Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[bnm]

I have read all 408 pages with interest and I have come to the conclusion that a minority of people who clearly couldn't care less what happens to the Guards. Then a middle ground that most people here seem to be which is can't stop GTR doing what they want to (with the DaFT's help) and then the people who work in the industry like myself who sees on a daily basis why Guards are needed. Safety will be corroded and peoples lives are wrecked but thats ok because it has happened to me/them/my brothers cousins friend. Some of the enthusiasts here do not care about the railway they care about their ego well to the minority of them hope your ego is in great shape because peoples lives have been flushed down the toilet. My time up north will come eventually just like eventually there will be an incident on a DOO service that lives are lost because of the lack of a guard. But then that will be too late. I am saddened by the responses from a minority of people (and I use that term loosely) on here and my heart goes out to my colleagues down south. Whatever happens Colleagues everywhere will give you their support.

I too have followed this thread from the very start. Read all the hyperbole and contributed some of own hyperbole. Got in trouble with the mods over some posts and not since bothered to add my opinion. Nice to see that hyperbole continues though.

No jobs lost for the life of the franchise, no cuts in pay and a nice fat bonus for going on strike. Well done RMT. Your DOO arguments were deeply flawed but you've extracted a pound of flesh which you will no doubt crow about.

But now the battle is almost over, with the RMT on the losing side (as I always said it would be), I'm just glad that the long suffering GTR commuters will perhaps now be able to once again rely on the train service in GTR land.

 

[JamesTT]

There has been a number of times where TOC's have been caught out with cancellations due to staffing levels. If you look through this forum there are a number of threads about TOC's relying on overtime and how ludicrous it is.

It's cheaper to pay overtime than employ a functional level of staffing.

Remind me what happened to Southern recently where overtime was banned and even when it was reinstated there was little to no staff volunteering to work.

Shift swaps and paying people in excess of the hours they were working was banned not a blanket ban on overtime
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So are Southern now going to fill vacant posts with the long term unemployed?

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I didn't suggest they would I was saying they might not be particular sympathetic to the situation of those becoming OBS
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So are Southern now going to fill vacant posts with the long term unemployed?

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I didn't suggest they would I was saying they might not be particular sympathetic to the situation of those becoming OBS

 

[embers25]

I too have followed this thread from the very start. Read all the hyperbole and contributed some of own hyperbole. Got in trouble with the mods over some posts and not since bothered to add my opinion. Nice to see that hyperbole continues though.

No jobs lost for the life of the franchise, no cuts in pay and a nice fat bonus for going on strike. Well done RMT. Your DOO arguments were deeply flawed but you've extracted a pound of flesh which you will no doubt crow about.

But now the battle is almost over, with the RMT on the losing side (as I always said it would be), I'm just glad that the long suffering GTR commuters will perhaps now be able to once again rely on the train service in GTR land.

Sadly the Scottish Government caved (Typical labour...I mean SNP...not much difference really) before DfT as otherwise Abellio and GTR togther forcing this through may have finally put the nail in the RMT and union in general coffin.

 

[ungreat]

I have read all 408 pages with interest and I have come to the conclusion that a minority of people who clearly couldn't care less what happens to the Guards. Then a middle ground that most people here seem to be which is can't stop GTR doing what they want to (with the DaFT's help) and then the people who work in the industry like myself who sees on a daily basis why Guards are needed. Safety will be corroded and peoples lives are wrecked but thats ok because it has happened to me/them/my brothers cousins friend. Some of the enthusiasts here do not care about the railway they care about their ego well to the minority of them hope your ego is in great shape because peoples lives have been flushed down the toilet. My time up north will come eventually just like eventually there will be an incident on a DOO service that lives are lost because of the lack of a guard. But then that will be too late. I am saddened by the responses from a minority of people (and I use that term loosely) on here and my heart goes out to my colleagues down south. Whatever happens Colleagues everywhere will give you their support.

Here here brother.The Guards have been sold down the river.Not going to go into details but my company have offered a comitted RDW agreement to Drivers to sweeten the blow of training extra drivers to cover training..Doubtless this funding has come from them having extra money from removing the Guards/conductors.I have refused this extra money in support of my Southern Guards Colleagues but many wont.

