Crossrail fares structure: What will it be?

[Nickt]

Mod Note: Split from this thread.

Can I piggy-back on this thread please? Do clever people on here know what the fare structure on Crossrail will be? Will it be usual LU rates, or overground, or what? Will it be a premium rate for a premium service? Demand might be controlled by pricing?
Any clues gratefully received.

 

[swt_passenger]

Normal Oyster PAYG rates within the zones has been the consistent line taken by TfL over the years. With common station gatelines at all the main LU/Crossrail interchanges across the core section it would be physically impossible to do otherwise.

LU and Overground rates are the same, unless you are using overground as shorthand for ANY national rail. The existing Shenfield line stations (within the zones) and the GW stations (within the zones) are already on the same rates as LU.

I predict that Crossrail beyond the zones, such as on the GW, will use PAYG but charge the national rail fares.

I hope they do something to simplify the fares destinations of 'London Terminals' and 'London Thameslink' for through journeys, as the interchange between Crossrail and Thameslink at Farringdon will probably lead to more confusion about where these are valid than there is now...

 

[Be3G]

LU and Overground rates are the same, unless you are using overground as shorthand for ANY national rail. The existing Shenfield line stations (within the zones) and the GW stations (within the zones) are already on the same rates as LU.

Not true, sadly. When TfL took over some of the Greater Anglia services last year we had yet another fare scale introduced, a kind of midway point between the TfL and NR scales, because the TfL scale was deemed too cheap. (I'd really been looking forward to off-peak non-zone-1 journeys for just the cost of a bus fare!)

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought that only applied to a few specific stations at the east end of the line? A bit academic though, because I don't think when the route fully transfers to Crossrail anything would significantly change from the current situation. EG Crossrail won't have premium fares as the OP suggests.

 

[Be3G]

Nope, what you're thinking of is the special fares for the extension beyond numerical zones to Broxbourne etc. which occurred before TfL took over some of the lines. The special ‘West Anglia’ fare scale applies to all journeys on the lines that lead in to Liverpool Street (C2C excepting). So for example, comparing three similar journeys in the same part of the world:

Enfield Town to Bruce Grove: £1.90/£2.40 (WA scale)
Enfield Chase to Hornsey: £2.20/£2.80 (NR scale)
Oakwood to Turnpike Lane: £1.50/£2.40 (TfL scale)

I take your point about the practicalities of Crossrail not having premium fares, of course. My point is really that in the same way no-one saw this special West Anglia fare scale coming, perhaps TfL have something we've not even considered up their sleeves for the new service.

 

[matt_world2004]

First great western fares in Zones 1-6 are already charged at the lul rate, I guess

Freedom pass valid 24 hours a day to all stations.
Heathrow fares will be the cost of a single fare to hayes and Harlington plus the pay go costs of whatever zones your going through .
Zone 6 may be extended one or two stops beyond west drayton,

I was told a few months ago that the loadings on the 140 meant that tfl were trying to get heathrow airport crossrail into zone 6 but the per passenger cost of running to Heathrow was too expensive for it, with tfl planning on going to some sort of arbitration committee to negotiate down rail access fees.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was told a few months ago that the loadings on the 140 meant that tfl were trying to get heathrow airport crossrail into zone 6 but the per passenger cost of running to Heathrow was too expensive for it, with tfl planning on going to some sort of arbitration committee to negotiate down rail access fees.

I think that was sorted out. Heathrow's proposals for Crossrail access fees were turned down by ORR a few months ago, the airport was trying to get Crossrail to subsidise the original building of the Airport branch and ORR told them to take a hike. We had a thread about it last year: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124825&page=5
but I think it petered out before the decision was formally announced.

ORR reported the decision here: http://orr.gov.uk/consultations/clo...consultations/charging-framework-consultation

 

[matt_world2004]

I think that was sorted out. Heathrow's proposals for Crossrail access fees were turned down by ORR a few months ago, the airport was trying to get Crossrail to subsidise the original building of the Airport branch and ORR told them to take a hike. We had a thread about it last year: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124825&page=5
but I think it petered out before the decision was formally announced.

ORR reported the decision here: http://orr.gov.uk/consultations/clo...consultations/charging-framework-consultation

I guess that means Heathrow is in zone 6 then.

 

[Hadders]

I wonder what's going to happen for paper tickets?

Tickets carrying the maltese cross will obviously be accepted.

What about a ticket from, say, Oxford to Bond Street? Chelmsford to Paddington. Will we have a 'London Crossrail' fudge like 'London Thameslink', or will point to point paper tickets not be sold.

 

[maniacmartin]

My guess is that they'll be issued as Oxford to ZONE U1* LONDN, and Zone U* tickets will be accepted on Crossrail as they are on tube, DLR and London Overground* nowadays.

I doubt that London Terminals tickets will be valid between Paddington and Liverpool St exclusive.

