Hypothetical situation regarding PRIV fares

[najaB]

Rubbish.

Purchase at first opportunity. Someone clearly doesn't know his job.

When no facilities are available to issue priv fares, NRCoT apply as per normal, and revenue staff are specifically requested to apply discretion with priv holders.

Depending on how long ago this was, the NRCoC would - if read *very* strictly - have required purchase of a ticket from the TVM which could then be swapped for the required ticket when possible (Condition 3). This, of course, assumes that TMD Tom intended to pay using a method that the TVM accepted.

As you say, given the difficulty of obtaining Condition 3 swaps, pay at earliest opportunity.

 

[bb21]

Depending on how long ago this was, the NRCoC would - if read *very* strictly - have required purchase of a ticket from the TVM which could then be swapped for the required ticket when possible (Condition 3). This, of course, assumes that TMD Tom intended to pay using a method that the TVM accepted.

As you say, given the difficulty of obtaining Condition 3 swaps, pay at earliest opportunity.

I believe the ATOC internal briefing explicitly overrode Condition 3 as it were, so that settles that. No TOC will take any action on the "irregularity" in those cases.

 

[6Gman]

I had an issue a little while back whilst using my Priv. I travelled from a station where the ticket office was closed so there was only a TVM in operation. So being unable to purchase a ticket with discount applied I boarded the train with the intention to purchase at my destination (which does have an open ticket office). There was an RPI on board the train and on explaining the situation he advised he would 'let me off this time but I should go out of my way to get a priv discount if the ticket office was not open next time'. I thanked him anyway and purchased my ticket as intended at my destination.

I would have expected the NRCoT to apply equally to Priv discounted tickets, so surely there should have been no issue with me buying a Priv at my destination when the ticket office is closed.

That doesn't make any sense! How was he suggesting you should 'go out of your way' to obtain a priv? Walking to the nearest open ticket office?

Very odd.

 

[TMD Tom]

The words 'you should go out of your way to buy a priv if no facilities exist at the station' was the actual direct quote. I was travelling from Whittlesford Parkway on a Sunday so the ticket office was not open at all that day.

If I'd done something wrong or committed a travel irregularity I would not have been expected to be 'let off' just because I had a Priv. I note najaB's comment though on strict interpretation. Perhaps this is what the RPI was referring to.

 

[postye]

That doesn't make any sense! How was he suggesting you should 'go out of your way' to obtain a priv? Walking to the nearest open ticket office?

Very odd.

Whislt I can't answer for TMD Tom, I Was told by one gate line assistant at Waterloo that I should have made a trip to the station earlier in the day to buy a ticket in case the ticket office was closed.
Fortunately for me he was overruled by a senior colleague who happily sold me a ticket, however if he hadn't been there there could have been a problem.

 

[bb21]

Whislt I can't answer for TMD Tom, I Was told by one gate line assistant at Waterloo that I should have made a trip to the station earlier in the day to buy a ticket in case the ticket office was closed.
Fortunately for me he was overruled by a senior colleague who happily sold me a ticket, however if he hadn't been there there could have been a problem.

Agency staff probably, tut tut.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The words 'you should go out of your way to buy a priv if no facilities exist at the station' was the actual direct quote. I was travelling from Whittlesford Parkway on a Sunday so the ticket office was not open at all that day.

If I'd done something wrong or committed a travel irregularity I would not have been expected to be 'let off' just because I had a Priv. I note najaB's comment though on strict interpretation. Perhaps this is what the RPI was referring to.

The arrangement to allow priv holders to purchase onboard where priv-fare issuing facilities were not available has been a long-standing agreement amongst all TOCs, overriding Condition 3 and other such requirements. The only notable exception is where a Permit To Travel machine exists, in which case you are expected to use it where appropriate.

Someone clearly didn't know his job, or was poorly trained.

 

[ag51ruk]

The ATOC website says:

"If the facility to purchase a ticket doesn't exist at your departure station, you should be allowed to buy a priv ticket either on the train, at a station en-route, or at your destination station. As long as you actively seek to pay, there should be no problem and you will not be committing a travel irregularity."

 

[AlterEgo]

Whislt I can't answer for TMD Tom, I Was told by one gate line assistant at Waterloo that I should have made a trip to the station earlier in the day to buy a ticket in case the ticket office was closed.
Fortunately for me he was overruled by a senior colleague who happily sold me a ticket, however if he hadn't been there there could have been a problem.

What an absolute twit.

 

[BestWestern]

The ATOC website says:

"If the facility to purchase a ticket doesn't exist at your departure station, you should be allowed to buy a priv ticket either on the train, at a station en-route, or at your destination station. As long as you actively seek to pay, there should be no problem and you will not be committing a travel irregularity."

What exactly does 'actively seek to pay' translate to, though? Should it be assumed that this overrides the general understanding that a legitimately ticketless passenger does not have to go in search of the Guard? As always, much room is given for personal interpretation, which is rarely ideal when a prosecution is a potential outcome!

 

[Clip]

What exactly does 'actively seek to pay' translate to, though? Should it be assumed that this overrides the general understanding that a legitimately ticketless passenger does not have to go in search of the Guard? As always, much room is given for personal interpretation, which is rarely ideal when a prosecution is a potential outcome!