 

[GadgetMan]

Sadly the Scottish Government caved (Typical labour...I mean SNP...not much difference really) before DfT as otherwise Abellio and GTR togther forcing this through may have finally put the nail in the RMT and union in general coffin.

Southern was an easy target as the Drivers already work DOO. The majority of railway staff in the industry are pretty peed off with the way our colleagues have been treated down there. The DFT will not get such an easy ride when it comes knocking on 100% Guard worked TOCs. This was a very small battle in a big war that's yet to come.

 

[grumblingalong]

It is a shame it has ended this way and indeed caused so much pain for everybody involved en-route. We will see in a few years how things pan out, but I am certain this will eventually further severely damage the on board service offered on the affected routes.

What it has done has successfully raised the profile of the issue and I hope put other operators off dealing with the issue in the same way, they should all be much more open and fair when dealing with the situation in the future, which I believe was the real aim of the RMT.

As for those of you crowing of the death of the unions, you'll never manage that while I'm still standing.

I look forward to things returning to some kind of normality on this forum, without the frankly nasty left/right battle that has engulfed particularly this thread.

 

[Robertj21a]

Southern was an easy target as the Drivers already work DOO. The majority of railway staff in the industry are pretty peed off with the way our colleagues have been treated down there. The DFT will not get such an easy ride when it comes knocking on 100% Guard worked TOCs. This was a very small battle in a big war that's yet to come.

I'm assuming that, after the Southern 'success' it will be increasingly difficult to argue the point about doors/safety. No doubt the DfT will incorporate it in every future franchise, so will the operator receiving the franchise believe that the basic framework is now in place ?.

 

[infobleep]

I didn't suggest they would I was saying they might not be particular sympathetic to the situation of those becoming OBS
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well if they wish to be some caring and making a point that there really are people who are long term. Unemployed and really would do anything for a job, they should go ahead and employ them. If they wouldn't do that then it shows their argument isn't great. I admit though it's your argument and not theirs.

One can't say there's lots of people who love to have your job but then not wish to employ any of them.

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[grumblingalong]

I'm assuming that, after the Southern 'success' it will be increasingly difficult to argue the point about doors/safety. No doubt the DfT will incorporate it in every future franchise, so will the operator receiving the franchise believe that the basic framework is now in place ?.

As GadgetMan said it will be much more difficult for TOCs without a DOO agreement in place with the drivers. We have seen what disruption the strikes caused when some routes were stopped due to the guards walking out, imagine nothing London Midland operated (for example as it seems to be the next one lined up) running at all.

Brave/Stupid company that does that.

 

[ungreat]

Except that in this role it's impossible to take a course at night since we're often at work or asleep when the course is on. Same with a morning course. Saturday course. You get the picture. How many in house courses do you think guards are offered?

We're paid well. I don't know if this is necessarily true but it's always seemed to me that's partly because of the limits on our free time and developing any routines in that free time. We can't upskill ourselves very easily. We do have transferrable skills but at the same time work in a pretty niche role and anyone hiring outside the industry is possibly not going to understand our skills as well as they'd understand someone from a more mainstream industry.

Those things above are not unique to the guard's role or to the industry, before I get jumped on, but it was undeniably easier for me to access internal and external training in a mon-fri, 9-5 more traditional, common role.

They know **** all apart from Daily Wail /The Sun crap/Government/manipulated figures etc lies and anti union crud and "WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD" IS TRUE.They dont have a clue how the railway runs and never will
Ive now been working DOO for a long time....yes its safe...but safer with 2 safety critical staff on board.When I see an RPI waiting at a station I breathe a BIG sigh of relief.Theres someone else there

 

[infobleep]

As GadgetMan said it will be much more difficult for TOCs without a DOO agreement in place with the drivers. We have seen what disruption the strikes caused when some routes were stopped due to the guards walking out, imagine nothing London Midland operated (for example as it seems to be the next one lined up) running at all.

Brave/Stupid company that does that.

What happens if the next franchise specification says no guards. How do they resolve it once the franchise is awarded?

