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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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LNW-GW Joint

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That looks like it is a selected part of a brief asking the RSSB to carry out evaluation work on various aspects of DOO.
It doesn't look like any kind of RSSB statement on DOO.
It probably came from the DfT or possibly ORR or RDG.
The business case quoted is what has been understood for 30 years.
 
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GadgetMan

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Here's one of the new changes to the Rule Book coming in December:

25.2 When in service
This has been renamed ‘Entering service from somewhere other than a maintenance depot’. ‘When in service’ is now section 25.3. A train or traction unit can now also enter service from somewhere other than a maintenance depot with a defective radio in any cab that is required to be driven from, as long as permission has been given to proceed as far as a location where transportable or portable GSM-R radio equipment can be provided, or to complete a journey. A train or traction unit can also enter service if there is a radio network failure but the driver may be told not to allow the train to exceed 100 mph (160 km/h) or 60 mph (100 km/h).
‘When in service’ now covers the fact that a train or traction unit can now also stay in service with a defective radio in the cab that is being driven from, as long as permission has been given to proceed as far as a location where transportable or portable GSM-R radio equipment can be provided, or to complete a journey. A train or traction unit can stay in service if there is a radio network failure but the driver may be told not to allow the train to exceed 100 mph (160 km/h) or 60 mph (100 km/h).

With the RSSB now doing the job of bean counters who put cost before safety, I suspect the RAIB will have plenty more recommendations to make following some very predictable incidents to come.

If the derailed train in the Watford incident had been in service with a known faulty GSMR radio in leading cab the outcome would have been much worse. With this new RSSB way of thinking we are definitely watering down our High Safety Standards.
 

74A

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This extract from an apparent RSSB report has been doing the rounds on Twitter. If genuinue is it something that the Rail Safety and Standards Board should be talking about?
rssb%20report.jpg-large.jpg

As other posters have said its an extract from a research paper about DOO. I assume the DfT asked them to research DOO so really not surprising they did so.

What it does explain is why there has been very limited extension of DOO since privatisation as the payback takes about 20 years and most franchises are 7-10 years.

However now they are being written in franchise agreements then they will happen. Like on GTR and also now to happen on Northern.

As the article says the best way to get money savings is to make guards redundant and allowing them to stay on at there current wages takes much longer to get the savings. So it looks like the RMT have helped to get the saving quicker by refusing to negotiate and now the guards are going to be made redundant.
 

HH

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We have a Driver manager who in reality is a nice chap..but has never worked on a train ever in any way shape or form.To me as a 30 years footplateman he simply isn't fit for the job.

It depends somewhat on what the job of the Driver Manager is - I'm presuming here that there is a separate Manager who deals with competency, etc. Still, I do think that there's a huge advantage if you've done the job yourself, and that applies to managers everywhere.
 

Carlisle

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So it looks like the RMT have helped to get the saving quicker by refusing to negotiate and now the guards are going to be made redundant.
The countywide DOO battles are far from over or won yet, remember it wasn't any particular increase in safety concerns that suddenly won the RMT victory in Scotland , it was pretty much all down to Scotrail/Transport Scotland not wanting the inconvenience or expense of another 10-20 days strike action plus the worry ASLEF might also have joined in at some point too
 
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northwichcat

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Like on GTR and also now to happen on Northern.

While some people argue DOO and DCO are the same thing, the Northern franchise agreement states there must be a non-driving member of franchise staff on all services and that passenger safety will be part of their job role, alongside revenue duties even though the latter is the main reason for the inclusion of DCO in the agreement.

Govia may have done Arriva a favour now that the RMT knows what could happen if they refuse to compromise, like they have done with Southern. Having a job and a guard's salary guaranteed for at least the next 5 years in exchange for accepting the drivers can do the door duties must sound like a good deal now! I wonder how the older guards, who would have retired before there were any compulsory redundancies, feel now. If I was in their position I don't think I'd be renewing any union membership.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The countywide DOO battles are far from over or won yet, remember it wasn't a particular increase in safety concerns that suddenly won the RMT victory in Scotland , it was pretty much all down to Scotrail/Transport Scotland not wanting the inconvenience or expense of another 10-20 days of strike action plus the worry ASLEF may also have joined in at some point toon

It seems strange in a way the battle was between the RMT (over the role of guards) and Southern.

