Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[FordFocus]

It gets reported numerous times. Nothing changes and the TOC's brush it under the carpet like it didn't happen. In fact, it's such a common occurrence that most just shrug their shoulders and move on.

It's all well and good asking people to report it but what do you actually believe will or should happen ?

Same here. They only really pay attention when the delay minutes start racking up and even then the problem will reoccur a few weeks later. I had to secure my cab and deploy the ramp at the rear of a train as there was a wheelchair aboard that needed alighting with no station staff in sight. So I stuck to procedure. Told the family it would be a couple of minutes as I needed to contact the signaller, made a PA announcement explaining we would be held for a few minutes, secured the cab, walked down several carriages of trains. Unable to use the station ramp as it was padlocked with some unknown key, had to fight my way past luggage to get to the onboard ramp and eventually deployed it. Waved the family off and wished them well for the rest of the day (people in wheelchairs can be very apologetic for the delay but it most certainly not their fault!). Then stow the ramp away, re-energise the cab, GSM-R didn't store the code, set that back up. Each minute slowly adding up.

In the end it was something like 5-7 minutes lost, missed PPM and two trains behind missing PPM as they lost their paths. There was an obvious delay slip, someone from higher up in delays tried to pin a few minutes onto me and even my manager had an email off someone but the driver is blameless in situation like these.

The most ironic thing is the wheelchair area and ramp is right next to a guards operation panel for controlling the doors. If there was a guard onboard, maximum of 30 secs to a minute for the ramp to be deployed. Of course the armchair experts on this forum know better than people actually doing the job.
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On board staff have just received an email/letter confirming that if the RMT don't accept GTR's offer by Midday tomorrow (which they have of course already refused), then GTR will issue staff letters on Friday, which would be -

1. Those who have opted to go OBS will have this confirmed
2. Those who haven't chose to go OBS from Conductor will be given 12 weeks notice of a move to OBS
3. Confirmation to those who will remain conductors.

Conductor depots will remain at Barnham, Brighton, Eastbourne and Selhurst with conductor numbers increasing slightly. It looks as if OBS will be fully implemented by the beginning of January, but no solid date confirmed. No doubt GTR need to heavily recruit to ensure all current services with a second staff member on board continue to do so.

It's also worth noting that the majority of the coastal routes haven't been signed off for DOO working yet either, so that needs to happen as well!

An unresolved issue with ASLEF remains with no H&S reps signing the new DOO routes off yet as per collective bargaining arrangements.

 

[Dave1987]

On board staff have just received an email/letter confirming that if the RMT don't accept GTR's offer by Midday tomorrow (which they have of course already refused), then GTR will issue staff letters on Friday, which would be -

1. Those who have opted to go OBS will have this confirmed
2. Those who haven't chose to go OBS from Conductor will be given 12 weeks notice of a move to OBS
3. Confirmation to those who will remain conductors.

Conductor depots will remain at Barnham, Brighton, Eastbourne and Selhurst with conductor numbers increasing slightly. It looks as if OBS will be fully implemented by the beginning of January, but no solid date confirmed. No doubt GTR need to heavily recruit to ensure all current services with a second staff member on board continue to do so.

It's also worth noting that the majority of the coastal routes haven't been signed off for DOO working yet either, so that needs to happen as well!

Well if the jungle drums are anything to go by (and usually get it semi correct) lots have jumped ship. So the management have lost lots of experienced staff.

 

[swt class 450]

I was on a Dorking to Horsham train yesterday (a class 377) and there was no OBS on board. I walked through the entire train and there was definitely no OBS on board the train. Unfortunately i imagine that this will probably be quite common.

Guards are especially important on this line as Box Hill & Westhumble / Holmwood / Ockley are some of the very few stations in the UK that still dont have any help points. Warnham did have two installed a while ago though. So i dont know what wheelchair users will do without Guards.

So many of the stations across the Southern network that are becoming DOO are completly unstaffed. Even if there is an OBS on board i highly doubt that they will be looking out of the doors at each stop to check if any wheelchair users need to board. It is just completely unacceptable to say that wheelchair users need to book assistance in advance.

 

[Dave1987]

RMT have announced that new talks with no pre conditions are to take place.

 

[XDM]

I was on a Dorking to Horsham train yesterday (a class 377) and there was no OBS on board. I walked through the entire train and there was definitely no OBS on board the train. Unfortunately i imagine that this will probably be quite common.

It's possible there was a conductor,marked to assist,lurking in the rear cab. But if no conductor or OBS aboard, it proves the benefits of Southern's new DOO route to the hundred or so passengers on the train. Their train did not have to be cancelled & their day spoilt because a conductor took a sickie. I hope they will thank Charles Horton.
And it was totally safe,like the other 7,000 UK trains that ran driver only yesterday.

 

[Dave1987]

It's possible there was a conductor,marked to assist,lurking in the rear cab. But if no conductor or OBS aboard, it proves the benefits of Southern's new DOO route to the hundred or so passengers on the train. Their train did not have to be cancelled & their day spoilt because a conductor took a sickie. I hope they will thank Charles Horton.
And it was totally safe,like the other 7,000 UK trains that ran driver only yesterday.

