Northern Rail's really taken the buiscuit now!!

[Chilled Phill]

Because I really am in no mood to repeat myself again, I've decided to copy and paste an e-mail to sent to Northern Rail about the issue. Hope nobody minds.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I'm writing to you tonight to tell you of my fury and disgust of the level myself an fellow passengers were treated on today's (Tuesday, December 16th 2008) 18:08 service from Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe. First, the train didn't even leave until twenty past six. Now, one thing I've noticed on other Train Operating Companies services is that the conductor explains why he's stopping for a prolonged period of time, last time I checked twelve minutes sitting at Piccadilly is an unusually long wait of train and one would certainly expect the conductor to at least tell passengers that he's in the process of finding out why the train is delayed. For all we knew, the train could have broken down; their could've been an incident further up the line - if I'm honest, the possibilities are endless.

Believe it or not, I'm only just getting started on this incident, within the train it was completely cramped with very little space available. Some passengers, I might add, were also in the process of complaining about the state of this service as well. Considering the fact that the Alderley Edge train departs quarter of an hour earlier and calls at exactly the same stations, would it really hurt if one decides at cancel the Alderley Edge trains during the rush hour period and instead run the Crewe service with two Class 323s coupled together; making it six carriages worth of seating as opposed to the usual three. I believe it should be six up to up to Alderley Edge to make further seats available for passengers for the Greater Manchester Stations and the fact that the rear unit will be uncoupled at Alderley Edge will mean that said unit will be able to run the rest of the current timetable services it is due to run.

I am aware that your train planners have been hard at work since Virgin Trains have been sending more London bound Pendolinos down the Crewe-Manchester line, but on paper I can't see anything wrong with my suggestion. Anyway, I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Any further suggestions and comments on my idea would be helpful, particularly from Mintona as I know he uses the same line I do.

 

[westcoaster]

you say cancel one train and double up the next, defeats the point, because the passengers from the first train will get on the second so there is no increase in seats, but a less freaquent service.

 

[Chilled Phill]

Fair point.

But then there will be more space for the passengers, surely?

 

[P156KWJ]

no, exactly the same amount of space. It's like cancelling 2 trains and combining the third one in to a 9-car set, still the same number of people... same number of seats

 

[Chilled Phill]

no, exactly the same amount of space. It's like cancelling 2 trains and combining the third one in to a 9-car set, still the same number of people... same number of seats

Ah, but your assuming that both trains have exactly the same amount of people on it. I guess it all depends on how many people take the earlier train, but at least I've had a go at finding a solution to the problem rather than just complaining.

Not that I'm moaning at you guys, as I asked in my first posts for comments...

 

[westcoaster]

it seems there was alot of delays at pic today so you might of been waiting for a member of train crew from a delayed service, thats why you were given no infomation.

 

[Chilled Phill]

it seems there was alot of delays at pic today so you might of been waiting for a member of train crew from a delayed service, thats why you were given no infomation.

Delays at Piccadilly, I wonder why? *Points to Virgin Trains and the wet weather*

Cheers for that, although the driver was present as I saw him go into the cab, so what's to say he couldn't of filled his place in explaining why we hadn't set off yet...?

 

[theblackwatch]

You might find the Alderley Edge train is actually busier - this is highly likely as your train was nearer the tail end of the peak than that.

If you get so furious at a train which is 12 minutes late, I'd be interested to see how you'd cope with a delay of several hours, which I've encountered on numerous journeys!

 

[MCR247]

Yes. I mean I've had a delay when i was on the 1200 GNER Edinburgh-LKX. We left Edinburgh, but about 10mins into the journey we stopped for 20mins. They annonced it was becasuse a voyager in front caught fire:roll::roll::roll:.
We had to go back into Edinburgh. Then the train formed the 1400 so it got really busy. I was going to Grantham, but the 1400 wasnt scheduled to stop! So then we asked the guard. He said get off at Newark Northgate and US pay for a Taxi.:mad: :mad:

 

[Chilled Phill]

You might find the Alderley Edge train is actually busier - this is highly likely as your train was nearer the tail end of the peak than that.

If you get so furious at a train which is 12 minutes late, I'd be interested to see how you'd cope with a delay of several hours, which I've encountered on numerous journeys!