The guards were effectively striking over one of their duties being transferred to other staff. Unofficially, I think the RMT called industrial action because they thought there was a risk the next franchise wouldn't keep the guards in employment but if they used that reason as their official reason for a strike it would be illegal (as you can only take industrial action against your current employer) and Govia would be allowed to sack striking guards for breach of contract.

On the other hand they'll be more work to do for Southern drivers and ASLEF have been fairly quiet since saying drivers should refuse to take out 12 car Turbostar workings if they are DOO for safety reasons, which backfired in court.
 

tsr

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While some people argue DOO and DCO are the same thing, the Northern franchise agreement states there must be a non-driving member of franchise staff on all services and that passenger safety will be part of their job role, alongside revenue duties even though the latter is the main reason for the inclusion of DCO in the agreement.

The issue comes when that second non-driving role can no longer reasonably be defined as one which carries out the actions of a "guard" in Rule Book parlance. There isn't much real middle ground* between an OBS-type figure and someone performing the technical role of a guard (including with a different title like "conductor", as always the case on Southern for a good number of years). And once the company operates either some or all of its trains in driver-only format, although they may specify that a second member of staff either should be or must be present for the train to run, that second role is watered down because it is no longer part of the reaction to a worst-case scenario which, in my eyes, is a true fundamental of the existence of a conductor/guard.

In fact I would say that the actions of a guard in an emergency are equally important to the day-to-day task of keeping the peace and providing a visible presence onboard; my opinion is that it is not prudent to halve the number of onboard staff performing Rule Book roles (in other words, properly documented and quantifiable roles) per number of passengers, especially when they can - and are obliged to - react to a train accident which, though incredibly rare nowadays, is the sort of thing that happens at unpredictable times, on a network where that half of the prior onboard staff complement will now be in the crumple zone/at the sharp end, yet still responsible for up to ~1200 people.

*Yes, I know there are mentions of "competent" people in the Rule Book. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't. That description is not some middle ground between conductor and OBS.

Govia may have done Arriva a favour now that the RMT knows what could happen if they refuse to compromise, like they have done with Southern. Having a job and a guard's salary guaranteed for at least the next 5 years in exchange for accepting the drivers can do the door duties must sound like a good deal now!

But this wasn't exactly the point. The door duties issue has been drifting around with the whole "removal of a guard" issue but the real point with the latter is that there is a loss of a competent safety-critical member of staff onboard, required for each service to run, who could have been there whether or not operating the doors. Indeed there are networks where traditional conductors/guards are rostered to be onboard the train but do not control the doors for part of the journey; trains running on Southeastern's mainline (not HS1) routes in the London area are available as an example for comparison.

Relinquishing control of the doors would not really have assisted in negotiations. What would have assisted is relinquishing the requirement for a second person to be on board who is trained to perform the role of the guard. This is what GTR have forced through now. Conductors (guards) will no longer perform that role, though they will keep their salaries. I can well imagine this is justified - for the time being - by now being able to be more flexibly rostered, and by the savings from the train not having to wait for them, in order to run.

I wonder how the older guards, who would have retired before there were any compulsory redundancies, feel now.

I'm not 100% sure whether this is a comment focusing on those who carried on despite being able to retire. But what I would say is that all Southern conductors, irrespective of age, seniority in service, etc., have been offered the chance to discuss voluntary severance and various combinations of what could be provided at the end of service with GTR, as per eligibility.

If I was in their position I don't think I'd be renewing any union membership.

It's quite interesting to see the different stances conductors have taken with this. Some are still sticking with the RMT in the hope that they will at least continue to provide some form of representation in other ways (eg. collective bargaining) or because, for the time being, they already do. They see this as the best way to put forward opinion even if the OBS role has been pushed through. Others have given up on the RMT for a number of reasons - the strategies for the length and timing of both negotiations and the strikes, or not wishing to be involved in what has become an increasingly bitter political battle, which has spilt over and become some extremely confrontational behaviour (I won't elaborate, but I suggest it is likely that some "interesting" revelations about the relationships between striking and non-striking members of the workforce may emerge in the long run).

It seems strange in a way the battle was between the RMT (over the role of guards) and Southern.

The guards were effectively striking over one of their duties being transferred to other staff.

That was never the reason given to me by those who took strike action. The much bigger issues in the dispute have been job security and relevance of the traditional presence of a guard in emergencies.

Unofficially, I think the RMT called industrial action because they thought there was a risk the next franchise wouldn't keep the guards in employment but if they used that reason as their official reason for a strike it would be illegal (as you can only take industrial action against your current employer) and Govia would be allowed to sack striking guards for breach of contract.