Well it would actually prove the claim that an OBS wouldn't be provided only during major disruption is complete bull. I presume you believe the Watford tunnel incident didn't benefit from a fully trained guard onboard, even though passengers said the crews acted impeccably to keep passengers safe. I know you won't respond to this as you just moan about anti-DOO people without responding to any points put to you and just claim people who disagree with you aren't able to have civilised debate :roll:

 

[Scott M]

I've heard one of the big issues drivers have with DOO is knowing when it is safe to close the doors.

Could they not implement more door buttons, eg a button under each monitor controlling only the doors shown on that monitor? With a master button still remaining for times when it is obviously safe to close all doors at once.

 

[Carlisle]

Well it would actually prove the claim that an OBS wouldn't be provided only during major disruption is complete bull.

But the whole OBS roll out has only just started and their future diagrams may well be different from current guards ones, therefore seeing as virtually no existing conductors have been transferred yet its a bit too early to to make such statements

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well if the jungle drums are anything to go by (and usually get it semi correct) lots have jumped ship. So the management have lost lots of experienced staff.

Any news as to their current whereabouts?

 

[sarahj]

Any news as to their current whereabouts?

Well some depots, a lot have taken early retirement. Hardest hit of this has been a depot were folks go to retire.

Many have gone to do other things in the railway, driving (both for GTR and others), backroom work. An add for trainee drivers in Brighton the other week had many filling in the forms.

And some have just left. I know of one who is now a traffic warden (or parking enforcement officer).

I'm on the lookout for other things.

 

[swt class 450]

Well some depots, a lot have taken early retirement. Hardest hit of this has been a depot were folks go to retire.

Many have gone to do other things in the railway, driving (both for GTR and others), backroom work. An add for trainee drivers in Brighton the other week had many filling in the forms.

And some have just left. I know of one who is now a traffic warden (or parking enforcement officer).

I'm on the lookout for other things.

I know that at least four Southern Guards have recently moved to South West Trains.

 

[sarahj]

I know that at least four Southern Guards have recently moved to South West Trains.

Yeah, a few Barnham lot of moved over. Plus some london lot were heading over, or looking to head over that was as well.

 

[Dave1987]

Well some depots, a lot have taken early retirement. Hardest hit of this has been a depot were folks go to retire.

Many have gone to do other things in the railway, driving (both for GTR and others), backroom work. An add for trainee drivers in Brighton the other week had many filling in the forms.

And some have just left. I know of one who is now a traffic warden (or parking enforcement officer).

I'm on the lookout for other things.

Good look to them all and to you Sarah!
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Are they going to have enough staff left to keep the promise of more staff on board trains than there were before? With so many jumping ship they must be really really short now.

 

[Tomnick]

Their train did not have to be cancelled & their day spoilt because a conductor took a sickie.

...or (unless you *know* that there was no second member of staff on that train *and* that it was because the booked Guard/OBS "took a sickie") because the company hasn't maintained staffing levels to the correct establishment, doesn't have adequate spare cover etc.??

And it was totally safe,like the other 7,000 UK trains that ran driver only yesterday.

No train movement (or indeed anything else in the world) is "totally safe", i.e. absolutely free of risk.

 

[gavin]

@SkyNewsBreak

RMT union says talks aimed at averting Southern Railway strikes starting next week have ended without agreement and the action will go ahead

 

[thelem]

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/southern-reject-rmt-offer/

The key part for me is mentioned in the proposal section at the bottom:

3. During the transition period Southern (GTR) will work jointly with RMT and representatives of train drivers to create a new set of operational processes and procedures that will be acceptable to all parties with the remit:
• That those services that currently require a conductor will retain a second safety critical and competent OBS on each service that runs.

My understanding is that Southern have been insisting that the should be some circumstances where a train can operate without a second member of staff, and RMT are insisting that the train should be cancelled if a member of staff is not available.

The new proposal doesn't change anything on that key point, so I don't know why RMT thought Southern might find it acceptable.

 

[74A]

So the RMT have conceded that the driver will operate the doors.

 

[hwl]

So the RMT have conceded that the driver will operate the doors.

Yep but they won't see it like that.
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http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/southern-reject-rmt-offer/

The key part for me is mentioned in the proposal section at the bottom:



My understanding is that Southern have been insisting that the should be some circumstances where a train can operate without a second member of staff, and RMT are insisting that the train should be cancelled if a member of staff is not available.

The new proposal doesn't change anything on that key point, so I don't know why RMT thought Southern might find it acceptable.

I'm surprised the talks lasted that long given the RMT's preconditions (in press release) to unconditional talks!

 

[FordFocus]

So the RMT have conceded that the driver will operate the doors.

There were some concessions on doors ages ago, see a previous PDF the RMT posted as a press release. A working party was going to be established to discuss it.

