Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals

[TheEdge]

Do we know when the next movement will be taking place?
Thanks,
Ross

Have any gone yet? I thought the first and only movement was cancelled?

 

[bnsf734]

As far as I know the first move has yet to take place. It was cancelled at the last moment when it was decreed that the loco moving the set out of St Pancras International needed HS1 compatible signalling. (Cab signals?) I am not sure if this has been resolved yet.

 

[najaB]

Isn't there a further use rather than scrapping, such a shame when they are not that old.

Here's an idea: rather than wailing "Something must be done, think of the children", come up with a use for them that is financially sound and technically practical. When you've found it pass the suggestion on to Eurostar as I'm sure they would welcome a way to get more value out of a life-expired asset.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

As far as I know the first move has yet to take place. It was cancelled at the last moment when it was decreed that the loco moving the set out of St Pancras International needed HS1 compatible signalling. (Cab signals?) I am not sure if this has been resolved yet.

Would that limit the choice of loco to class 92s only? I can't think of any other class of loco that has TVM installed

 

[59CosG95]

Would that limit the choice of loco to class 92s only? I can't think of any other class of loco that has TVM installed

The Eurotunnel 0001's have it; since they're ex-NS 6400 locos, they probably won't be able to run off HS1. I suspect they'll probably use 66s, albeit with constant in-cab radio chatter until the ECML's reached. *waits to be corrected*

 

[DenmarkRail]

I know its been discussed, but.....

The Class 43's are 40 years old, and are still running a more intensive schedule than the class 373's, but the class 373's are being scrapped now?

Seems silly.... Many places where they can be reused.

 

[najaB]

You're right, it has been discussed already but...

Seems silly.... Many places where they can be reused.

Where, exactly, would those places be?

 

[D365]

Money has been spent on overhauling the HSTs to keep them working; they were only intended as an interim measure. Great Western electrification should really have happened 20-30 years ago.

 

[TheEdge]

Seems silly.... Many places where they can be reused.

Go on then. Please tell me where on the domestic railway there is use for a 20 year old, 20 vehicle and 387m long 186mph capable cab signalled train?

 

[gingerheid]

Well there's certainly no use for them in the UK, and the places on the continent where they could run already have nice supplies of newer trains.

Can someone remind me what it was the "White Rose" sets briefly used on the ECML did at Peterborough; did they just hang over the end of the platform, or was it that they were hanging over the points as well?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I know its been discussed, but.....

The Class 43's are 40 years old, and are still running a more intensive schedule than the class 373's, but the class 373's are being scrapped now?

Seems silly.... Many places where they can be reused.

the HST has really good route availability and is diesel powered

the TMST has poor route availability , is power hungry and gauge wise is smaller than similar TGV type trains on the continent ..

 

[TheEdge]

Can someone remind me what it was the "White Rose" sets briefly used on the ECML did at Peterborough; did they just hang over the end of the platform, or was it that they were hanging over the points as well?

I think the NoL sets were slightly shorter than the full Three Capital sets. Their length was still problematic though I believe, banned from various platforms and so on.

 

[Goldfish62]

I know its been discussed, but.....

The Class 43's are 40 years old, and are still running a more intensive schedule than the class 373's, but the class 373's are being scrapped now?

Seems silly.... Many places where they can be reused.

Despite its name, the HST is not a high speed train. It's a medium speed go anywhere train without many of the stresses and strains associated with true high speed trains. The Class 373 is a highly specialised high speed train that has spent its life getting an almighty pounding at high speeds as has been borne out by the condition of the structure found during the painful refurb programme.

 

[najaB]

Despite its name, the HST is not a high speed train...

40 years ago it was.

 

[coppercapped]

Despite its name, the HST is not a high speed train. It's a medium speed go anywhere train without many of the stresses and strains associated with true high speed trains. The Class 373 is a highly specialised high speed train that has spent its life getting an almighty pounding at high speeds as has been borne out by the condition of the structure found during the painful refurb programme.

...almighty pounding...

?

...the things run (ran?) as smooth as silk.

AIUI the structure condition was due more to inadequate corrosion protection when built.

 

[CosherB]

I know its been discussed, but.....

The Class 43's are 40 years old, and are still running a more intensive schedule than the class 373's, but the class 373's are being scrapped now?

Seems silly.... Many places where they can be reused.

Utter clap trap. We can't even work out where the future of our own Mk4 fleet will be deployed post-IEP, never mind importing time-expired and totally unsuited 373's!

 

[AlexNL]

it was decreed that the loco moving the set out of St Pancras International needed HS1 compatible signalling. (Cab signals?) I am not sure if this has been resolved yet.

The St. Pancras International area itself uses French KVB train control system, an intermittend train control system similar to PZB. Once a train enters HS1, it switches to TVM-430.