*not sure if they're actually valid on LO, but LO staff always told me that they are.

 

[swt_passenger]

London Thameslink is supposed to be removed, according to the TSGN franchise spec, to make fares from north and south of London work the same way for the relevant stations on the core section. Just like the declared intention to abolish route Thameslink fares, it's all gone very quiet...

 

[Hadders]

London Thameslink is supposed to be removed, according to the TSGN franchise spec, to make fares from north and south of London work the same way for the relevant stations on the core section. Just like the declared intention to abolish route Thameslink fares, it's all gone very quiet...

That's interesting. I wonder what the price rise will be for a passenger travelling from, say, Bedford to Elephant & Castle.

 

[paul1609]

I reckon that when both Thameslink and the Elizabethan line are fully open London Terminals, London Thameslink will be abolished being replaced with London Zone 1 at a premium fare to help recover the costs.

 

[RJ]

My guess is that they'll be issued as Oxford to ZONE U1* LONDN, and Zone U* tickets will be accepted on Crossrail as they are on tube, DLR and London Overground* nowadays.

I doubt that London Terminals tickets will be valid between Paddington and Liverpool St exclusive.

*not sure if they're actually valid on LO, but LO staff always told me that they are.

Not valid on London Overground unless you're using the NR element as part of a permitted route - specifically says so in the iKb and I've seen fares briefs which make a point of it. For example, you can't use a London Terminals to Zone U12 fare to travel from Euston to Brondesbury Park, though it is valid as far as Willesden Junction.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's interesting. I wonder what the price rise will be for a passenger travelling from, say, Bedford to Elephant & Castle.

I've added an extract from the ITT, because I've mis-remembered it:

The Department requires a franchisee who will simplify the rules for ‘London Thameslink’ destinations from the North, and South (where currently passengers from the South must disembark by City Thameslink but passengers from the North may travel to Elephant & Castle) so that the core ‘London Thameslink’ stations are the same for journeys from the North and the South, to apply as soon as practicable to the new franchise.

That suggests they could still theoretically have such a fares group, but it would have to be equally available from both directions...

 

[thedbdiboy]

That's interesting. I wonder what the price rise will be for a passenger travelling from, say, Bedford to Elephant & Castle.

It is not possible for Thameslink prices to rise beyond the regulated limited, i.e. inflation (RPI) with no flex. Where TfL control the east-west axis (Crossrail) they are insistent on charging the zone 1 premium between Liverpool St and Paddington; whilst DfT will hold Thameslink to the current structure which prices Farringdon at the same fare as London Terminals.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that some sort of compromise is going to be needed if the resulting fares are to be logical, but don't hold your breath....

 

[plcd1]

I think we are going to end up with a messy compromise. It is clear that the provisions that resulted in the special "Shenfield / West Anglia TfL" fare scale exist in the Crossrail Agreement although they are redacted. TfL specifically referred to them in the Fares Advice to the Mayor for the devolved services which required a specific Mayoral Direction to be signed off.

Therefore you will have the Shenfield / West Anglia scale applying to and from stations on that line. Depending on what happens with South Eastern devolution you will probably get TfL's standard farescale applying inwards of Stratford and Abbey Wood (if TfL take over the SE inners). This will then remove the Z1 add on regardless of how you reach Z1 - via Crossrail or via Thameslink SE or South Eastern via CX / Cn St / Blackfriars. The lack of an internal gateline at Farringdon between Thameslink (assuming it does run to Gravesend) and Tube / Crossrail causes a big complication on pricing as what price do you charge from somewhere like Woolwich Arsenal? We've already got differential fares between DLR and South Eastern today. Do we really want that continued depending on what train you catch at Woolwich Arsenal? Passengers will be rightfully "annoyed" if they're charged more for going via C St than via Farringdon.

To the west I expect TfL Fares will continue to apply to West Drayton. Beyond that I think it gets horribly involved. I still expect some level of premium fare to be levied into Heathrow. I don't see HAL giving up despite the ORR decision to exclude recovery of historical long term costs. I suppose TfL could fund any extra charges separately from fare revenue but the risk of severe revenue abstraction from HEX would be high leading to more dispute and challenge given the statements about "revenue loss compensation" in the ORR paper.

Beyond West Drayton we then get into the realms of who sets what fares. Given there will be more GWR trains between Paddington and Reading plus GWR retain operation of the branches I expect they will set the fares. I can't see that Crossrail can set differential fares to Reading which are lower than GWR because of the enforcement issues at Reading. Is it feasible to have a Crossrail only gateline? Remember Oyster PAYG can't cope with two validations in the same direction - exit then exit or entry then entry. That's why the interchange gateline at Stratford was removed.

We also have issues about the SWT service to Reading and how that is made "smart" and if Oyster would ever be extended to that line. I suspect not to be honest.