 

[pompeyfan]

Apparently the old conductors will transfer to the new role under new conditions, any idea exactly what conditions they'll be on? I'd be interested to know exactly what this role will consist of.

 

[Barn]

Presumably the £2,000 is off the table now?

 

[tsr]

Apparently the old conductors will transfer to the new role under new conditions, any idea exactly what conditions they'll be on? I'd be interested to know exactly what this role will consist of.

I'm not sure precisely what difference "ex-conductor" and "ex-revenue" OBSs will have in terms of roles, though I suspect perhaps very little, especially after the next few months.

OBSs - all currently ex-revenue staff - are currently required to carry out the following actions, as an example selection:
- Check and sell tickets and, if trained, deal in other ways with ticketless travel (methods of which will be requested by management)
- Deal with customer queries
- Provide wheelchair ramp and other accessibility assistance, generally if no station staff are available to do so
- Make PA annoucements at key points on the route
- Remedy faults with the train environment which can be undertaken by non-safety-critical personnel, such as resetting toilet modules
- Act on instructions from the driver regarding onboard problems such as passcom activations - for example, resetting the alarms
- Follow any instructions from the driver regarding actions an emergency, for example in an evacuation

It should be noted that OBSs currently work onboard 377s only. I'm not sure what development there may be on the traction side of things - for example, with 387s, if Southern conductors (currently permitted to work on them) would be able to work on them as OBSs as well.

 

[pompeyfan]

Ah thank you, what about in terms of benefits and pay? Would assume it would be a significant drop and that holiday entitlements and so on would be reduced too, as well as the long term insecurity of the job.

 

[WatcherZero]

No change in pay and benefits (that assurance had already been given till the end of the franchise) just change in specified responsibilities that means they wouldn't be able to object to working a train without being in charge of doors.

RMT seem to have offered that Conductors wouldn't operate doors but in return they were demanding a joint review before implementation that likely would have taken years and in the meantime single manning would have been banned, and of course we remember the last time they agreed to an independent arbiters review of practises then walked away refusing to abide by the decision when it was reached.

GTR basically replied RMT were just stalling had only offered a simple rebadging exercise and not any fundamental change in the power and responsibilities of Conductors.

 

[pompeyfan]

No change in pay and benefits (that assurance had already been given till the end of the franchise) just change in specified responsibilities that means they wouldn't be able to object to working a train without being in charge of doors.

RMT seem to have offered that Conductors wouldn't operate doors but in return they were demanding a joint review before implementation that likely would have taken years and in the meantime single manning would have been banned, and of course we remember the last time they agreed to an independent arbiters review of practises then walked away refusing to abide by the decision when it was reached.

GTR basically replied RMT were just stalling had only offered a simple rebadging exercise and not any fundamental change in the power and responsibilities of Conductors.

I was under the impression the previous agreements and conditions were now off the table and they were offering the guarantees as a good will gesture.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Surely if you were with a friend who was disabled, you would help them to board without the need for station staff. I know I would.

Good luck with that. Do you know where the wheelchair ramp is? how to use it? Do you have the key to unlock it from stowage?

It is up to the railway to make itself accessible.

 

[physics34]

The services that have recently gone over to DOO there is still nothing in place for the train to not run if an OBS is not avaliable....... nothing to say we can refuse to run the service...which of course will eventually mean that there won't be OBSs at all and the Unions fears will come true.

 

[cjmillsnun]

What's bad about the Scotrail deal that Southern don't like?

GTR don't have a say. DfT do. They call the shots.
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I hope you reported your companies procedural failings so it could be investigated why it went wrong.

Havant isn't managed by GTR so it could've been an SWT failing. Whilst I'm sure it has been reported, this is not the first time it has happened. It happens on all TOCs and is far from uncommon.

 

[74A]

The services that have recently gone over to DOO there is still nothing in place for the train to not run if an OBS is not avaliable....... nothing to say we can refuse to run the service...which of course will eventually mean that there won't be OBSs at all and the Unions fears will come true.

On what basis would you refuse ? A second person is not required on a DOO train and hasn't been since 1982.

If the RMT refuse to engage with the company about the role of the DOO then GTR will just press ahead on their own terms. GTR have made several offer to reach a negotiated settlement but RMT are not interested.

 

[Astradyne]

Good luck with that. Do you know where the wheelchair ramp is? how to use it? Do you have the key to unlock it from stowage?

It is up to the railway to make itself accessible.

You could to it quite easily without a ramp ... a ramp just aids the task ... those helping friends are not jobsworths, you make an extra effort for friends
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GTR don't have a say. DfT do. They call the shots.
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Havant isn't managed by GTR so it could've been an SWT failing. Whilst I'm sure it has been reported, this is not the first time it has happened. It happens on all TOCs and is far from uncommon.

If it is as common as you say then the DfT should hit the companies with big fines if they cant put a simple process in place.

The person receiving the request should give the requestor an acknowlegement .... so there is a trace of accountability.