Arriva CrossCountry contract extended through to October 2019

[HH]

I wish TOCs and government would stop wasting money on wifi

Corrected. TOCs are only doing what they're told on this. I've tried pointing out to DfT what a waste of money it is, but it's a tick in the box exercise that MPs like to see (being close to Judges in their appreciation of technology)..

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Soon as in 2018.

Because, you know, it's 18 months work to turn the paywall off.

Free Wifi is worth what you pay for it.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Free WiFi on trains isn't a waste of time. The most expensive and complex part of the work is providing the Ethernet backbone and power through the train. Once this is done, upgrading to new standards is a relatively simple job of swapping out access points for newer versions. 5G will focus on folding WiFi into the cellular technology suite, so in future a '3G repeater' would just be a WiFi hotspot connecting to the cellular network as a backbone. Using shorter-range WiFi tech rather than cellular is vital for power efficiency in future devices and grouping together a carriage's worth of mobile devices allows more efficient mobile spectrum allocation.

It's similar to how millions are being spent fitting power sockets to trains despite us being only a generation or two of phones away from wirefree charging. That wirefree charging will still require a power backbone and to be relatively close to the devices which will be drawing power from it.

Wirefree charging can then make it feasible to fit smart technology to much more of a train. If you've got wireless charging and an internet backbone available throughout the interior of a carriage, then it's no longer necessary to install physical wires to every possible smart device. That would make it much cheaper to implement things like seat occupation sensors or even fitting sensors to things like doors and windows.

 

[HH]

Free WiFi on trains isn't a waste of time. The most expensive and complex part of the work is providing the Ethernet backbone and power through the train. Once this is done, upgrading to new standards is a relatively simple job of swapping out access points for newer versions. 5G will focus on folding WiFi into the cellular technology suite, so in future a '3G repeater' would just be a WiFi hotspot connecting to the cellular network as a backbone. Using shorter-range WiFi tech rather than cellular is vital for power efficiency in future devices and grouping together a carriage's worth of mobile devices allows more efficient mobile spectrum allocation.

It's similar to how millions are being spent fitting power sockets to trains despite us being only a generation or two of phones away from wirefree charging. That wirefree charging will still require a power backbone and to be relatively close to the devices which will be drawing power from it.

Wirefree charging can then make it feasible to fit smart technology to much more of a train. If you've got wireless charging and an internet backbone available throughout the interior of a carriage, then it's no longer necessary to install physical wires to every possible smart device. That would make it much cheaper to implement things like seat occupation sensors or even fitting sensors to things like doors and windows.

1. Providing the ethernet backbone is a pretty expensive addition. Especially when you're providing it for free. Who pays?
2. Free Wifi on trains is always going to suffer bandwidth problems, because 100 people using one connection is never going to be as fast as one person using one connection.
3. Many places don't even get 3G, let alone 4G at the moment. When 5G starts to roll out (2020), some places still won't have 3G.
4. What will technology look like in 10 years time?

 

[kieron]

The "big money" has gone on franchises which arguably are in greater need of fleet replacement/upgrade (GWR, Northern/TPE, East Anglia). XC has a fleet of newish trains, and the time horizon is only 3 years.

TPE was in a similar position to XC before they started remapping it - newish trains, but with overcrowding issues.

DfT will decide what's best for XC after they have let West Coast and East Midlands, when the rolling stock cascade position will be clearer.
Ordering a new 80x fleet today just brings up the question of what you are going to do with the 22x fleet in 5 years time when the MML is wired.

That's not the only option. EC and GW will have a lot of HSTs coming spare. Were the government minded to request it, XC could use some of these. Shorter formations would reduce the time penalty from this, as would transferring some of the smaller station calls to IEPs (which should have better acceleration). This all takes time, but the clock is unlikely to start now until the next franchise does.

The XC 17x routes could do with a revamp though.
I'm not sure the DfT knows quite what to do with those routes, as they could easily be run by other franchises.
They are a legacy of the "one route/one TOC" policy of the SRA, which is why the Derby/Leicester/Cheltenham axes out of Birmingham are XC-only.

Although there are three TOCs between Peterborough and Cambridge. I wonder if Greater Anglia plan to improve their service in their new franchise.