The next franchise holder may as well, at this stage, be imaginary. Indeed it could speculatively be more than one future franchise holder, dependent on areas served. Industrial action against any imaginary future employer would not just be potentially in breach of regulations but also patently absurd. The strike action has been against the current employer, and, by extension, the relevant government bodies specifying what they've had to do, because of the fact that it is no longer deemed necessary to specify the conductor workforce to be present on 377s. This is happening right now, not in the next franchise. And, right now, because of this, trains are starting to run in a mode where it is not mandatory to have someone onboard who is trained as a guard. This means that in the event of money mysteriously not being found, recruitment for new onboard roles does not have to take place as part of an operational need to cover vacancies, because the same train service can run anyway.

On the other hand they'll be more work to do for Southern drivers and ASLEF have been fairly quiet since saying drivers should refuse to take out 12 car Turbostar workings if they are DOO for safety reasons, which backfired in court.

Point of order: you're thinking of 12 coach Electrostars. Turbostars on Southern run at a maximum of 10 coach formations and a conductor is mandatory.
 
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Robertj21a

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The issue comes when that second non-driving role can no longer reasonably be defined as one which carries out the actions of a "guard" in Rule Book parlance. There isn't much real middle ground* between an OBS-type figure and someone performing the technical role of a guard (including with a different title like "conductor", as always the case on Southern for a good number of years). And once the company operates either some or all of its trains in driver-only format, although they may specify that a second member of staff either should be or must be present for the train to run, that second role is watered down because it is no longer part of the reaction to a worst-case scenario which, in my eyes, is a true fundamental of the existence of a conductor/guard.

In fact I would say that the actions of a guard in an emergency are equally important to the day-to-day task of keeping the peace and providing a visible presence onboard; my opinion is that it is not prudent to halve the number of onboard staff performing Rule Book roles (in other words, properly documented and quantifiable roles) per number of passengers, especially when they can - and are obliged to - react to a train accident which, though incredibly rare nowadays, is the sort of thing that happens at unpredictable times, on a network where that half of the prior onboard staff complement will now be in the crumple zone/at the sharp end, yet still responsible for up to ~1200 people.

*Yes, I know there are mentions of "competent" people in the Rule Book. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't. That description is not some middle ground between conductor and OBS.



But this wasn't exactly the point. The door duties issue has been drifting around with the whole "removal of a guard" issue but the real point with the latter is that there is a loss of a competent safety-critical member of staff onboard, required for each service to run, who could have been there whether or not operating the doors. Indeed there are networks where traditional conductors/guards are rostered to be onboard the train but do not control the doors for either some or part of the journey; trains running on Southeastern's mainline (not HS1) routes in the London area are available as an example for comparison.

Relinquishing control of the doors would not really have assisted in negotiations. What would have assisted is relinquishing the requirement for a second person to be on board who is trained to perform the role of the guard. This is what GTR have forced through now. Conductors (guards) will no longer perform that role, though they will keep their salaries. I can well imagine this is justified - for the time being - by now being able to be more flexibly rostered, and by the savings from the train not having to wait for them, in order to run.



I'm not 100% sure whether this is a comment focusing on those who carried on despite being able to retire. But what I would say is that all Southern conductors, irrespective of age, seniority in service, etc., have been offered the chance to discuss voluntary severance and various combinations of what could be provided at the end of service with GTR, as per eligibility.



It's quite interesting to see the different stances conductors have taken with this. Some are still sticking with the RMT in the hope that they will at least continue to provide some form of representation in other ways (eg. collective bargaining) or because, for the time being, they already do. They see this as the best way to put forward opinion even if the OBS role has been pushed through. Others have given up on the RMT for a number of reasons - the strategies for the length and timing of both negotiations and the strikes, or not wishing to be involved in what has become an increasingly bitter political battle, which has spilt over and become some extremely confrontational behaviour (I won't elaborate, but I suggest it is likely that some "interesting" revelations about the relationships between striking and non-striking members of the workforce may emerge in the long run).



That was never the reason given to me by those who took strike action. The much bigger issues in the dispute have been job security and relevance of the traditional presence of a guard in emergencies.



