"Rip Off Britain" and Virgin Trains

[AlterEgo]

I still don't see why people should have to pay the whole price of their new ticket. Upgrade yes, and pay the (substantial) difference - but if they are not going to use the advance ticket why should it not be taken into consideration?

But this is exactly what changing an Advance ticket is! You pay the difference (if there is any) plus a fee of £10. You don't have to buy a whole new ticket.

 

[Llanigraham]

"...then moved the goalposts".
Well, if they were to be believed - and one must always take people at face value until proven otherwise - the goalposts were not moved at a whim.

It doesn't matter whether it was a whim or not, they moved the goalposts! :roll:

 

[Master29]

People should all do a bit of research on consumer law and realise that there are contracts to everything. These people are chancers. I hope Virgin stand their ground on this one. Always accepted the £10 situation and have used it many times.

 

[trainophile]

As a point of interest, I thought when changing an Advance ticket by way of the £10 admin charge, (a) it could only be changed for another ticket on the same route, and (b) at the price of available tickets on the required day.

If these people wanted to travel immediately then that would be the difference between their existing Advance and a walk-up, plus the £10 admin charge.

Is it permitted to do this on the same day that you now wish to travel? Even in the event that your intended train has already left its point of origin? Would a ticket clerk at the station be willing to do this?

I have only ever changed for dates beyond my existing ticket, never tried bringing it forward, so I'm not sure how this works.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I am aware it can be done at any time up to the departure of the first ticketed train from the origin on the ticket. After that it is forfeit.

Edit: it's the first reserved train. So if it is an unreserved connection that doesn't count.

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I wonder if that means that once the seats in those fare buckets have gone, then you'd either have to pay more to move to a higher fare bucket, or choose another service, a la airline tickets

Yes. Exactly as now, just no admin fee.


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[trainophile]

Thanks Neil. And can you do it at any ticket office, or would it have to be done through where you bought your ticket?

Unless it's the former, those of us who almost always use the same online website, realistically you wouldn't be able to organise a change less than a few days before your new travel date.

 

[Marklund]

Yes. Exactly as now, just no admin fee.

Thanks. I have never needed to change any of the few advance tickets I have bought.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks Neil. And can you do it at any ticket office, or would it have to be done through where you bought your ticket?

Unless it's the former, those of us who almost always use the same online website, realistically you wouldn't be able to organise a change less than a few days before your new travel date.

I *think* any ticket office, as it's done as an excess.

 

[AlterEgo]

I *think* any ticket office, as it's done as an excess.

Any ticket office as long as you have an orange paper ticket, yes.

 

[Bald Rick]

One wonders if the BBC would have been similarly interested had the same family turned up at Stansted with Ryanair tickets in hand wanting to fly a few days earlier than booked.

 

[Merseysider]

I *think* any ticket office, as it's done as an excess.

Yes, this is correct, but the ticket office would need to be one with access to the National Reservation System (NRS).

I can't think of any off the top of my head which don't, but it's possible there's some in the London area, and I recall having difficulty at a Merseyrail station a while ago too.

Although that may have just been due to the nature of the request, along with the fact that it's Merseyrail

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Meah. You pay the cheapest price, you accept the conditions.
Rail isn't alone in differing fare buckets, or pricing structure.

Book a Premier Inn at the Advance Purchase price, and see if you get the money back.

.

Exactly both premeir inn and travellodge provide an option to save a few pounds over and above the more flexible advance booking for a no refunds / no changes reservation ...

I forget what (if any fee) is charged for changing the slightly more expensive reservations

public (deliberate) misunderstannding of yield management is down to the way in which some parts of british society seem to revel in innumeracy and ant intellectualism

 

[fowler9]

Would they expect free petrol if making an unexpected journey in a car having got a cheap deal on the way down? I may have mentioned this before but working in a complaints department what some people expect for free whilst living in a capitalist economy is frankly unbelievable.

 

[gray1404]

Some of the best educated people I know seem to not want to learn the terms and conditions of the Advance ticket. I have a friend who is always complaining every time their son or daughter needs to change their advance ticket to a different train and ends up having to buy a walk up. They moan about their excuse but seem to switch off when you try to explain the rules concerning such tickets.