 

[infobleep]

Could the system that they have now cope with all the addition users?
Perhaps that is the reason that they cannot do it straight away.
Sam

It can't cope now and they are charging £8 per day!

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[NotATrainspott]

1. Providing the ethernet backbone is a pretty expensive addition. Especially when you're providing it for free. Who pays?

As far as I am aware, the ROSCOs are paying for fitment because all franchises now require it. In any case, the extra cost is relatively minor when the trains are going in for major refurbishment anyway. I touch on this later but there are benefits to the ROSCO of having the equipment installed. Having a permanent, fast internet connection makes it easy to have the trains phone home to report faults before they become a bigger issue.

2. Free Wifi on trains is always going to suffer bandwidth problems, because 100 people using one connection is never going to be as fast as one person using one connection.

Given the way that mobile networks work, there's no inherent reason why 100 people sharing one connection should be any slower. That single connection doesn't need to consider battery life and can use large antennas, and can be optimised for railway use. The reason for the Ethernet backbone is that connection load can be spread between connections in different carriages, increasing resilience to signal problems.

Providing an on-train network also presents an opportunity to do local caching of content to reduce overall network load. There's a long tail effect where most network traffic is a relatively small proportion of content available on the internet. The on-train network can act as a proxy server for media content like popular Netflix or iPlayer videos or things like static content on Facebook, so these requests never need to go over the cellular connection. Netflix supplies 2U 19" rack devices to ISPs which can cache up to 280TB of its data and there's no reason such a thing couldn't be fitted to a train. TPE are committed to installing media servers on its trains and we're likely to see them fitted to all long distance trains.

3. Many places don't even get 3G, let alone 4G at the moment. When 5G starts to roll out (2020), some places still won't have 3G.

And?

4. What will technology look like in 10 years time?

The physical backbone will still be roughly the same, even if there's lots of shiny new technology plugging into it. It's like how we're likely never going to move away from 230V mains supply.

 

[Suraggu]

The first 2 AXC HST vehicles were taken from Craigentinny to Doncaster works today for CET and Plug door fitment.

 

[Kettledrum]

That's not the only option. EC and GW will have a lot of HSTs coming spare. Were the government minded to request it, XC could use some of these. Shorter formations would reduce the time penalty from this

QUOTE]

Shorter formations! Please no. What part of the chronic over-crowding would this help address? Particularly in the central core through Birmingham New Street which is pretty much operating at capacity, so couldn't have more trains.

People might tolerate slightly slower XC journeys if there was a major step change in capacity that meant many more peoples got a seat.

 

[Class 170101]

Shame that they will be no improvements on the Stansted airport route. Timetable has not changed since I moved to Fens, 15 years ago. The first train to Cambridge is full and overloaded when it arrives at March and is pot luck if you can get on at all. The locals have been demanding earlier trains to Cambridge and the airport for years. The first train out of March to New Street arrives in Bimingham (7.58am) before the first train to the airport arrives in Cambridge (8.09am).

Problem is the train has to travel all the way from New Street. If Lericester signed the road between Leicester and Stansted Airport I would think there would be earlier starters and later finishers.

Although there are three TOCs between Peterborough and Cambridge. I wonder if Greater Anglia plan to improve their service in their new franchise.

Abellio I think said in their bid was hourly from 2019. However they have no depot in Peterborough so don't expect to see early starts and late finishes at Peterborough. GTR is the operator based here here but unfortunately sign neither route or traction.

That's not the only option. EC and GW will have a lot of HSTs coming spare. Were the government minded to request it, XC could use some of these. Shorter formations would reduce the time penalty from this, as would transferring some of the smaller station calls to IEPs (which should have better acceleration). This all takes time, but the clock is unlikely to start now until the next franchise does.

Shorter formations! Please no. What part of the chronic over-crowding would this help address? Particularly in the central core through Birmingham New Street which is pretty much operating at capacity, so couldn't have more trains.

People might tolerate slightly slower XC journeys if there was a major step change in capacity that meant many more peoples got a seat.

I can't believe that all the SW to Scotland journeys can't be converted to HSTs and timings modified appropriately. However I think some have said it doesn't work with some operators paths elsewhere.
Shorter HSTs whilst able to keep to Voyager SRTs would probably have less seats than their Voyager counterparts and couldn't be strengthened unlike a single Voyager joining up with another Voyager to become a pair of Voyagers.