The next franchise holder may as well, at this stage, be imaginary. Indeed it could speculatively be more than one future franchise holder, dependent on areas served. Industrial action against any imaginary future employer would not just be potentially in breach of regulations but also patently absurd. The strike action has been against the current employer, and, by extension, the relevant government bodies specifying what they've had to do, because of the fact that it is no longer deemed necessary to specify the conductor workforce to be present on 377s. This is happening right now, not in the next franchise. And, right now, because of this, trains are starting to run in a mode where it is not mandatory to have someone onboard who is trained as a guard. This means that in the event of money mysteriously not being found, recruitment for new onboard roles does not have to take place as part of an operational need to cover vacancies, because the same train service can run anyway.



Point of order: you're thinking of 12 coach Electrostars. Turbostars on Southern run at a maximum of 10 coach formations and a conductor is mandatory.


Thanks for all that, very helpful. I'm sure that many of us just wish that the DOO issue had been wholeheartedly focused on the safety issues (rather than the doors) right from the outset. It's a great shame that the RMT missed that key point.
 

SPADTrap

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If the derailed train in the Watford incident had been in service with a known faulty GSMR radio in leading cab the outcome would have been much worse. With this new RSSB way of thinking we are definitely watering down our High Safety Standards.

Which is why I'll refuse and walk away if I'm EVER asked to carry out that instruction! Regardless of what the book 'allows'. Control and the RSSB can get themselves a Train Driving licence and take it themselves! If the portable equipment can't be provided beforehand it doesn't go, the equipment can be brought to the unit before it's put into service.

The December '15 amendments were met with a lot of surprise at our place, put it that way.
 
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Fincra5

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I believe at Selhurst all of the Guards are staying as Guards? But at Barnham / Brighton / Eastbourne i believe that only some of them will stay as Guards (for the 171/313) while others will become OBS?

As far as I know...

for 171's, 313's and the 4x 442 services a day (Brighton Crew).
 
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The difference here between Scortrail and Southern is the franchise, or lack of in Southerns case.
Southern is unique in the way it is contracted to Govia to run. The RMT are never going to win Southern. But the rest of the TOC's might be a different story.
 

Bishopstone

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There was an OBS on the Gatwick Express I caught this evening, doing a good job, which reminded me how much more civilised rail travel is with a visible member of on-train staff.

A couple had taken seats in first class with standard tickets: the guy telling the girl there was unlikely to be a ticket check, so they wouldn't bother moving. Then the OBS introduced himself over the PA, stated he would be walking through, and asked everyone in First to make sure they held an appropriate ticket. That was enough to get the 'help yourself' couple scuttling back to Standard. Quite a marked change from the last few years of free-for-all on GatEx.

I suspect, for the money, being a dedicated OBS on GatEx is a good job. I'm sure the same role at 22.00 on West Coastway is a different proposition, however.
 

PHILIPE

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The difference here between Scortrail and Southern is the franchise, or lack of in Southerns case.
Southern is unique in the way it is contracted to Govia to run. The RMT are never going to win Southern. But the rest of the TOC's might be a different story.

Scotrail are also freed from DFT who have been back stage shoving Southern into their way of thinking
 

tsr

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I suspect, for the money, being a dedicated OBS on GatEx is a good job. I'm sure the same role at 22.00 on West Coastway is a different proposition, however.

While there's a certain luxury to generally only calling at staffed and/or mainline stations, with at least part of the journey with a pretty long time (by SE England standards) between stops, I would say that some of the strangest passengers I've found have been boarding or alighting at Gatwick. I'm not sure I'd want to be a non-safety-critical member of staff locked in a steel box with them for half an hour.
 

redbutton

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On the other hand they'll be more work to do for Southern drivers and ASLEF have been fairly quiet since saying drivers should refuse to take out 12 car Turbostar workings if they are DOO for safety reasons, which backfired in court.

ASLEF never said that. There was a blast SMS sent at the conclusion of negotiations which simply informed the membership that the negotiations ended without result, therefore there remained no agreement regarding 12-car DOO trains on GX.

That's why there was such surprise that the court was ready to rule that this was incitement to take industrial action- there was no call to action, just a statement of fact.

It also explains why ASLEF has been reluctant to make similar updates about negotiation progress since then, since in this context nearly any statement from the union could be taken as incitement that nullifies a subsequent ballot.
 

infobleep

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The difference here between Scortrail and Southern is the franchise, or lack of in Southerns case.
Southern is unique in the way it is contracted to Govia to run. The RMT are never going to win Southern. But the rest of the TOC's might be a different story.
All the government has to do is try and let all the other franchises like Southern. Then the same thing can occur.

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northwichcat

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ASLEF never said that. There was a blast SMS sent at the conclusion of negotiations which simply informed the membership that the negotiations ended without result, therefore there remained no agreement regarding 12-car DOO trains on GX.