I see. Although, I might add I wasn't furious with the fact we were 12 minutes late - it was because nobody was told why we were late.

We'll see on the second part, I think I would be calmer if I was kept in the know. Perhaps this is just down to my personality, but I just hate being kept "in the dark", so to speak.

I think it's probably because this was like my first incident in a while as well as the fact I tried to stand up for Northern when a majority of the carriage was fed up of the TOC pointing out that perhaps Northern didn't have any extra units at the time and got "I don't cares" and flawed arguments such as "why do they run lunchtime services then?", :roll: so I guess I got frustrated that trying to defend them wasn't worth bothering...and in the end I agreed with them that this service should be looked into...

Putting it into perspective, after reading MCR247's case, at least my station gets a service more frequently than others so I guess I should count myself lucky. But still, I do think the aforementioned service should get some extra carriages one way or another...

 

[glynn80]

Ah, but your assuming that both trains have exactly the same amount of people on it. I guess it all depends on how many people take the earlier train, but at least I've had a go at finding a solution to the problem rather than just complaining.

Not that I'm moaning at you guys, as I asked in my first posts for comments...

Looking at this situation logically:

Lets say a 323 has 300 seats.

Service 1 to Alderley Edge= 1x323, therefore has 300 seats
Service 2 to Crewe= 1x323, therefore also has 300 seats
Total: 600 seats

If we replaced Service 1 and 2 with

Service 3 to Crewe= 2x323, therefore has 600 seats
Total 600 seats

Both services would have 600 seats on them, regardless of whether they are coupled or not. The only thing coupling them together on a service (and then decoupling one unit at Alderley Edge) would do would be to delay the service while the decoupling takes place, increase Northern Rail's costs as they would have to send a shunter down to Alderley Edge to decouple the train and also annoy the passengers on Service 1 even more as there service is delayed by 15 minutes (running in the slot of Service 2).

 

[Chilled Phill]

Looking at this situation logically:

Lets say a 323 has 300 seats.

Service 1 to Alderley Edge= 1x323, therefore has 300 seats
Service 2 to Crewe= 1x323, therefore also has 300 seats
Total: 600 seats

If we replaced Service 1 and 2 with

Service 3 to Crewe= 2x323, therefore has 600 seats
Total 600 seats

Both services would have 600 seats on them, regardless of whether they are coupled or not. The only thing coupling them together on a service (and then decoupling one unit at Alderley Edge) would do would be to delay the service while the decoupling takes place, increase Northern Rail's costs as they would have to send a shunter down to Alderley Edge to decouple the train and also annoy the passengers on Service 1 even more as there service is delayed by 15 minutes (running in the slot of Service 2).

Seriously? Can't the rear 323 run into one of the Alderley sidings under it's own power? There's a TPE service from Manchester to Blackpool/Glasgow and that is two 185s and that spits at Preston and that doesn't require a shunter so why should Northern...?

Alternatively, because 323s run services between Alderley and Piccadilly anyway, what's to stop the 323x2 consist stopping on the North bound platform at Alderley and then rejoining the southbound line just south of the station? The rear unit would sit at Alderley Edge ready for it's next service.

Although, as I'm writing that I've already found flaws in that idea (first, it's on the way of an inbound Pendolino and then if it's on the Southbound line it'll be in the way of the 18:30 Picc-Cardiff Central service), oh well at least I'm trying to find ideas and not complaining as much now and also starting to appreciate train planners' jobs...

 

[spoony]

You might find the Alderley Edge train is actually busier - this is highly likely as your train was nearer the tail end of the peak than that.

If you get so furious at a train which is 12 minutes late, I'd be interested to see how you'd cope with a delay of several hours, which I've encountered on numerous journeys!

That was my initial thought too

 

[glynn80]

Seriously? Can't the rear 323 run into one of the Alderley sidings under it's own power? There's a TPE service from Manchester to Blackpool/Glasgow and that is two 185s and that spits at Preston and that doesn't require a shunter so why should Northern...?

Alternatively, because 323s run services between Alderley and Piccadilly anyway, what's to stop the 323x2 consist stopping on the North bound platform at Alderley and then rejoining the southbound line just south of the station? The rear unit would sit at Alderley Edge ready for it's next service.