 

[Goldfish62]

40 years ago it was.

What has that got to do with the present day?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

?

...the things run (ran?) as smooth as silk.

AIUI the structure condition was due more to inadequate corrosion protection when built.

It's a scientific fact that high speed trains are placed under a great deal more stress than ones which run at lower speed.

 

[najaB]

What has that got to do with the present day?

Just pointing out that saying "Despite its name.." could be read as implying that it was (deliberately) misnamed.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Despite its name, the HST is not a high speed train. It's a medium speed go anywhere train without many of the stresses and strains associated with true high speed trains. The Class 373 is a highly specialised high speed train that has spent its life getting an almighty pounding at high speeds as has been borne out by the condition of the structure found during the painful refurb programme.

this is some kind of joke Goldfish


i'd suggest you check the UIC defintions of High speed rail as 125 mph operation on 'classic' lines IS high speed accordign to the UIC
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just pointing out that saying "Despite its name.." could be read as implying that it was (deliberately) misnamed.

or that goldfish doesn;t actually understand or know the Industry definitions

 

[D365]

this is some kind of joke Goldfish


i'd suggest you check the UIC defintions of High speed rail as 125 mph operation on 'classic' lines IS high speed accordign to the UIC

Yes but, other than that minor technicality, what he has written is very true.

 

[najaB]

It's a scientific fact that high speed trains are placed under a great deal more stress than ones which run at lower speed.

This is true (all other things being equal). However, my experience has been that HS1/LGV track quality is measurably better than what HSTs have to deal with which is more of a factor than operating speed.

 

[coppercapped]

What has that got to do with the present day?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It's a scientific fact that high speed trains are placed under a great deal more stress than ones which run at lower speed.

No it isn't a 'scientific fact'. The power density vs frequency curve for structural vibrations may be different for some components but then the component should have been designed for the duty cycle.

High speed trains generally don't suffer from heavy shunting shocks which can bend bits of underframe or buffing gear - I would suggest that in this case a 12 ton coal wagon, or Class 24 cab, was set under much higher stresses for its type than a high speed train which is not shunted and runs on smooth track. Speed has little to do with absolute stress levels.

Fatigue due to the number of stress reversals is a slightly different matter, but again the component should be designed and stressed to meet a specified service life. Aluminium has very different fatigue characteristics to a steel structure, but trains are not like civil aeroplanes where the fuselage goes through a pressurisation/depressurisation cycle on every flight.

If a train does not last 30 or 40 years then it is either:

• uneconomic
• unreliable
• superfluous.

Under 'uneconomic' I mean that its operating costs per passenger are higher than an alternative and 'operating costs' cover energy consumption, maintenance costs - including time out of service and costs and availability of spares - repair costs, track costs and so on.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm so sorry to expressed my opinion on this topic, based on ignorant layman's non-industry understanding, plus a bit of insider advice. I have clearly wound up a number of people for reasons best known to themselves so shall now bow out of this conversation for good.

 

[najaB]

I'm so sorry to expressed my opinion on this topic, based on ignorant layman's non-industry understanding, plus a bit of insider advice. I have clearly wound up a number of people for reasons best known to themselves so shall now bow out of this conversation for good.

Does that Trumpesque non-apology translate as 'Oops, my bad'?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For future reference, there's a difference between an opinion and 'scientific fact'. Not presenting the former as the latter will help avoid negative responses to your posts. Thanks.

 

[coppercapped]

I'm so sorry to expressed my opinion on this topic, based on ignorant layman's non-industry understanding, plus a bit of insider advice. I have clearly wound up a number of people for reasons best known to themselves so shall now bow out of this conversation for good.

Oh dear!

I am not in the railway industry but I studied physics and had some years experience in manufacturing parts for the aerospace business so I know - or at least knew(!) - about vibration testing. So when people state that something is a 'scientific fact' when it clearly is not, then they leave themselves open to a response.

 

[CreativeDoink]

A quick flick through but can't see where this has been pointed out - the 373s are too heavy for key bridges, hence their limitations on the ECML. This is why they were kept to the Leeds route in the end.

Best
D

 

[SouthStand]

You're right, it has been discussed already but...Where, exactly, would those places be?

Would be ideal for Spalding to Peterborough shuttles on a Sunday me thinks.

 

[flash]

A quick flick through but can't see where this has been pointed out - the 373s are too heavy for key bridges, hence their limitations on the ECML. This is why they were kept to the Leeds route in the end.

Best
D

You may well find that they conformed to the French High Speed line axle loadings - 17t (ton or tonnes....) Class 91s are in excess of 20t. The restrictions are more likely to be gauging and /or diagramming

 

[najaB]

The restrictions are more likely to be gauging and /or diagramming

I seem to remember that King Edward VII Bridge was a problem.