of the day it's all about money and perceived risk, in this case the accountants are winning.

Maybe I have taken the bait maybe you have but the airplane version might have also been about potential lost revenue. I will attempt to explain my theory which you will no doubt dismiss because I am proposing it

 

[Dave1987]

Maybe I have taken the bait maybe you have but the airplane version might have also been about potential lost revenue. I will attempt to explain my theory which you will no doubt dismiss because I am proposing it

James you have called drivers "bullies" simply because they have challenged your rhetoric and asked whether you would have the same view had you succeeded in applying to be a driver yourself. Therefore if I challenge you argument no doubt I will be branded a bully as well, so what is the point.

 

[BestWestern]

you can say that but then lollypop men/women get £14k and do a very important job too....air stewards get £22k and are trained heavier on safety than guards.

A comparison with lollipop ladies, that really is a new one! Is there a sillyness prize up for grabs?! I think we have a winner...

As for the airlines, it is well known that the pay is crap and has been for some time. The continuing suggestion of 'glamour' keeps the students queuing up for it all the same.

 

[JamesTT]

James you have called drivers "bullies" simply because they have challenged your rhetoric and asked whether you would have the same view had you succeeded in applying to be a driver yourself. Therefore if I challenge you argument no doubt I will be branded a bully as well, so what is the point.

Ok then lets start with the bully bit first shall we. Yourself and some of your colleagues in the grade have decided I am bitter because I didn't quite make the grade. Sorry this says more about you and others than me. To clear things up I was extremely disappointed to fall at the last hurdle but I am not bitter.

The airplane argument is flawed because people have a greater fear of flying than they do of travelling by train. Tell people they might get trapped in a train door as it leaves the platform and dragged to a serious injury or death. Most people will say "I wouldn't get myself in that situation" Tell people there is a potential fault with an aeroplane, people will be forming an orderly queue for the airline that uses a different plane. That would equal lost revenue etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All I've seen on this forum is people who actually work as drivers or guards explaining why the observations of those who don't might be mistaken. How is that silencing anyone?

Cars crash and hit pedestrians every day despite most journeys being safe. Doesn't stop us trying to improve road safety.

Why is DOO(P) still a thing (to use the youth venacular) if it is still such a terrible thing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

you can say that but then lollypop men/women get £14k and do a very important job too....air stewards get £22k and are trained heavier on safety than guards....platform staff get £18k and do a similar job to guards in that respect.

I agree saving lives shouldnt matter financially, but on an economies of scale level then they get too much.

..and like i say, take away the door operation and there is even less safety stuff to do. We have lost the DOO argument virtually, as its been accepted elsewhere, but we still need to guarantee a second person on trains.

I have been pilloried for saying this but I will say it again. Mcnulty basically said conductors and platform staff are commercial unviable. The report came out in 2011 so there has been 5 years for conductors at least to prove their commercial viability. But instead of doing so they have shaken their fists until this dispute came up. It is a shame we are in this situation but the safety argument isn't enough to the money folk. The argument would be much easier to win if safety and increased revenue could be combined

 

[BestWestern]

I have been pilloried for saying this but I will say it again. Mcnulty basically said conductors and platform staff are commercial unviable. The report came out in 2011 so there has been 5 years for conductors at least to prove their commercial viability. But instead of doing so they have shaken their fists until this dispute came up. It is a shame we are in this situation but the safety argument isn't enough to the money folk. The argument would be much easier to win if safety and increased revenue could be combined

You keep returning to this rather bizarre argument that Guards have failed to 'prove' their worth. And you will keep on getting the same response. The government do not want a measure of what a Guard is worth, they just want them off the payroll. This has NOTHING to do with the safety issues, the customer service issues or the revenue. It is ONLY to do with saving money. Please, please take a moment to absorb this, the repetiton is becoming tedious. At no time are or were the DfT going to abandon their plans because somebody suddenly noticed that the takings were up. They just want the Guards gone. There is nothing else to it, it really is that simple.

 

[JamesTT]

You keep returning to this rather bizarre argument that Guards have failed to 'prove' their worth. And you will keep on getting the same response. The government do not want a measure of what a Guard is worth, they just want them off the payroll. This has NOTHING to do with the safety issues, the customer service issues or the revenue. It is ONLY to do with saving money. Please, please take a moment to absorb this, the repetiton is becoming tedious. At no time are or were the DfT going to abandon their plans because somebody suddenly noticed that the takings were up. They just want the Guards gone. There is nothing else to it, it really is that simple.

Are you seriously saying that if the union could have said each guard takes X% of their salary in revenue. That reports from passengers say that they provide an excellent service plus the safety aspect. The DFT would be so adamant in extending DOO

 

[otomous]

Ok then lets start with the bully bit first shall we. Yourself and some of your colleagues in the grade have decided I am bitter because I didn't quite make the grade. Sorry this says more about you and others than me. To clear things up I was extremely disappointed to fall at the last hurdle but I am not bitter.