Although, as I'm writing that I've already found flaws in that idea (first, it's on the way of an inbound Pendolino and then if it's on the Southbound line it'll be in the way of the 18:30 Picc-Cardiff Central service), oh well at least I'm trying to find ideas and not complaining as much now and also starting to appreciate train planners' jobs...

I didn't think that Northern drivers had negotiated with management on issues such as drivers detaching/attaching units at stations such as Alderley Edge. Usually if extra duties are to be carried out by drivers there is a long and arduous union procedure to go through. That is unlikely to be implemented in the near future and thus I believe a shunter would be needed in the interim.

Also I don't understand what you mean by couldn't the unit just run into the sidings at Alderley Edge, surely then it can't carry on to Crewe as you proposed? (Although I'm not too sure of the set up at Alderley Edge).

 

[Darandio]

12 minutes isn't all that bad as many people have already said, even if you are kept in the dark, sometimes the train crew don't actually know, take this one for example:-

Cannot remember the exact times but it was a Saturday because there were football supporters on and two conductors. The train from Saltburn to Darlington came in around 4 down and was due to turn around back to Saltburn within around 10 minutes for a 13:30ish departure (I will use that time just to calculate the wait), leaving only 6 minutes for the turnaround. Not a problem though. Everyone got on the train and then time passed. 13:35, nothing had yet happened. The conductor from the back, came to the front to talk to the second conductor who was still stood behind the drivers door and I heard one of them say "It's probably a flyer" which would be a NXEC, generally an HST going by on the fast lines. Both conductors return to the rear of the train then nothing happens until 13:51, 21 minutes after departure time when an announcement is made to say that this service has been cancelled due to a technical problem, everyone should alight the train and go to platform 4 for the next service to Saltburn which comes from Bishop Auckland.

The point is, I probably got on that train at 13:25 and sat there until 13:51, 26 minutes on my watch, without a word on what was going on, it seems not even the staff knew initially what was happening. To this day, I still have no idea what happened, the engine was running, the driver remained in the cab and more unusually, around 30-40 minutes later the same unit actually ran the next service as a replacement for the one in platform 2!

 

[spoony]

12 minutes isn't all that bad as many people have already said, even if you are kept in the dark, sometimes the train crew don't actually know, take this one for example:-

Cannot remember the exact times but it was a Saturday because there were football supporters on and two conductors. The train from Saltburn to Darlington came in around 4 down and was due to turn around back to Saltburn within around 10 minutes for a 13:30ish departure (I will use that time just to calculate the wait), leaving only 6 minutes for the turnaround. Not a problem though. Everyone got on the train and then time passed. 13:35, nothing had yet happened. The conductor from the back, came to the front to talk to the second conductor who was still stood behind the drivers door and I heard one of them say "It's probably a flyer" which would be a NXEC, generally an HST going by on the fast lines. Both conductors return to the rear of the train then nothing happens until 13:51, 21 minutes after departure time when an announcement is made to say that this service has been cancelled due to a technical problem, everyone should alight the train and go to platform 4 for the next service to Saltburn which comes from Bishop Auckland.

The point is, I probably got on that train at 13:25 and sat there until 13:51, 26 minutes on my watch, without a word on what was going on, it seems not even the staff knew initially what was happening. To this day, I still have no idea what happened, the engine was running, the driver remained in the cab and more unusually, around 30-40 minutes later the same unit actually ran the next service as a replacement for the one in platform 2!

Reminds me of a football special I got back from Carlisle to Sunderland. Took four hours due to all sorts of naughty stuff going on:roll:

 

[Chilled Phill]

I didn't think that Northern drivers had negotiated with management on issues such as drivers detaching/attaching units at stations such as Alderley Edge. Usually if extra duties are to be carried out by drivers there is a long and arduous union procedure to go through. That is unlikely to be implemented in the near future and thus I believe a shunter would be needed in the interim.

Also I don't understand what you mean by couldn't the unit just run into the sidings at Alderley Edge, surely then it can't carry on to Crewe as you proposed? (Although I'm not too sure of the set up at Alderley Edge).

Ah, I see where your coming from there, my apologies.

