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End of Steam

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70014IronDuke

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Did Munster - Berlin via Hanover in 1984 , apart from the interesting border rigmarole , saw 2 working DDR steam freights around Magdeburg - no chance of photos as there were border guards patrolling the corridors....plenty of stored engines around in various yards. Friend of mine did an exchange in Dresden (lucky bloke) , and he said there were a good number of active steam workings in the Leipzig etc area at the time....

1984? Oh my goodness, that felt like the end of time in the 1970s!

Now what you wrote about France would have been true for DB in the early 70s. Rheine-Emden was steam until - i'm not sure, my last trip there was 72 autumn, and i'd guess it was 75% steam. Pacifics on expresses (well, more like semi-fasts0. The Mosel Valley still had significant steam on passenger into 72, and I think Regensburg-Hof was 03 pacifics still too.

And you had 086 ? tanks on lines like the Aschaffenburg branch.

Plus there was still a lot of steam on goods traffic. Don't think there was much left after 75 though.
 
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Calthrop

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Given that Churchill was British Prime Minister between 1951-55: the key years in which the decision to "go for diesel" with the modernisation plan were made, it wouldn't surprise me if there is an element of truth in there being worries about communist incursions into the coal supply.
Remember two things: firstly Churchill was responsible (as First Lord of the Admiralty) for instigating the replacement of coal by oil in the Royal Navy. Secondly, his role in breaking the National Strike in the 1920's (which to him would have been communist-led). The two together would have shown that switching to an oil-based fuel (whether diesel or heavy oil) was both possible and desirable on cost and security grounds.

While he was, for sure, desperately needed at the time when he was that – overall the more I hear nowadays about Mr. W.S.C., the less I like him, for various reasons !

... Holland proceeded as quickly as possible with electrification and I think that most of their diesel locos were shunters.

The Netherlands' railways were very hard-hit by World War II: in 1944, in support of Allied military action, their staff went on strike; whereupon the system was in a large part torn up and the materials sent to Germany. To a very considerable extent, it was a case of the system having to be rebuilt from scratch after the war; with all principal lines being made electric (I believe a fair amount of electrification had been implemented before the war). If I have things rightly, the last use of steam on the Dutch state railways was in 1958 -- it having been employed mainly for shunting, in its last years.

But as you say, conditions after the war were shocking across much of Europe, but especially Germany/Austria. If you get a chance to see a documentary made by Frenchman Olivier Wieviorka this year - I think it's called something like "After Hitler" - this depicts the problems faced by the Allies from May 1945.

This documentary would seem to have something of a parallel in a book by Keith Lowe, published a few years ago: Savage Continent -- Europe in the Aftermath of World War II. From what I gather, chronicling (as referenced above) often extremely bad times in the late 1940s in all countries of Continental Europe which had been German-occupied or on the Axis side. Much privation, disorder, crime, and often violence -- this in Western Europe, even to quite some extent in the small liberal democracies; whereas in Eastern Europe under Stalinism to the max, outright hell was unleashed. (I flipped through the book when it came out, and chose not to read it: already had a fair idea of how things were in those years, and preferred not to be made miserable in detail.)

Purely railway-wise, things must have been wonderful in Eastern Europe in the decade after 1945: but one feels that the other stuff there and then, would have been too high a price to pay !


Dates which I have for steam finishing in France and the two Germanies, from back numbers of Continental Railway Journal in my possession, follow...

Yes, 1974 according to:

http://www.sncf.com/en/meet-sncf/sncf-history?date=1959

And, indeed, it was at Sarreguemines (I hadn't realised that before - it may even have been the same loco we saw working 11-12 months earlier.)

"And on 31 March of the same year, the 141 R 73 steam locomotive, based at the Sarreguemines depot, made its last commercial run, ending France’s steam traction era after 142 years."

The end for SNCF steam "pure and simple", spring 1974 as above; but a tiny amount of steam continued in commercial public rail service in France for another year-and-a-half, thanks to a particularly French bit of weirdness. At the time of French railway nationalisation in 1938, certain standard-gauge secondary / branch-line parts of the "big companies' " systems were hived-off to other railway operators; motive power for the lines concerned was leased henceforth, from the SNCF. One such outfit was the Franche-Comte system of the CFTA undertaking, based on Gray not quite 300km south-east of Paris; which leased from the SNCF some class 140C 2-8-0s (class extinct on SNCF itself, I think as of the late 1960s). A few of these continued in regular use on freight over part of this system, until September 1975.

I suspect the DDR kept steam going well into the 1980's following the cessation of "cheap" Russian oil in the mid 1970's (they could sell it elsewhere for hard cash following the 1973 crisis) - Honneker's policy was to make up the energy gap by burning even more coal...

