Couple of Qs about steam

[alexl92]

Been watching some videos on youtube and some questions came to mind.

1. In one vid, 46233 was struggling to set off from a station in Devon, and had to reverse back to the station to try again. Whilst the train was being pulled the few yards back to the station, the loco crew were leaning out of the cab window and one was having a cig. Now, this in itself is no heinous crime and clearly it's not a health and safety problem either but I would have thought that at a time where you're trying to re-start a train on the mainline after a difficult departure on the first try, the last thing you'd be thinking of would be having a fag.
Would that not be a little unprofessional or is it no problem? Not judging, just interested to know how it's viewed.

2. Another video I watched featured 60009 + 4468 + support coach; Number 9 was bringing Mallard to the NRM for the final Gathering of the six A4s. The train reverses into York station support coach first, and then sets off forwards (ie with 9 leading) to the NRM, but 60009 slipped a couple of times as it set off. This surprised me, because as heavy as a loco undoubtedly is, I'd have thought an A4 wouldn't struggle to start a train of one dead loco and one coach, even if the rails were a little greasy. Is York station on a bit of a gradient or is it pretty normal for a bit of slip even with a lighter train?

Thanks!

 

[Flying Phil]

Good questions
Re 1 I don't think a ciggy would affect the ability to do the job and it might have been the fireman rather than driver?
2 I think it would be a slightly heavy hand on the regulator causing the slip - but York is on a curve, so inevitably wheels on one side would be slipping very slightly.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It is horribly easy to get a steam engine to slip when running light - i know, I've done it!

In my one and only ignominious attempt at "driving" - I was 13, and had made friends with a particularly friendly Holbeck crew. Anyway, one morning on the footplate, the driver had turned the loco - 45573 Newfoundland - and he offered me the regulator.

so i edged it open a tad, and waited for the chuff chuff ....... and nothing happened. So i pulled the regulator a bit more, and next thing the loco was shaking like a leaf under a column of smoke 65 feet in the air.

Needless to say, the driver quickly pulled the regulator closed, and we proceeded off shed in a less spectacular fashion

He'd have been in trouble then, of course, had we been spotted, but Gawd knows what would happen to a driver today if he allowed such experiments !
but it was different back then.

 

[E&W Lucas]

but York is on a curve, so inevitably wheels on one side would be slipping very slightly.

Can you explain how you've reached this conclusion please?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Been watching some videos on youtube and some questions came to mind.

1. In one vid, 46233 was struggling to set off from a station in Devon, and had to reverse back to the station to try again. Whilst the train was being pulled the few yards back to the station, the loco crew were leaning out of the cab window and one was having a cig. Now, this in itself is no heinous crime and clearly it's not a health and safety problem either but I would have thought that at a time where you're trying to re-start a train on the mainline after a difficult departure on the first try, the last thing you'd be thinking of would be having a fag.
Would that not be a little unprofessional or is it no problem? Not judging, just interested to know how it's viewed.

2. Another video I watched featured 60009 + 4468 + support coach; Number 9 was bringing Mallard to the NRM for the final Gathering of the six A4s. The train reverses into York station support coach first, and then sets off forwards (ie with 9 leading) to the NRM, but 60009 slipped a couple of times as it set off. This surprised me, because as heavy as a loco undoubtedly is, I'd have thought an A4 wouldn't struggle to start a train of one dead loco and one coach, even if the rails were a little greasy. Is York station on a bit of a gradient or is it pretty normal for a bit of slip even with a lighter train?

Thanks!

Sounds awfully like platform end sniping at those doing something that you're envious of;especially the first "question"
If you truly want to know the answers, please purchase some overalls and a pair of safety boots, and go and get stuck in somewhere that is doing something about keeping these wonderful machines operating.

 

[alexl92]

Sounds awfully like platform end sniping at those doing something that you're envious of;especially the first "question"
If you truly want to know the answers, please purchase some overalls and a pair of safety boots, and go and get stuck in somewhere that is doing something about keeping these wonderful machines operating.

Apologies if it came off like that; I'm well aware that I have no place to criticise the crews and I didn't intend my question as doing so.

I was merely surprised because I had assumed (naively or otherwise) that in a situation where the train has tried to set off and struggled beacuse of the conditions (I am not suggesting for even a second that the fireman or whoever having a fag is the reason why - that would be ridiculous), it would be a sort of 'All hands on deck' situation and the aim would be to set off again as quick as possible to regain lost time. I guess to a novice onlooker it just looked like an odd time to light up.