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[GadgetMan]

I'm assuming that, after the Southern 'success' it will be increasingly difficult to argue the point about doors/safety. No doubt the DfT will incorporate it in every future franchise, so will the operator receiving the franchise believe that the basic framework is now in place ?.

Neither union has conceded the safety argument. The RSSB has prostituted itself off to the DFT and TOCs and dances to their instructions so can no longer be relied on as the safery standards board.

Unfortunately this now means the rulebook will continue to be watered down every 6 months with TOCs financial interests being put before passenger safety. As a number of posters in this thread have supported; a few more injuries/deaths here and there is a price worth paying for the greater (financial) good.

 

[bb21]

As GadgetMan said it will be much more difficult for TOCs without a DOO agreement in place with the drivers. We have seen what disruption the strikes caused when some routes were stopped due to the guards walking out, imagine nothing London Midland operated (for example as it seems to be the next one lined up) running at all.

Brave/Stupid company that does that.

Agreed.

Industrial action by drivers will be far more damaging, and no TOC will be willing to take that on without full backing from DfT to bend the rules and ignore existing targets.

Interesting times ahead.

 

[grumblingalong]

What happens if the next franchise specification says no guards. How do they resolve it once the franchise is awarded?

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By my understanding, not that I'm an expert in employment law, when a new franchise takes over all staff are "tuped" over on their existing contracts so new ones would have to be arranged, with all the uproar we have seen on Southern, which is why I think it won't happen elsewhere, much to the upset of some on here.

Note however it's not "no guards on this franchise" he DfT asks bidders to suggest "innovative on board customer services solutions" or "investigate operating procedures to best balance customer experience and operational resilience".

 

[GadgetMan]

"investigate operating procedures to best balance customer experience and operational resilience".

Had the Southern dispute ended better with a DCO agreement where the Drivers release doors and Guards lock them reducing dwell time marginally then I think other TOCs would have benefitted from negotiating a similar agreement slightly increasing efficiency and retaining a fully trained Guard on board.

However I can't see us Drivers budging an inch now when it comes to Door control, as once we agree to release doors the courts will rule "you're happy to operate the controls already so you can lock the doors too...."

Time to dig in and give Wilkinson the War he wanted on 'his' railway. Can't speak for others but I've got atleast 6 months worth of wages in savings so I'd happily go on a 6 month continuous strike should the need arise, hopefully others will be preparing similarly.

 

[ungreat]

Neither union has conceded the safety argument. The RSSB has prostituted itself off to the DFT and TOCs and dances to their instructions so can no longer be relied on as the safery standards board.

Unfortunately this now means the rulebook will continue to be watered down every 6 months with TOCs financial interests being put before passenger safety. As a number of posters in this thread have supported; a few more injuries/deaths here and there is a price worth paying for the greater (financial) good.

Exactly said.Expect more safety issues to be disregarded soon too. Thanks DFT for destroying our railways safety for profit to line your Tory pockets. A train driver
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Had the Southern dispute ended better with a DCO agreement where the Drivers release doors and Guards lock them reducing dwell time marginally then I think other TOCs would have benefitted from negotiating a similar agreement slightly increasing efficiency and retaining a fully trained Guard on board.

However I can't see us Drivers budging an inch now when it comes to Door control, as once we agree to release doors the courts will rule "you're happy to operate the controls already so you can lock the doors too...."

Time to dig in and give Wilkinson the War he wanted on 'his' railway. Can't speak for others but I've got atleast 6 months worth of wages in savings so I'd happily go on a 6 month continuous strike should the need arise, hopefully others will be preparing similarly.

Count me in brother

 

[JamesTT]

Had the Southern dispute ended better with a DCO agreement where the Drivers release doors and Guards lock them reducing dwell time marginally then I think other TOCs would have benefitted from negotiating a similar agreement slightly increasing efficiency and retaining a fully trained Guard on board.

However I can't see us Drivers budging an inch now when it comes to Door control, as once we agree to release doors the courts will rule "you're happy to operate the controls already so you can lock the doors too...."