Standard-gauge steam in East Germany was gradually run down until its end in early autumn 1988 (last venue for its regular use, was Oschersleben). Steam continued, of course, to work most services on seven or eight narrow-gauge systems / lines (basically still running today with steam) -- the E.G. authorities' plans being to keep these with steam as an attraction for tourists / railfans, while also retaining them as railways doing a serious job of carrying passengers / freight.

Now what you wrote about France would have been true for DB in the early 70s. Rheine-Emden was steam until - i'm not sure, my last trip there was 72 autumn, and i'd guess it was 75% steam. Pacifics on expresses (well, more like semi-fasts0. The Mosel Valley still had significant steam on passenger into 72, and I think Regensburg-Hof was 03 pacifics still too.

And you had 086 ? tanks on lines like the Aschaffenburg branch.

Plus there was still a lot of steam on goods traffic. Don't think there was much left after 75 though.

DB steam finished for good in October 1977 -- its last use being on the Rheine -- Emden line.
 

Taunton

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I certainly saw former DDR steam locos running in Berlin in 1991, a Class 52 thundered light through Ostkreuz in front of me quite unexpectedly one evening, and I seem to recall there was a Sunday steam service in the public timetable on one of the lines that ran southwards.

Regarding Britain, the 1968 end of steam was actually quite EARLY compared to other major countries, France, Germany, Italy, etc. The building of a couple of thousand locos postwar was, firstly, concluding production of pre-nationalisation designs, and secondly Riddles' fascination with then having his own set of steam loco designs, the majority of which were useless but the top management of the time was pretty useless and didn't catch him at it. Even the Western was allowed to keep building pannier tanks long after the replacing Class 08 diesel shunters had entered volume production. Once Riddles was out of the way after 1953 the designs were then drawn up for main line diesels, with of course an equally poor lot of initial designs at first from any Tom, Dick and Harry who said they could build them.
 

Calthrop

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I certainly saw former DDR steam locos running in Berlin in 1991, a Class 52 thundered light through Ostkreuz in front of me quite unexpectedly one evening, and I seem to recall there was a Sunday steam service in the public timetable on one of the lines that ran southwards.

I saw a bit of same in those parts in 1990: per my understanding, there was plenty of it "there and then", but it was all, basically, specially arranged for those who liked steam.
 

neilb62

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Local legend has it that the night station pilot at Preston was a 3F 'Jinty' on the night of 3rd August '68 covering for a diesel failure, it would have shunted the stock of the Barrow Sleepers on the morning of the 4th August therefore making this the last 'service' passenger move on BR. All our ex-steam guys have gone now at Preston so can anyone else confirm this?
 

70014IronDuke

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Local legend has it that the night station pilot at Preston was a 3F 'Jinty' on the night of 3rd August '68 covering for a diesel failure, it would have shunted the stock of the Barrow Sleepers on the morning of the 4th August therefore making this the last 'service' passenger move on BR. All our ex-steam guys have gone now at Preston so can anyone else confirm this?

See post 76 - plus add consumption of alcohol and/or mind altering substances to the list.

There were no Jinties left on BR in August 1968. Not even in store, certainly nowhere near Preston.

The Barrow sleepers were heated and shunted by the loco which returned off the 20.50 (approx) Preston - Blackpool south, which was, I think, BICBW, 45212.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...

This documentary would seem to have something of a parallel in a book by Keith Lowe, published a few years ago: Savage Continent -- Europe in the Aftermath of World War II. From what I gather, chronicling (as referenced above) often extremely bad times in the late 1940s in all countries of Continental Europe which had been German-occupied or on the Axis side.

The film by the French guy actually shows the misery of the Germans too, including thousands of kids made orphans rummaging through the rubble of their cities. It gave the impression not of crime, but of an incredible solidarity among the Germans to rebuild the country and take in the children. It was actually very moving.

Don't get me wrong, Naziism had to be stopped (my own father bombed a fair number of those cities), but the aftermath was misery for the people Hitler left behind for some years.

The end for SNCF steam "pure and simple", spring 1974 as above; .... One such outfit was the Franche-Comte system of the CFTA undertaking, based on Gray not quite 300km south-east of Paris; which leased from the SNCF some class 140C 2-8-0s (class extinct on SNCF itself, I think as of the late 1960s). A few of these continued in regular use on freight over part of this system, until September 1975.

Thanks for that. I think the SNCF used 140Cs on lines around Verdun to around 69 or 70, but I was unable to get there in time.
...
DB steam finished for good in October 1977 -- its last use being on the Rheine -- Emden line.