And with regard to the second video, I'm simply asking to increase my knowledge; I know that engines do slip when starting, but having never had the pleasure of driving a kettle, I don't know what causes it. From the answer above I suppose it's a bit like a car getting wheelspin on a greasy road then?

 

[Flying Phil]

Can you explain how you've reached this conclusion please?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hi
I have made an assumption based on the fact that the two wheels are fixed on each axle and the curve of the track means the inner rail is a smaller circumference to the outer rail. I know the wheel profile, being slightly conical, is to compensate for this effect but I assumed the wheels would centralise on the track when going slowly into the station.
I am quite happy to stand corrected if this is wrong though...

 

[70014IronDuke]

Apologies if it came off like that; I'm well aware that I have no place to criticise the crews and I didn't intend my question as doing so.

It didn't come over like that. At least, not to me.

I was merely surprised because I had assumed (naively or otherwise) that in a situation where the train has tried to set off and struggled beacuse of the conditions (I am not suggesting for even a second that the fireman or whoever having a fag is the reason why - that would be ridiculous), it would be a sort of 'All hands on deck' situation and the aim would be to set off again as quick as possible to regain lost time. I guess to a novice onlooker it just looked like an odd time to light up.

It was probably a fake Woodbine for a 1950s' re-enactment weekend

Seriously, my guess is that for some smokers, it helps them concentrate - rather like drawing a deep breath and saying mentality: OK, here we go again, let's do it this time.

And with regard to the second video, I'm simply asking to increase my knowledge; I know that engines do slip when starting, but having never had the pleasure of driving a kettle, I don't know what causes it. From the answer above I suppose it's a bit like a car getting wheelspin on a greasy road then?

Yes. The coefficient of friction between a steel wheel and steel rail is far lower than, eg a rubber tyre and road.

It is partly this that makes train travel energy efficient - but then it comes back to bite you when you want to stop, because you can't do it as quickly as in a car, or you slide. Once you start to slide, the coefficient of friction is even less still. So once you start sliding (or slipping) you have to drastically reduce the force on the wheel rim to regain stability.

A pacific will tend to slip more easily than a 4-6-0, - unrebuilt Bulleids were (in)famous for it - but either way, as i experienced, it's very easy to put a steam loco into slip on starting. In fact, I'm amazed at the skill of drivers that they so often pull away with no slip.

 

[ac6000cw]

I've had a go at couple of steam 'driving experience' sessions, one on a Southern 'Lord Nelson' 4-6-0, the other on a small LBSCR 'Terrier' tank 0-6-0.

What I remember from both was how stiff the regulator was (the valve which controls the ammount of steam passed from boiler to cylinders), and how it also had a lot of 'play', so that it had to be 'nudged' (quite hard) to open it, which makes it difficult to open it precisely by a small amount. It needs a lot of skill and experience to do that while balancing it against the time it takes for the steam to reach the cylinders, and also against the naturally slow release of the train brakes (i.e. so you don't roll backwards).

Also remember that express passenger locos had to be designed for power (rather than low-speed tractive effort) and good ride stability at higher speeds. Hence the large diameter driving wheels and leading/trailing bogies/pony trucks (and maybe harder springing). All of which tended to make them more 'slippery' at low speeds - at 'difficult' large stations it wasn't unusual to use the shunting loco that had bought in the empty stock to give the departing train a shove out of the platform, to reduce the chance of slipping. Heavy passenger trains also had to be banked or piloted up steep/long gradients (Shap/Lickey/Devon banks etc.) in the steam age - that stopped when diesels and electrics with more low-speed tractive effort arrived.

 

[DarloRich]

Did i not read somewhere ( from a drivers account) about the problems of getting A3/A4 started away from York in the olden days?

 

[Phil.]

Apologies if it came off like that; I'm well aware that I have no place to criticise the crews and I didn't intend my question as doing so.

I was merely surprised because I had assumed (naively or otherwise) that in a situation where the train has tried to set off and struggled beacuse of the conditions (I am not suggesting for even a second that the fireman or whoever having a fag is the reason why - that would be ridiculous), it would be a sort of 'All hands on deck' situation and the aim would be to set off again as quick as possible to regain lost time. I guess to a novice onlooker it just looked like an odd time to light up.

And with regard to the second video, I'm simply asking to increase my knowledge; I know that engines do slip when starting, but having never had the pleasure of driving a kettle, I don't know what causes it. From the answer above I suppose it's a bit like a car getting wheelspin on a greasy road then?