The airplane argument is flawed because people have a greater fear of flying than they do of travelling by train. Tell people they might get trapped in a train door as it leaves the platform and dragged to a serious injury or death. Most people will say "I wouldn't get myself in that situation" Tell people there is a potential fault with an aeroplane, people will be forming an orderly queue for the airline that uses a different plane. That would equal lost revenue etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why is DOO(P) still a thing (to use the youth venacular) if it is still such a terrible thing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I have been pilloried for saying this but I will say it again. Mcnulty basically said conductors and platform staff are commercial unviable. The report came out in 2011 so there has been 5 years for conductors at least to prove their commercial viability. But instead of doing so they have shaken their fists until this dispute came up. It is a shame we are in this situation but the safety argument isn't enough to the money folk. The argument would be much easier to win if safety and increased revenue could be combined

Perhaps McNulty was wrong...maybe passengers might not consider that train crew should prove their commercial viability but provide a service. The railway is a part of public infrastructure, even if British governments try to run it as a business. Why don't we de-staff some other public services - education, health, social services, etc, to try to make them more "commercially viable"?

 

[JamesTT]

Oh, don't you worry yourself, you can guarantee ASLEF will sell us out for a payrise. ASLEF are interested only in their own grade - good luck to them, too. The RMT reps will roll over for Horton to give them a belly rub, while the ASLEF reps allow their members to stab their RMT colleagues in the back.

And you also konow they will shut the doors and pull away with folk in the despatch corridor
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps McNulty was wrong...maybe passengers might not consider that train crew should prove their commercial viability but provide a service. The railway is a part of public infrastructure, even if British governments try to run it as a business. Why don't we de-staff some other public services - education, health, social services, etc, to try to make them more "commercially viable"?

Seriously please explain how the services you have listed could be destaffed

 

[otomous]

And you also konow they will shut the doors and pull away with folk in the despatch corridor
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Seriously please explain how the services you have listed could be destaffed

Er, it's actually very easy. Bigger classes. Fewer subjects. Double up on jobs. Clean the school less often. Stop school meals. Scrap lollipop ladies. Fewer doctors or social workers to population. Fewer nurses per shift. Fewer operations. Longer waiting lists. But definitely not desireable.

 

[JamesTT]

Let me try a different angle you are a passenger you have 3 choices of system

a/ A belligerent person with an attitude problem sits in the rear cab and adds an extra level of safety when a train leaves the platform and can assist in an emergency

b/ A customer focussed person walks up and down the train providing information selling tickets, making sure people are not acting like morons but they are not involved in the despatch process. which does add a level of risk

c/A customer focussed person, who is happy to help passengers in anyway they can. Sell tickets provide information make sure people are not being numpties. Plus they are able to assist in an emergency and despatch trains

I know which I would chose

 

[otomous]

Let me try a different angle you are a passenger you have 3 choices of system

a/ A belligerent person with an attitude problem sits in the rear cab and adds an extra level of safety when a train leaves the platform and can assist in an emergency

b/ A customer focussed person walks up and down the train providing information selling tickets, making sure people are not acting like morons but they are not involved in the despatch process. which does add a level of risk

c/A customer focussed person, who is happy to help passengers in anyway they can. Sell tickets provide information make sure people are not being numpties. Plus they are able to assist in an emergency and despatch trains

I know which I would chose

But you're not being offered that choice. You MAY get b if personnel are available. Until 2021 anyway.

 

[NSEFAN]

Someone posted this link on WNXX. Whilst assistance may not necessarily be given by a train guard, perhaps GTR will have to maintain a particular level of staffing after all?

Mystery traveller experiment reveals how driver only trains and unstaffed stations could be illegal under the Equality Act 2010

Britain’s biggest pensioner organisation, the National Pensioners Convention (NPC) has warned that driver only trains that stop at unstaffed stations will be committing an offence under the Equality Act 2010, following the findings of a “mystery traveller” experiment carried out in August this year.

As part of the experiment backed by the NPC, three Persons of Restricted Mobility (PRM) on one day took a series of train journeys on Southern Rail from East Croydon to Chichester and back again via a different route to test the practicalities of travel. The “mystery travellers” included a wheelchair user, a blind passenger and a pensioner.

In order to minimise the effect on other passengers, the journeys were carried out at off-peak times, and as far as possible sought to test rolling stock (Electrostars) and stations which would be affected by Driver Only Operations (DOO). The group also made all reasonable adjustments such as arriving in good time and making early contact with staff.

Their findings revealed:
* The need for on board Passenger Information Systems to be both visual and audible. On at least one journey, the audio message was not working. This placed the blind passenger at a disadvantage
* The use of Class 313 trains built in 1976-77 which had no toilet facilities on board; a particular concern to older travellers
* The absence of a ramp at least at one station (Fishbourne), despite the platform having been widened to accommodate wheelchair users
* Numerous occasions where ramps were incorrectly deployed without positioning lugs to properly secure them in place
* Lack of platform staff, and a reliance on guards to assist travellers with restricted mobility
* An over-reliance on PRM booking ahead, which is often unreliable and unrealistic in a real-life journey scenario
* Poorly sited Help Points on stations, unhelpful operators and a Call Centre situated outside the UK where it is unreasonable to expect operators to know why stations are unstaffed
* Some excellent examples of well-trained drivers, guards and Care Team staff who were able to assist, without whom the journeys would not have been possible

 

[philthetube]

you can say that but then lollypop men/women get £14k and do a very important job too

14k for working 08.30-0900 and 15.30-1600 Monday to Friday wit all school hols off, sign me up.