I would say that it does override that for a normal passenger due to the heavily discount that staff are getting and to ensure staff dont try it on(even though lots still do and hate it when challenged). I and most of my colleagues will always find a guard before even boarding even if we already hold a ticket to let them know we are on there and if we are available to assist should they need it.

 

[BestWestern]

I would say that it does override that for a normal passenger due to the heavily discount that staff are getting and to ensure staff dont try it on(even though lots still do and hate it when challenged). I and most of my colleagues will always find a guard before even boarding even if we already hold a ticket to let them know we are on there and if we are available to assist should they need it.

Presumably, though, it wouldn't stand up if an RPI started filling in the MG11?!

 

[Clip]

Presumably, though, it wouldn't stand up if an RPI started filling in the MG11?!

Why would one start filling in an MG11 if the person was seeking out the guard to purchase their priv?

 

[RJ]

That doesn't make any sense! How was he suggesting you should 'go out of your way' to obtain a priv? Walking to the nearest open ticket office?

Very odd.

It does happen. I once had an EMT Train Manager issue me with a UFN for an undiscounted SOS from Loughborough to St Pancras, a cool £70 or so. I was trying to buy a Priv rover and extension to London from her. She was adamant that if I was travelling from a "village in the middle of nowhere" like Loughborough, I should travel at a time the ticket office is open if I want to buy Priv tickets. In the end the journey never got paid for.

It's not the only time it's happened either, had a guard on SWT at Southampton who was incredibly stroppy about selling a Priv ticket, despite me approaching him before his train left and explaining the ticket office was closed. The guy tried to send me to the ticket office, then the barrier staff (of which there were none), then the TVM, then said if my card declined he'd have me detrained at the next stop, where there were no open ticket issuing facilities. My card didn't decline and my specific request for a "single to Boundary Zone 2 as I'm going to Paddington" was met with a ticket to Clapham Junction. After I got him to refund it and sell it again, he said "bloody staff, always causing problems."

Both had been working on the railways for several years - seems over time they'd developed a special ability to give themselves and their customers a hard time.

Soon after these incidents happened, ATOC issued a brief with guidance regarding Priv ticket sales on board when the ticket office was closed - there must have been multiple reported instances of guards insisting on Priv holders paying the public rate on board their trains.

Also been "trapped" between the gatelines at Southwark/Waterloo East. Southeastern's barrier staff had no facilities to issue a Priv ticket. They said I should buy a full rate ticket from the TVM, travel to Charing Cross to get a refund, then buy a Priv ticket from there. Or buy a full price ticket to my destination then get a refund upon arrival - the ticket office would have long been closed by that time. Or go back to the Underground, walk to Waterloo and buy a ticket from there. They said if I didn't do any of these they'd be issuing a "very big" Penalty Fare. I didn't do any of these things and they didn't get a penny from me.

Plenty of "special" people about who like making it difficult for other staff to get about unfortunately.

 

[BestWestern]

Why would one start filling in an MG11 if the person was seeking out the guard to purchase their priv?

If an RPI was to come across a seated passenger, legitimately ticketless but having not gone in search of the Guard, was what I had in mind.

 

[gray1404]

So are we saying that a person on a public rate ticket does not need to be proactive at looking for the guard if there were no ticket selling facilities on offer.

However, if one is travelling on a Priv ticket then the opposite applies to them and they must go find the guard?

 

[philthetube]

I think it depends on the service you are travelling on, if normal practice on the service is to buy from the Guard they it would be ok to wait at your seat, however normally everyone should have a ticket then the guard should be sought.

Doesn't solve the problem when travelling on a doo service however

 

[Clip]

If an RPI was to come across a seated passenger, legitimately ticketless but having not gone in search of the Guard, was what I had in mind.

Well the rules dont state a passenger has to but we're talking about priv rate here and the post you made mentioned that.

So are we saying that a person on a public rate ticket does not need to be proactive at looking for the guard if there were no ticket selling facilities on offer.

However, if one is travelling on a Priv ticket then the opposite applies to them and they must go find the guard?

Personally I think everyone should seek out the guard to purchase their ticket if they were unable to purchase one at the start of their journey but I am in a minority here with the vocal majority saying they dont have too but as ever Im all for making life east for myself.

But yes thats how I interpret the ATOC guidance on Priv rate travellers

 

[grumblingalong]

I really wonder about some of the guards/train managers mentioned above, I mean seriously? Not got bigger fish to fry? I was always taught and I always apply that having staff on board is a blessing if something goes wrong, I've had a couple of bad experiences myself and have consciously decided that unless the situation was life and death I wouldn't be offering my assistance.

The ability of some of rail staff to cause themselves far more issues than they need to boggles me sometimes.

 

[gray1404]

I think it depends on the service you are travelling on, if normal practice on the service is to buy from the Guard they it would be ok to wait at your seat, however normally everyone should have a ticket then the guard should be sought.

Doesn't solve the problem when travelling on a doo service however

I think this advise is the best I have seen so far.

If DOO then there is not much that can be done aside from paying at the end of journey if there's a booking office (or if journey & time allows, when changing trains - if there's a booking office).