That's why there was such surprise that the court was ready to rule that this was incitement to take industrial action- there was no call to action, just a statement of fact.

It also explains why ASLEF has been reluctant to make similar updates about negotiation progress since then, since in this context nearly any statement from the union could be taken as incitement that nullifies a subsequent ballot.

I imagine as far as the court was concerned the incident of a driver taking a 12 car service without a guard but refusing to open the doors to let passengers board was seen as unofficial industrial action. Even if the Southern driver's employment contracts say DOO can only be up to 10 cars the driver should have informed his manager that he can't take work the service without a guard or a unit being detached before taking any action. (I don't know if the driver did but the way it was reported gave the impression he was doing what ASLEF told him to do as a protest.)
 

WatcherZero

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RMT now telling its members to accept the OBS role and sign the new contracts 24 hours after their refusal to accept them which has led to staff losing the £2000 bonus.

Antagonism will persist but TSGN has won the battle with the union accepting OBS and that services can operate without a second member of staff.
 

Dave1987

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RMT now telling its members to accept the OBS role and sign the new contracts 24 hours after their refusal to accept them which has led to staff losing the £2000 bonus.

Antagonism will persist but TSGN has won the battle with the union accepting OBS and that services can operate without a second member of staff.

You think the destroying of all goodwill was worth it? I think we have heard of managers pleading with staff to do extra work. Remember Claire Perry saying it was "Outrageous and Unfair" that drivers were working to rule?
 
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HH

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RMT now telling its members to accept the OBS role and sign the new contracts 24 hours after their refusal to accept them which has led to staff losing the £2000 bonus.

Really? Heads should roll.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You think the destroying of all goodwill was worth it?

Given that they can run the train without an OBS it seems to be...
 
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Robertj21a

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You think the destroying of all goodwill was worth it? I think we have heard of managers pleading with staff to do extra work. Remember Claire Perry saying it was "Outrageous and Unfair" that drivers were working to rule?

It all seems a great shame. What I still don't understand is that Southern were always going to win the battle eventually, as it was a requirement of their contract with DfT, - so why didn't the RMT recognise that from the outset, and protect what they could for their members rather than continually arguing over doors and profits, bosses etc?
 

tony6499

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RMT now telling its members to accept the OBS role and sign the new contracts 24 hours after their refusal to accept them which has led to staff losing the £2000 bonus.

Antagonism will persist but TSGN has won the battle with the union accepting OBS and that services can operate without a second member of staff.

Legal advice from the RMT solicitors to protect the staff from dismissal
 

Robertj21a

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RMT now telling its members to accept the OBS role and sign the new contracts 24 hours after their refusal to accept them which has led to staff losing the £2000 bonus.
.

Presumably about to lose a lot more given the strikes are still on-going.
 

74A

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Do we know what T&C the Conductors transferring to OBS will have. Will they get the guaranteed overtime and pay rises. Or does the fact the RMT did not make an agreement mean that they will not ?
 

Dave1987

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Do we know what T&C the Conductors transferring to OBS will have. Will they get the guaranteed overtime and pay rises. Or does the fact the RMT did not make an agreement mean that they will not ?

Why do you care? Most will probably be making plans like Sarah for another job knowing this new role has no future.
 
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74A

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Why do you care?


I am sure other DOO schemes will be proposed in the next few years. Many guards post / watch threads like this. Knowing how much GTR are paying having imposed the new contract versus a negotiated settlement will help them to decide which choice to make.
 

embers25

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Sounds like they needed it a little more quickly...

Doesn't that highlight the point about the RMT many have made. Their members may have lost out on £2000 following their advice but they still have to pay their subs so the RMT lost nothing just their members. When/If this does all get resolved and the RMT claim victory think how many lost £2000 here first before the "RMT Victory".
 

Dave1987

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I am sure other DOO schemes will be proposed in the next few years. Many guards post / watch threads like this. Knowing how much GTR are paying having imposed the new contract versus a negotiated settlement will help them to decide which choice to make.

Surely you watched Wilkinson at the Transport select committee? There is no future for OBS roles. He said he isn't interested in two staff on trains. Would expect most will be looking for new jobs if/when the government specifies DOO extension. Although other TOCs drivers do not have DOO written into their contracts. The whole reason the RMT were fighting this is they know the OBS has no future. The OBS thing was only a PR thing so the union couldn't say people were being got rid of....yet
 
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