A kettle is a metal container used to heat water to boiling point for whatever reason. Do not refer to a large complex machine requiring real skill and experience to master it as a "kettle".

 

[alexl92]

A kettle is a metal container used to heat water to boiling point for whatever reason. Do not refer to a large complex machine requiring real skill and experience to master it as a "kettle".

Oh for goodness' sake lighten up. I've heard that term used hundreds of times by differerent enthusiasts talking about a steam locomotive, including all over this very forum and nobody else seems to get upset over it.

Thanks to those who have answered the questions - appreciate it very much.

 

[jamieP]

Oh for goodness' sake lighten up. I've heard that term used hundreds of times by differerent enthusiasts talking about a steam locomotive, including all over this very forum and nobody else seems to get upset over it.

Thanks to those who have answered the questions - appreciate it very much.

I work with steam engines and myself and people I work with refer to them as kettles, nothing wrong with the term

 

[bearhugger]

A kettle is a metal container used to heat water to boiling point for whatever reason. Do not refer to a large complex machine requiring real skill and experience to master it as a "kettle".

By your own definition of a kettle in the first sentence, a steam engine heats water to boiling point in order to provide motive power. So perfectly fine to call steam engines kettles!

 

[Deepgreen]

Can you explain how you've reached this conclusion please?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sounds awfully like platform end sniping at those doing something that you're envious of;especially the first "question"
If you truly want to know the answers, please purchase some overalls and a pair of safety boots, and go and get stuck in somewhere that is doing something about keeping these wonderful machines operating.

No it doesn't. The OP was very clear that it was not a criticism but a quest for understanding! Your response is yet another example of an over-defensive and aggressive response to a genuine question - a response of a type that seems to plague this forum.

How would the OP becoming a steam loco driver or fireman help in any way to answer the question about smoking, which is a very fair one, given the railway's clear and all-embracing rule?

You have answered genuine interest with rudeness - well done you.

 

[ffm]

The point on the cigarette is a very good one, assuming the video was recent then the individual concerned was breaking the law. The footplate is a workplace and is no different than the work's van - smoking there is against the law.

As to slipping the weight of the trailing load does have an impact, but far more so the rail conditions. Therefore a loco can slip on a rail when running light, yes far less likely but it can and does happen, greasy rails are greasy rails.

 

[Deepgreen]

The point on the cigarette is a very good one, assuming the video was recent then the individual concerned was breaking the law. The footplate is a workplace and is no different than the work's van - smoking there is against the law.

As to slipping the weight of the trailing load does have an impact, but far more so the rail conditions. Therefore a loco can slip on a rail when running light, yes far less likely but it can and does happen, greasy rails are greasy rails.

This is true, despite what some will regard as the apparent farce of smoking on a steam loco footplate being wrong (passive steaming is a serious issue!)!

Steam locos can and do slip no matter what weight is behind the draw bar, but the differential slipping between inside and outside curve driving wheels will be so tiny as to be moot. Incidentally, the same slipping applies to any form of traction, it's just that steam loco wheels are large and exposed enough to be able to spot it clearly, and the power application system is such that there is no slip control as found on almost all diesel and electric locos. In other words, full power can be applied immediately on a steam loco, but others have notching, slip control, etc.

 

[Phil.]

The point on the cigarette is a very good one, assuming the video was recent then the individual concerned was breaking the law. The footplate is a workplace and is no different than the work's van - smoking there is against the law.

As to slipping the weight of the trailing load does have an impact, but far more so the rail conditions. Therefore a loco can slip on a rail when running light, yes far less likely but it can and does happen, greasy rails are greasy rails.

Never mind that at the other end smoke is pouring out. Oh the irony!

 

[ffm]

Never mind that at the other end smoke is pouring out. Oh the irony!

Indeed, of course if this was applied as a legal exemption then smoking could be allowed in a kitchen......

 

[Cowley]

Reading this reminded me of having a footplate ride on the Mid Hants in the early 90s on The Watercress Belle dining train which I volunteered on sometimes (I'm still pretty quick at washing up), a friend of mine frequently drove it and didn't mind if I hopped up for one of the trips one way (the train did two return trips of the line).
It was on one of the WDs in the dark and I positioned myself in a corner by the tender out of the way and made myself a roll-up, I lit it and had a couple of puffs before he turned round with a look of shock on his face and told me to put it out as there was no smoking on the footplate!
I stubbed it out hurriedly, threw it over the side and looked up to see them all doubled up with laughter watching me.