Time to dig in and give Wilkinson the War he wanted on 'his' railway. Can't speak for others but I've got atleast 6 months worth of wages in savings so I'd happily go on a 6 month continuous strike should the need arise, hopefully others will be preparing similarly.

Time to hold the traveling public and country to ransom is how the tabloids will report that

 

[ungreat]

Time to hold the traveling public and country to ransom is how the tabloids will report that

And you also it seems you have a
problem with people standing up for their working rights?

 

[AlexNL]

Had the Southern dispute ended better with a DCO agreement where the Drivers release doors and Guards lock them reducing dwell time marginally then I think other TOCs would have benefitted from negotiating a similar agreement slightly increasing efficiency and retaining a fully trained Guard on board.

However I can't see us Drivers budging an inch now when it comes to Door control, as once we agree to release doors the courts will rule "you're happy to operate the controls already so you can lock the doors too...."

Mind you that "driver releases, guard closes" is already common practice on the continent. Here in the Netherlands, doors are released exclusively by the driver - the guard panels don't even have buttons for door release. The same applies to Belgium and I think Germany operates in a similar manner.

 

[Carlisle]

Had the Southern dispute ended better with a DCO agreement where the Drivers release doors and Guards lock them reducing dwell time marginally .

If youd followed this thread you'd realise this is exactly the method Southern have used since Electrostars entered service 14 years ago anyway

 

[GadgetMan]

If youd followed this thread you'd realise this is exactly the method Southern have used since Electrostars entered service 14 years ago anyway

I know, the same agreement should've been reached for the new trains entering service.

 

[XDM]

Mind you that "driver releases, guard closes" is already common practice on the continent. Here in the Netherlands, doors are released exclusively by the driver - the guard panels don't even have buttons for door release. The same applies to Belgium and I think Germany operates in a similar manner.

And that argument will be deployed in the national media by the TOCs if ASLEF, & members with 6 month war chests, go on strike over drivers being asked to release the doors. There are battles drivers should build up a war chest for,but door release is not one of them. ASLEF's success comes from choosing it's high profile battles carefully.

 

[infobleep]

And that argument will be deployed in the national media by the TOCs if ASLEF, & members with 6 month war chests, go on strike over drivers being asked to release the doors. There are battles drivers should build up a war chest for,but door release is not one of them. ASLEF's success comes from choosing it's high profile battles carefully.

If you were working for ASLEF, which high profile battle would you choose to flight?

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[JamesTT]

And you also it seems you have a
problem with people standing up for their working rights?

You will be surprised to read that no I don't but this whole argument has been done in such a way that it plays into the hands of such people.

Strikes should have been the only disruption. Guards should have risen above the sick pay ploy.

They should have made a hundred % effort on the shifts they did work. Sorry but I know for a fact they didn't.

I did back of a fag packet maths but I think my posts regards how much having a conductor on a train were valid and the RMT and ASLEF should have pushed the fact that having the 2nd safety qualified person only cost Xp per passenger per journey on average, surely this is worth it.

 

[swt_passenger]

I know, the same agreement should've been reached for the new trains entering service.

There aren't any new types of trains entering service with Southern. Recent discussions about new trains in the area directly affect Gatwick Express and a Thameslink, but not Southern.

 

[GadgetMan]

And that argument will be deployed in the national media by the TOCs if ASLEF, & members with 6 month war chests, go on strike over drivers being asked to release the doors. There are battles drivers should build up a war chest for,but door release is not one of them. ASLEF's success comes from choosing it's high profile battles carefully.

Unfortunately, if you give an inch.......

 

[bnm]

Had the Southern dispute ended better with a DCO agreement where the Drivers release doors and Guards lock them reducing dwell time marginally then I think other TOCs would have benefitted from negotiating a similar agreement slightly increasing efficiency and retaining a fully trained Guard on board.

However I can't see us Drivers budging an inch now when it comes to Door control, as once we agree to release doors the courts will rule "you're happy to operate the controls already so you can lock the doors too...."

Time to dig in and give Wilkinson the War he wanted on 'his' railway. Can't speak for others but I've got atleast 6 months worth of wages in savings so I'd happily go on a 6 month continuous strike should the need arise, hopefully others will be preparing similarly.