So in summary it will be the "Shenfield / West Anglia TfL / Heathrow / GWR" composite farescale for smart ticketing. I don't dissent from other comments about what may happen with paper based NR through ticketing.

 

[paul1609]

It is not possible for Thameslink prices to rise beyond the regulated limited, i.e. inflation (RPI) with no flex. Where TfL control the east-west axis (Crossrail) they are insistent on charging the zone 1 premium between Liverpool St and Paddington; whilst DfT will hold Thameslink to the current structure which prices Farringdon at the same fare as London Terminals.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that some sort of compromise is going to be needed if the resulting fares are to be logical, but don't hold your breath....

When HS1 opened the whole of the Southeastern (and Marshlink Fares)were hiked by a specially increased inflation index for several years even where there was no improvement in services. They were still regulated but at a higher rate than the rest of the network. This has resulted in season tickets on the Classic Ashford and Hastings lines being around 25% higher than the (normally) much better service on the Brighton Main Line. Come opening day there's no reason I can see why the Dft couldn't fix Thameslink fares at say RPI plus 5% for 5 years and throw in free zone 1 travel.

 

[matt_world2004]

Im wondering if we will see a national rail only zone 1 ticket which would cover all stops on the thameslink core and crossrail core (Is crossrail core classed as part of the national rail network given its operated by tfl?) as well as London terminals tickets currently. So a watford junction to Euston ticket would be represented as a Watford Junction to Zone 1 NR

 

[thedbdiboy]

When HS1 opened the whole of the Southeastern (and Marshlink Fares)were hiked by a specially increased inflation index for several years even where there was no improvement in services. They were still regulated but at a higher rate than the rest of the network. This has resulted in season tickets on the Classic Ashford and Hastings lines being around 25% higher than the (normally) much better service on the Brighton Main Line. Come opening day there's no reason I can see why the Dft couldn't fix Thameslink fares at say RPI plus 5% for 5 years and throw in free zone 1 travel.

That was because the DfT wrote into the SE contract the premium pricing of HS1 fares along with a unique RPI+3% formula. Ironically some of this was to try and undo the disastrous anomalies that had been caused by the previous RPI-1% regime when combined with the high weighting of Travelcard fares in the SE fares basket.
RPI+0% is a Conservative Party manifesto commitment and GTR is being run as a management contract on behalf of the DfT. I can categorically tell you there is no chance that Govt will deviate from this in the short term.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Im wondering if we will see a national rail only zone 1 ticket which would cover all stops on the thameslink core and crossrail core (Is crossrail core classed as part of the national rail network given its operated by tfl?) as well as London terminals tickets currently. So a watford junction to Euston ticket would be represented as a Watford Junction to Zone 1 NR

The problem with this and a number of other sensible suggestions is that it is virtually impossible to unpick the current regulatory regime coupled with the manifesto commitment to stick to RPI+0% with no flex allowed.
We have a government that a) wants simpler fares for commuters; b) has removed the ONLY mechanism that allowed any adjustment to made to such fares on a revenue neutral basis (flex) and c) has said there is no money to fund changes to the fares structure. They are pro-having cake and pro-eating cake but there doesn't seem to be any cake.

 

[kieron]

b) has removed the ONLY mechanism that allowed any adjustment to made to such fares on a revenue neutral basis (flex)

I know "revenue neutral" comes up a lot in discussions on here, but is it really so important for the government?

Crossrail will bring a big boost in ticket sales (if there wasn't a lot of suppressed demand, there wouldn't have been much point), so would anyone care if some of these tickets are a bit cheaper than the closest equivalent from beforehand?

 

[Deerfold]

I know "revenue neutral" comes up a lot in discussions on here, but is it really so important for the government?

Crossrail will bring a big boost in ticket sales (if there wasn't a lot of suppressed demand, there wouldn't have been much point), so would anyone care if some of these tickets are a bit cheaper than the closest equivalent from beforehand?

It's important for the TOCs. Any that will get less revenue will want the difference making up. Any that get more will probably be likely to attribute it to other causes and certainly won't quickly agree to having it taken off them.

 

[maniacmartin]

(Regarding Zone Uxx* Londn tickets(

Not valid on London Overground unless you're using the NR element as part of a permitted route - specifically says so in the iKb and I've seen fares briefs which make a point of it. For example, you can't use a London Terminals to Zone U12 fare to travel from Euston to Brondesbury Park, though it is valid as far as Willesden Junction.

I suspected as much. Last time I tested, they do operate lots of LO ticket gates though!

 

[matt_world2004]

(Regarding Zone Uxx* Londn tickets(



I suspected as much. Last time I tested, they do operate lots of LO ticket gates though!