I guess it was freight only by then? Kriegsloks? Or did they keep some of those chunky 2-8-2s back? (044s, I thiink ? )

I met some Germans from Lingen a year or two back. They were amazed I knew their town. I told them I'd been there in the early 70s. I guess it was the last DB works that overhauled steam.
 
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I certainly saw former DDR steam locos running in Berlin in 1991, a Class 52 thundered light through Ostkreuz in front of me quite unexpectedly one evening, and I seem to recall there was a Sunday steam service in the public timetable on one of the lines that ran southwards.

Regarding Britain, the 1968 end of steam was actually quite EARLY compared to other major countries, France, Germany, Italy, etc. The building of a couple of thousand locos postwar was, firstly, concluding production of pre-nationalisation designs, and secondly Riddles' fascination with then having his own set of steam loco designs, the majority of which were useless but the top management of the time was pretty useless and didn't catch him at it. Even the Western was allowed to keep building pannier tanks long after the replacing Class 08 diesel shunters had entered volume production. Once Riddles was out of the way after 1953 the designs were then drawn up for main line diesels, with of course an equally poor lot of initial designs at first from any Tom, Dick and Harry who said they could build them.

another factor was that BR would would diesel traction on a line even if it was scheduled for electrification ...
 

Bevan Price

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...
Originally Posted by Calthrop View Post
DB steam finished for good in October 1977 -- its last use being on the Rheine -- Emden line.

I guess it was freight only by then? Kriegsloks? Or did they keep some of those chunky 2-8-2s back? (044s, I thiink ? )

I was on a LCGB weekend tour in September 1977, just before the end of West German steam. Apart from some locos waiting possible preservation, the working steam classes at Rheine depot were:

DB 012 (ex Class 01.10) 4-6-2 (Oil fired)
DB 042 (ex Class 41) 2-8-2 (oil fired)
DB 043 2-10-0 (Oil fired version of Class 44)
DB 044 2-10-0 (coal fired version)
DB 050 2-10-0 (coal fired) - the pre-war precursor of the Class 52 Kriegloks.

Most of the Rheine - Emden line passenger services were already diesel operated.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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I certainly saw former DDR steam locos running in Berlin in 1991, a Class 52 thundered light through Ostkreuz in front of me quite unexpectedly one evening, and I seem to recall there was a Sunday steam service in the public timetable on one of the lines that ran southwards.

In September 1993 on a Sunday morning I traveled behind 52.8134 from Berlin Lichtenberg to Rheinsberg which is some 75km north-west of Berlin and is the gateway to a "lake district" as well as home to a fine Schloss. The service was in the national timetable and advertised as steam-hauled though its actual operation seemed to be in the hands of preservationists. The return working was sometime in the evening for the benefit of day-trippers and I left on the next service out (diesel-hauled). At various points in the journey the train was being "chased" by a number of road-borne photographers. I have no idea how long this operation continued but I appreciated the novelty of it at the time.
 

70014IronDuke

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I was on a LCGB weekend tour in September 1977, just before the end of West German steam. Apart from some locos waiting possible preservation, the working steam classes at Rheine depot were:

DB 012 (ex Class 01.10) 4-6-2 (Oil fired)
DB 042 (ex Class 41) 2-8-2 (oil fired)
DB 043 2-10-0 (Oil fired version of Class 44)
DB 044 2-10-0 (coal fired version)
DB 050 2-10-0 (coal fired) - the pre-war precursor of the Class 52 Kriegloks.

Ah, very informative. thank you, Bevan. That's an amazing variety (relatively) I would have imagined that the 012s would have all gone before the end, it's a bit like BR keeping, say, some Jubilees till 03.08.68.

I meant the 042s earlier, not the 044s - but it was a long time ago when I was concerned with DB steam.

Most of the Rheine - Emden line passenger services were already diesel operated.

Yes, I would have assumed so. all the more surprising that five classes were in service until the end. Did the 012s have any booked turns by then, or were they just to cover diesel shortages, do you know?
 

Cowley

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I don't have anything really to add to this thread other than to say I have always found the post war history of Europe very interesting.
This has been a fascinating read though gentlemen, thanks all.
 

Bevan Price

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Ah, very informative. thank you, Bevan. That's an amazing variety (relatively) I would have imagined that the 012s would have all gone before the end, it's a bit like BR keeping, say, some Jubilees till 03.08.68.

I meant the 042s earlier, not the 044s - but it was a long time ago when I was concerned with DB steam.



Yes, I would have assumed so. all the more surprising that five classes were in service until the end. Did the 012s have any booked turns by then, or were they just to cover diesel shortages, do you know?