Good luck to you and your 'brothers' with that deeply irresponsible course of action. ASLEF backing you are they?

 

[Phil.]

The fact is that the R.M.T. lost the plot. In the opening skirmishes they went rattling on about safety - and continued to. Bad move as D.O.O. has been in operation for thirty years with no less safety than Guards on trains, figures bear this out. They should have opened on customer service but they brought that in too late. They wanted a guarantee of jobs - no employer can and will do that. Just like Scargill they could neither (apparently) see or acknowledge the obvious but kept on fighting a lost cause seemingly oblivious to the amount of money that "their" members were losing. Like lemmings, the Guards followed them. Now, after losing "their" members thousands in lost wages and the opportunity for a £2,000 bonus they've admitted defeat. It was a foregone conclusion. I stated so at the very beginning of this dispute and said that there will be no real winners and there will be nasty tastes in collective mouths. The union leaders will still get their salaries, none of them have lost anything but the Guards have lost any goodwill (the management didn't have any but they don't care) and sympathy. All the R.M.T had to do was to sit around a table and agree that the traditional Guard's job was finished and negotiate at least a job on the trains at no loss of salary guaranteed for the remainder of the franchise and....but that's what was on offer.
The Guards have been stitched up like a kipper by their own representatives and probably still don't realise it or won't acknowledge it.
Unions can be great and necessary - rates of pay - leave - conditions etc. But union leaders should never ever lose sight of the fact that they are also there to protect and retain, not to engage in wars with management that loses "their" members both goodwill and money that will never be re-acquired.

 

[sarahj]

It's always been interesting reading this thread esp as I am on the front line. There are things I could add, lies fixed, but as many of you know I'm very limited in what I can say on here.

But on an interesting note. I hear DOO test trains heading into SWT went well. I cannot give details, but the words fart and spacesuit comes to mind.

 

[455refurb]

The fact is that the R.M.T. lost the plot. In the opening skirmishes they went rattling on about safety - and continued to. Bad move as D.O.O. has been in operation for thirty years with no less safety than Guards on trains, figures bear this out. They should have opened on customer service but they brought that in too late. They wanted a guarantee of jobs - no employer can and will do that. Just like Scargill they could neither (apparently) see or acknowledge the obvious but kept on fighting a lost cause seemingly oblivious to the amount of money that "their" members were losing. Like lemmings, the Guards followed them. Now, after losing "their" members thousands in lost wages and the opportunity for a £2,000 bonus they've admitted defeat. It was a foregone conclusion. I stated so at the very beginning of this dispute and said that there will be no real winners and there will have be nasty tastes in collective mouths. The union leaders will still get their salaries, none of them have lost anything but the Guards have lost any goodwill (the management didn't have any but they don't care) and sympathy. All the R.M.T had to do was to sit around a table and agree that the traditional Guard's job was finished and negotiate at least a job on the trains at no loss of salary guaranteed for the remainder of the franchise and....but that's what was on offer.
The Guards have been stitched up like a kipper by their own representatives and probably still don't realise it or won't acknowledge it.
Unions can be great and necessary - rates of pay - leave - conditions etc. But union leaders should never ever lose sight of the fact that they are also there to protect and retain, not to engage in wars with management that loses "their" members both goodwill and money that will never be re-acquired.

Well said. It was an unwinnable fight from the start. When faced with such a situation, the collective bargaining becomes about obtaining the best deal possible for members. The so-called "best deal which can be achieved through negotiation". That, in my view, was GTR's final offer - which the RMT turned down on Thursday. In such a situation (subject to process in the recognition agreement) the employer will move to impose and that imposition will take any form the employer wishes. In not admitting defeat and accepting the deal on Thursday, the poor guards have been left high and dry by their own union.

The RMT have handled this very poorly. All the talk of a "basket case franchise" and "sending profits to France" etc in press releases. Well, it's not a typical franchise is it... why weren't they educating the public on this, the safety issues, the impact on disabled travelers, and so on, right from the start? If they were ever to win they needed to rally support from outside the union and in my view they failed to do that. If I were an RMT member I'd be doing some pretty serious contemplating about my future with the union at this point.