Zone uxx tickets, as in Underground tickets? They would almost certainly be valid on the east London Line which is still technically classed as an underground service from the perspective of ticketing arrangements, I am sure in a ticketing and revenue bulletin I read from TfL a few weeks ago, That there was permenant ticket acceptance and interavailability for overground tickets on the underground network, infact the list of permenant ticket interavailablity for the underground was quite wide and included many TOC's that I didnt expect it would (Like Great Western Railway.

 

[Lad Brookes]

That was because the DfT wrote into the SE contract the premium pricing of HS1 fares along with a unique RPI+3% formula. Ironically some of this was to try and undo the disastrous anomalies that had been caused by the previous RPI-1% regime when combined with the high weighting of Travelcard fares in the SE fares basket.
RPI+0% is a Conservative Party manifesto commitment and GTR is being run as a management contract on behalf of the DfT. I can categorically tell you there is no chance that Govt will deviate from this in the short term.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem with this and a number of other sensible suggestions is that it is virtually impossible to unpick the current regulatory regime coupled with the manifesto commitment to stick to RPI+0% with no flex allowed.
We have a government that a) wants simpler fares for commuters; b) has removed the ONLY mechanism that allowed any adjustment to made to such fares on a revenue neutral basis (flex) and c) has said there is no money to fund changes to the fares structure. They are pro-having cake and pro-eating cake but there doesn't seem to be any cake.

Not to mention a Mayor of London who has a manifesto commitment to freeze fares within Greater London, despite:
a) no power to do it, as many of the fares within Greater London are at the behest of the TOCs who (I would imagine) would want to be recompensed, given that they took their franchises on the basis of the regulatory increases at the time, and have planned financially based on that.
b) no money to do it- though admittedly that has never stopped any politician before, particularly a Labour one.

So, we have a Conservative government and a Labour mayor who both want the cake and want to eat the cake, but no-one seems to have told the baker. (The BFAWU is probably on strike, admittedly.)

 

[Paul Kelly]

Not valid on London Overground unless you're using the NR element as part of a permitted route - specifically says so in the iKb and I've seen fares briefs which make a point of it. For example, you can't use a London Terminals to Zone U12 fare to travel from Euston to Brondesbury Park, though it is valid as far as Willesden Junction.

This is very interesting - is anybody able to check the iKb for a current quote to see if it's changed? I've been looking into it a bit more and have found the following in the document on interavailability rules attached to the relevant thread in the forum's fares guide: http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=18694&d=1404760434

LU/DLR tickets valid on National Rail services

LU and DLR single & return paper tickets and Group Day Tickets, for which the appropriate zonal fare has been paid, are also valid on
National Rail services between the following stations:

Amersham and Marylebone
Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate
Watford Junction and Euston
Richmond and Stratford (via North London Line),
Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction (via West London Line)
Gospel Oak and Barking
Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale / Walthamstow Central, and Liverpool Street
Stratford and Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale
Stratford and Liverpool Street
Upminster and Fenchurch Street / Liverpool Street but not at Forest Gate or Maryland.
West Ruislip and South Ruislip
West Hampstead Thameslink and Elephant & Castle / London Bridge

If I'm following correctly, the bits I've highlighted in bold above seem to be saying that U-zone tickets are valid on some Overground lines - it seems to be those that follow the normal TfL fares scale for Oyster?

If that is correct then the sticking point seems to be only whether this only covers paper zonal tickets issued from London Underground machines, or also National Rail tickets issued to a U-zone destination?

 

[greatkingrat]

The current wording is

LU/DLR tickets valid on National Rail services

LU and DLR single & return paper tickets (including National Rail issued U-zone tickets), for which the appropriate zonal fare has been paid, are also valid on National Rail services between the following stations:

Amersham and Marylebone
Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate
Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park
Richmond and Gunnersbury
Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale / Walthamstow Central, and Liverpool Street
Stratford and Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale
Stratford and Liverpool Street
Upminster and Fenchurch Street / Liverpool Street but not at Forest Gate or Maryland.
West Ruislip and South Ruislip
West Hampstead Thameslink and Elephant & Castle / London Bridge

The following routes accept LU and DLR single & return paper tickets, but only where these have been issued by LU and DLR. National Rail stations should issue point-to-point tickets to these destinations:

Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction (via West London Line)
Gospel Oak and Barking
Gunnersbury and Stratford (via North London Line)
Queens Park and London Euston
Watford Junction and Harrow & Wealdstone

 

[Paul Kelly]

Thanks for the information, greatkingrat - that seems to clear it up then. Interesting that you can still use a U-zone ticket on the Lea Valley lines as far as the intersection with the Victoria Line, and not just on London Overground from/to Liverpool Street either - also on Greater Anglia from/to Stratford via Lea Bridge. I can't see how this could ever be really useful to the passenger though, unless there was a big anomaly somewhere.

Are there any changes to the list of Underground stretches where a point-to-point National Rail ticket have been used?