Having looked at old copies of Continental Railway Journal (CRJ), the West German Class 012 pacifics had more or less finished regular service by summer 1976 - just a few remained mostly for use on "specials". Likewise, the residual Class 050 saw little use after 1976.
Reports in CRJ showed that the W German steam fleet in September 1976 consisted of:

Rheine/Emden:- 11 x Class 042; 19 X Class 043. 012-081 was to be reinstated for "steam farewells".

Gelsenkirchen-Bismarck:- 23 x Class 044 (shed closed 22 May 1977)

Duisberg - Wedau & Oberhausen-Osterfeld Sud (sub-shed):- 15 x Class 050
(Shed closed 21 February 1977)

The last steam enthusiast specials were on 23 October 1977, but a final steam freight was reported to have run on 26 October 1977.


East Germany.

Standard guage steam lingered into the 1990s. Several classes were retained for what became "Plandampf" specials, but apart from those, in 1991, just a few Class 52 & 50 were in "normal" use. Although Germany was reunited by this time, DB & DR had not yet been officially amalgamated. CRJ reports that Class 52 worked a handful of "summer only" passenger services until at least 1993.
 

Phil.

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Given that Churchill was British Prime Minister between 1951-55: the key years in which the decision to "go for diesel" with the modernisation plan were made, it wouldn't surprise me if there is an element of truth in there being worries about communist incursions into the coal supply.
Remember two things: firstly Churchill was responsible (as First Lord of the Admiralty) for instigating the replacement of coal by oil in the Royal Navy. Secondly, his role in breaking the National Strike in the 1920's (which to him would have been communist-led). The two together would have shown that switching to an oil-based fuel (whether diesel or heavy oil) was both possible and desirable on cost and security grounds.


Splendid but flawed theory. The decision to replace coal fired boilers on R.N. ships with oil fired ones was pure efficiency. It was the same with coal fired steam locomotives.
How much ash do you think that a coal burning boiler - locomotive or ship - produces? somehow that ash has to be cleaned out and disposed of. Whilst that operation is being carried out the locomotive/ship is out of action. A capital ship could spend four hours raising enough steam to move - as too a large locomotive from cold. An oil fuelled ship or diesel locomotive has no such problems. Fuelling a coal fired ship was an all day job, fuelling an oil fired ship is much much quicker and, in operational times could be - and still is - carried out at sea.
Now, the final point is - returning to the out of service for cleaning I mentioned above - just how much more an oil powered machine's availability and efficiency is.
B.R. withdrew locomotive 4080 "Powderham Castle" after it had been in service for just over forty years. It's final mileage was 1,974,400.
In just 12 years locomotive 9020 - later 55020 - reached 2,000,000 miles and carried on for another eight years. The H.S.T.s have attained even higher mileages.
That's why both the G.W.R. and the L.M.S were working on diesel powered locomotives whilst the S.R. and L.N.E.R. were working on electric ones. Nothing to do with those nasty communist coal miners but all to do with availability.
 
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randyrippley

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Splendid but flawed theory. The decision to replace coal fired boilers on R.N. ships with oil fired ones was pure efficiency. It was the same with coal fired steam locomotives.
How much ash do you think that a coal burning boiler - locomotive or ship - produces? somehow that ash has to be cleaned out and disposed of. Whilst that operation is being carried out the locomotive/ship is out of action. A capital ship could spend four hours raising enough steam to move - as too a large locomotive from cold. An oil fuelled ship or diesel locomotive has no such problems. Fuelling a coal fired ship was an all day job, fuelling an oil fired ship is much much quicker and, in operational times could be - and still is - carried out at sea.
Now, the final point is - returning to the out of service for cleaning I mentioned above - just how much more an oil powered machine's availability and efficiency is.
B.R. withdrew locomotive 4080 "Powderham Castle" after it had been in service for just over forty years. It's final mileage was 1,974,400.
In just 12 years locomotive 9020 - later 55020 - reached 2,000,000 miles and carried on for another eight years. The H.S.T.s have attained even higher mileages.
That's why both the G.W.R. and the L.M.S were working on diesel powered locomotives whilst the S.R. and L.N.E.R. were working on electric ones. Nothing to do with those nasty communist coal miners but all to do with availability.


You misunderstand my point, which is that Churchill's experience with the change in naval fueling made him aware that the change from coal to oil was possible relatively easily. Admittedly the change was from coal fired boilers to heavy oil fired boilers, but the basic fact was that he'd proved the change was possible. I'm not suggesting the naval change was for any other reason than ease of use, extended range - and most importantly - reduction of manpower both onboard and at the docks.
However given that he knew the change was easy, given his anti-communist views and national strike experience, and given the degree of communist infiltration into the trade union movement in the 1950's, he saw a latent problem, saw how it could be fixed - and ordered it done.
 
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