 

[Flying Snail]

It's just more special snowflake syndrome, everyone wants rules and regulations just not for themselves because they and their circumstances are exceptional.

It was that "Travel Expert" Simon Calder and his only argument was let them off because sob story "and what if they had died", as if Virgin Trains would somehow be partly responsible.

Link here, skip to 30min http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07z7kh4/rip-off-britain-2016-live-episode-4

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, this is correct, but the ticket office would need to be one with access to the National Reservation System (NRS).

I can't think of any off the top of my head which don't, but it's possible there's some in the London area, and I recall having difficulty at a Merseyrail station a while ago too.

Although that may have just been due to the nature of the request, along with the fact that it's Merseyrail

Pretty sure Merseyrail ticket offices have NRS access. They didn't used to years ago - Aughton Park used to have to phone Ormskirk to get reservations for APEX tickets in BR days.

Probably just a symptom of them not wanting really to be part of the national network at all.

 

[jon0844]

It's just more special snowflake syndrome, everyone wants rules and regulations just not for themselves because they and their circumstances are exceptional.

Ah, yes, generation snowflake.

Best thing about these people demanding the world and for everyone to listen to them is that want everything on a plate, freedom, no prejudice, priority treatment etc.

And then they demand that people get sacked for not helping them or locked up if not agreeing with their (often ridiculous) views etc.

It was better when we could moan only to a small audience, not the world via a viral YouTube video or rant on social media, that the mainstream media picks up on because it's easy news and generates some hits/views off the back of.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But this is exactly what changing an Advance ticket is! You pay the difference (if there is any) plus a fee of £10. You don't have to buy a whole new ticket.

I still can't help but wonder they were told they needed to buy a new ticket, and the minutiae of it wasn't explained to them.

These sort of arguments are often about the words we use. "Buy a new ticket" is bureaucratic and unhelpful. "Amend your ticket on payment of the fare difference" sounds helpful and useful. The cost for both is pretty much the same.

The £10 admin fee is nothing more than price-gouging though.

 

[misterredmist]

Ah, yes, generation snowflake.

Best thing about these people demanding the world and for everyone to listen to them is that want everything on a plate, freedom, no prejudice, priority treatment etc.

And then they demand that people get sacked for not helping them or locked up if not agreeing with their (often ridiculous) views etc.

It was better when we could moan only to a small audience, not the world via a viral YouTube video or rant on social media, that the mainstream media picks up on because it's easy news and generates some hits/views off the back of.

Very Good point , and sadly, it was a poor subject choice for a programme such as 'Rip-Off Britain'.........

 

[Bletchleyite]

The £10 admin fee is nothing more than price-gouging though.

If it goes well on XC I can see it being abolished across the board within a few years. With modern electronic systems there really not be any significant overhead for amending however many times you like.

 

[ejstubbs]

Does anyone seriously watch "Rip Off Britain"? I thought the Beeb ran it as a public service, allowing people with an exaggerated sense of entitlement to vent without having to bother anyone else. Basically, people who are too ghastly to be included on "Watchdog" get put on this programme instead. Isn't that why they broadcast it at the time they do?

Interestingly, most online sources I can find indicate that the colloquialism for a swindle or fraud is correctly written as "rip-off" or "ripoff". On that basis the programme's title "Rip Off Britain" could be read as an instruction...

IMO the phrase "Rip Off Britain" is a largely meaningless cliche, akin to "The Nanny State", "'Elf and Safety Gone Mad" and "Political Correctness Gone Mad", deployed by ignorant people incapable of logical analysis. They're basically used as an equivalent to "Waa! Not fair!!" by infantile idiots trying to disguise the fact that they have never managed to grow up.

 

[bramling]

Does anyone seriously watch "Rip Off Britain"? I thought the Beeb ran it as a public service, allowing people with an exaggerated sense of entitlement to vent without having to bother anyone else. Basically, people who are too ghastly to be included on "Watchdog" get put on this programme instead. Isn't that why they broadcast it at the time they do?

Interestingly, most online sources I can find indicate that the colloquialism for a swindle or fraud is correctly written as "rip-off" or "ripoff". On that basis the programme's title "Rip Off Britain" could be read as an instruction...