The current set up at Alderley Edge, iirc, is that there are around 6 trains calling at the station each hour: 2 bound for Crewe, 1 terminates at Alderley and three trains for Manchester. The station has two through platforms and to the south of the station there are two sidings, one of which is currently unavailable due to a recent derailment, for trains terminating at the station to get out the way of trains passing through the station - Hope that helps.

My point was that the 6 car unit couldn't carry on at Crewe or else the service from Alderley - Piccadilly won't be available and I based the idea around causing as little disruption from the current timetable as possible, considering mine involves cancelling a rush hour service...

Still, I'm young and learning the ways of the railways so the term "give me some slack" I would politely request to some members.

Oh and 12 minutes feels very long when your in a cramped space, doesn't it?

 

[Royston Vasey]

A 12 minute delay and a packed train at rush hour... welcome to Network Southeast my friend!

 

[Jim]

12 minutes isn't all that bad as many people have already said, even if you are kept in the dark, sometimes the train crew don't actually know, take this one for example:-

Point well made, sometimes us staff don't even know whats happening, and sometimes the pax find out before you!

 

[Mintona]

To be fair, all trains leaving Manchester towards Crewe (and probably anywhere) between 1630 and 1830 are full and standing at least as far as Wilmslow. The "Alderley Edge" train before is now also a Crewe train in the new timetable, departing Manchester Piccadilly at 1738 and calling at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Cheadle Hulme, Handforth, Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Sandbach and Crewe. Today, due to lack of traincrew, this train was unfortunately cancelled. I don't know whether this was driver or conductor, but it did effectively mean 2 train loads of 323 passengers were forced onto one 323, the delayed 1808 which left 11 minutes late.

What would be great would be if all trains were doubled on on peak services, but it's not going to happen, there is nothing like enough rolling stock. Another solution is to extend the length of each train, something which is much more likely up this way, quite possibly in the form of 321s.

I apologise that our service did not meet your demand today. Hopefully when the traincrew vacancies at Manchester Piccadilly are filled, this sort of thing won't happen anymore.

By the way, I don't know how far you travel on this service, but I dispatched the 1808 (1837 from Wilmslow) tonight, and will be all week. If you get off at Wilmslow, come and say hi!

 

[Chilled Phill]

To be fair, all trains leaving Manchester towards Crewe (and probably anywhere) between 1630 and 1830 are full and standing at least as far as Wilmslow. The "Alderley Edge" train before is now also a Crewe train in the new timetable, departing Manchester Piccadilly at 1738 and calling at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Cheadle Hulme, Handforth, Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Sandbach and Crewe. Today, due to lack of traincrew, this train was unfortunately cancelled. I don't know whether this was driver or conductor, but it did effectively mean 2 train loads of 323 passengers were forced onto one 323, the delayed 1808 which left 11 minutes late.

What would be great would be if all trains were doubled on on peak services, but it's not going to happen, there is nothing like enough rolling stock. Another solution is to extend the length of each train, something which is much more likely up this way, quite possibly in the form of 321s.

I apologise that our service did not meet your demand today. Hopefully when the traincrew vacancies at Manchester Piccadilly are filled, this sort of thing won't happen anymore.

By the way, I don't know how far you travel on this service, but I dispatched the 1808 (1837 from Wilmslow) tonight, and will be all week. If you get off at Wilmslow, come and say hi!

Oh no, I get off further up the line than Wilmslow so I'll have to wave from the window.

All in all Mintona, I think my complaint seems a little negligible from other situations brought forward by other RailUK members so I feel a little silly now feeling all angry about it. I did actually make that point to some of the "rebel passengers" that Northern have no 323s available to double up as well as the fact that no other unit is authorised to double up with a 323 other than another member of the same class. The gentleman opposite me just said that he didn't care and that "they should make more units available" and the lady opposite me presented the argument of having trains available for lunchtimes (apparently, a seven car train was used at Piccadilly that day... ) although that argument seems a little flawed: just because there aren't as many passengers getting on at Lunchtime than there is at rush hour doesn't mean they should be cancelled, besides how are the people of South Cheshire supposed to get home by rail during the day? :roll:

*Sigh* I used to love my rush hour train, the 17:10 Deansgate - Crewe, as that stopped in hardly any stations (Manchester O. Road, Picc, Stockport, Cheadle, Wilmslow, Alderley, Sandbach and Crewe) as when we got through Cheadle, there was hardly anybody else on the train. Mind if I ask how the Crewe train leaving Picc at 17:38 looks at Wilmslow, Mintona?