IMO the phrase "Rip Off Britain" is a largely meaningless cliché.

Agree with this. A lot of people fail to understand that price is determined by the interaction of supply and demand. In a country with a population size which is rapidly increasing, it shouldn't be any surprise that many things may be perceived as more expensive than they were in the past.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A lot of people fail to understand that price is determined by the interaction of supply and demand.

Not necessarily, and certainly not in sectors (like the railways) where there is a de facto monopoly.

We see this with Virgin Trains "peak time" trains that cart fresh air and "off peak" trains that have people wedged in each other's armpits for two hours. Understanding that getting one schmuck to cough up £200 is better than four paying £50 has nothing to do with neither demand nor supply in the traditional sense. It is all about a TOC artificially reducing supply by abusing a monopoly position.

A rip-off, in other words.

 

[MCR247]

Agree with this. A lot of people fail to understand that price is determined by the interaction of supply and demand. In a country with a population size which is rapidly increasing, it shouldn't be any surprise that many things may be perceived as more expensive than they were in the past.

I saw a viral post on Facebook the other day complaining to EMT about having to stand everyday on a morning peak Liverpool arrival. The complainant said she fully understood that EMT cant magic trains out of thin air, and therefore they should significantly reduce prices to make it fair, anyone see a flaw here...?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not necessarily, and certainly not in sectors (like the railways) where there is a de facto monopoly.

It isn't a monopoly. You're falling into that classic trap, as those who call for on-rail competition do as they completely ignore the rammed M1 and M6.

The railway is hit with heavy competition from all sides - the strongest of which is the car. Coaches and air also play a part.

The market is "intercity passenger travel", not "rail travel". Only those with a heavy fondness for rail travel - true of most here - will consider the train to the exclusion of all else.

 

[221129]

But this is exactly what changing an Advance ticket is! You pay the difference (if there is any) plus a fee of £10. You don't have to buy a whole new ticket.

Unless they just got on the train hoping to get away with it.

 

[timbo58]

Unless they just got on the train hoping to get away with it.

I don't think the people in question did this and credit to them for not doing so as
I positively hated it with the 'there's the situation YOU deal with it' attitude when I was a guard as it's invariably on a busy train with too many passengers as it already was!

Anyway the company's representative DID use their discretion -they considered what they could reasonably do and said NO.

Discretion isn't always saying YES, it's considering what options you have to resolve an issue whilst being able to justify that to your employer, shareholders and other customers.

Clearly allowing multiple people to just rock up and use a completely different service to the one originally booked (which is ostensibly discounted so much so the TOC could then balance out traffic flows) on 'token' fares a tiny fraction of more flexible tickets was not acceptable.

Frankly 'rip off Britain' annoys me since you can pick any episode at random and I guarantee at least half of the alleged 'rip-offs' are nothing of the sort, this devalues the entire programme IMHO.

Too many people feel they can shout scam/con/rip off (and some more blatant legal words for that matter) all over social media/general press and get away with it whilst unfairly besmirching the (good or otherwise) name of any size of company going about it's legally correct business and all because they (the customer) doesn't want to stick to their side of the contract.

Perhaps it's time someone was taken to court for libellous comments?

 

[Seacook]

Interestingly, most online sources I can find indicate that the colloquialism for a swindle or fraud is correctly written as "rip-off" or "ripoff". On that basis the programme's title "Rip Off Britain" could be read as an instruction...

The OED lists the noun as rip-off with rip off and ripoff as alternatives. The verb is rip off - writing 'I have been rip-offed' rather than 'ripped off' would be most unusual.

 

[cjmillsnun]

So they bought the advance tickets, receiving a pretty hefty discount in return for being tied down, and then moved the goalposts.

That's a risk you take if you buy an advance.

Why should the TOC waive the rules for them? Otherwise no one would ever need to buy a walk-up priced ticket.

With Virgin on this one, 100%.

(Having said that I'm not a fan of the concept of advance tickets, if I had my way they would be abolished).

If you had your way, many people wouldn't travel by train. Don't expect walk up fares to drop if advances are abolished.

 

[HowardGWR]

I was surprised to hear Calder was involved. I find that he is a great promoter of rail and a knowledgeable journalist.