 

[Mintona]

The 1738 - that's my 1802. I will look out for it tonight, see how many are on it (if it isn't cancelled again :roll

 

[driver9000]

Regarding the detaching of a 323 in Alderley Edge platforms, a thought occurs - is Alderley Edge a permissive station? If its not then uncoupling/coupling wouldnt be allowed because once split they become two trains giving two trains in section. Northern wouldnt need a shunter at Alderley Edge but would need a second driver & guard to ride passenger to Alderley Edge to take care of the 323 that would be left behind.

Capacity really is an issue on most of the newtwork, and every available unit that is fit for traffic is used during the rush hours, so finding extra coaches for services without affecting another is going to be difficult - I know its annoying and I know too well the feeling of feeling silly after writing a curt letter in a rage.

Ive lost count of the amount of times Ive been left in the dark by control and have passenger looking for anyone in a uniform to vent at......

 

[John_158]

Northern rail seem to have lots of little tricks as one which is quite common up here in Liverpool is to Cancel a Service then put a 156 on the next Service that is Booked for a 142 or 150 so that they can squeeze more standing passengers on because the carriage is Longer instead of jsut dishing out the overtime.

 

[Mintona]

The 1738 - that's my 1802. I will look out for it tonight, see how many are on it (if it isn't cancelled again :roll

Quite a few get off at Wilmslow Phil, but it is already fairly empty. Loads of seats after Wilmslow.

 

[Chilled Phill]

Quite a few get off at Wilmslow Phil, but it is already fairly empty. Loads of seats after Wilmslow.

Indeed, I was on the one half an hour beforehand. Obviously, before Cheadle Hulme, the train had passengers standing up, but by an acceptable amount considering it was mid-ish rush hour. I should know as I only got a seat after Alderley Edge...

I swore I saw you dispatch that train on Thursday night, Mintona.

 

[Mintona]

Indeed, I was on the one half an hour beforehand. Obviously, before Cheadle Hulme, the train had passengers standing up, but by an acceptable amount considering it was mid-ish rush hour. I should know as I only got a seat after Alderley Edge...

I swore I saw you dispatch that train on Thursday night, Mintona.

It's almost certain you did. I do all the trains off Platform 4 at Wilmslow. I'm on middle turn next week now though, so won't be there in the evenings.

 

[xtradj]

you cant blame virgin

theres only 1 virgin both ways per hour Man - Crewe ?

 

[Chilled Phill]

Yes, but that's an extra (and pretty much needless) two trains down that line. Arriva Trains Wales operate the exact same service in terms of the Man - Crewe line with calls at Stockport, Wilmslow and Crewe before going onto South Wales.

In an ideal world, Virgin would've worked around what's already in place or better yet try and fill up the trains they already have in place from Manchester. But then again, Virgin are like the highest priority service along the WCML so I shouldn't really moan.

 

[Chilled Phill]

(Double post, many apologies. )

Just got my responce from Northern just incase anybody was interested.

Dear Mr Probe



Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.



I was sorry to learn of the delay to your journey on the 18:08 service from Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe station on the 16th December 2008. Please accept my sincere apologies for the inconvenience this must have caused.



My information is that a passenger had activated the emergency cord on the train at Manchester Piccadilly station prior to the train departing. The incident was fully investigated.



I am also that your conductor didn’t provide enough information about the delay. I am disappointed that information was not passed on to our passengers. Please accept my sincere apologies for any inconvenience this caused.



In reply to your comments concerning the coupling of the units together during service disruption. I have forwarded your email to the appropriate manager for his information and reference.



Thank you for your feedback, it is much appreciated.

Note exactly sure I can copy this onto the forum, but I removed the sender's name so I think it should be okay to reproduce.

Btw, my surname ISN'T Probe, it's merely part of my email address.

All in all, I do actually feel a bit stupid sending that e-mail now and the reasons for being late have been resolved as well. Looking back, I don't think I was angry with Northern but with the passengers who would rather complain and demand what, as I learnt from this topic, indeed is the very unlikely, if not impossible.

Once again, I thank you guys for the intelligence and patience shown to put up with me and my ideas...