 

[mark-h]

The first 2 AXC HST vehicles were taken from Craigentinny to Doncaster works today for CET and Plug door fitment.

So XC will have the first power door and CET HSTs- not Scotrail.

Are both TOCs having the work done in the same way by the same company?

 

[kieron]

Shorter formations! Please no. What part of the chronic over-crowding would this help address? Particularly in the central core through Birmingham New Street which is pretty much operating at capacity, so couldn't have more trains.

People might tolerate slightly slower XC journeys if there was a major step change in capacity that meant many more peoples got a seat.

Sorry, I may not have made that very clear. I'm not talking about a reduction based on what XC passengers enjoy now here, but a reduction based on the 7-9 carriage-per-loco formations these HSTs currently have.

There is quite a big performance gap now. Just comparing Leuchars-Aberdeen on realtimetrains.co.uk (where both operators have the same calling pattern), the EC HST which arrives at 2111 is scheduled to take 6 minutes longer than the XC 22x arriving at 2048, with most of the difference being between stops. Yesterday, each was late throughout, and the XC train alone slightly improved on these timings.

I wasn't thinking so much of what a passenger will accept (which I suspect would largely depend on whether the passenger has a connection to make), but of what will allow the train to negotiate the various junctions on its route without too many changes.

Personally, I feel it may have fallen foul of the government's "every franchise should pretend to make a profit" dogma.

Abellio I think said in their bid was hourly from 2019. However they have no depot in Peterborough so don't expect to see early starts and late finishes at Peterborough. GTR is the operator based here here but unfortunately sign neither route or traction.

Thanks. I think I'm right in saying that none of the companies who serve Peterborough-Ely have a depot in Peterborough.

Shorter HSTs whilst able to keep to Voyager SRTs would probably have less seats than their Voyager counterparts and couldn't be strengthened unlike a single Voyager joining up with another Voyager to become a pair of Voyagers.

Doesn't that depend on how long the HST actually is? I realise HSTs don't have the standing area at each end of the train, but these don't have the capacity of even a single carriage. Do you know if adding an extra loco would be a viable way to improve performance if there is no happy medium?

I was actually thinking more of using this where the extra capacity is less vital, or using them for local services in areas where they can help relieve local demand, and there are paths to fit them in.

 

[najaB]

Do you know if adding an extra loco would be a viable way to improve performance if there is no happy medium?

What's your proposed formation?

 

[infobleep]

Yesterday morning I was in the 6.02 Guildford to Newcastle service. At Oxford we finally had an on board catering announcement.

The member of staff said they had chrisps, chocolate and pastries for sale.

I don't know about other people but I usually don't fancy chocolate or chrisps for breakfast! Especially at 7.15 in the morning.

On top of that there would be no hot water until Birmingham. They said in passing to another he passenger, as they were going through. Everyone probably wants a hot drink and they will all be getting off at Birmingham.

What do they need to get hot water? I assume something was broken on the trolly and spares are only kept at a few key stations. They clear were taking less money as a result.

On a more general point I looked at their breakfast offering. It was porridge, panini with ham and something else or pan aux raisins. Not a great choice so I didn't bother. I waited until Birmingham and then went to the Railway pub near by. £4.99 for a medium sized breakfast which was more than enough for me.

I might have bought something if they had a greater breakfast selection. That's not a temporary fault but a company policy on the range of food for sale. Like the company policy on poor WiFi, if my experience yesterday is wide spread on that route and charging for it.

At least he didn't mention alcohol being for sale at 7.15 in the morning!

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[Anvil1984]

Yesterday morning I was in the 6.02 Guildford to Newcastle service. At Oxford we finally had an on board catering announcement.

The member of staff said they had chrisps, chocolate and pastries for sale.

I don't know about other people but I usually don't fancy chocolate or chrisps for breakfast! Especially at 7.15 in the morning.

On top of that there would be no hot water until Birmingham. They said in passing to another he passenger, as they were going through. Everyone probably wants a hot drink and they will all be getting off at Birmingham.

What do they need to get hot water? I assume something was broken on the trolly and spares are only kept at a few key stations. They clear were taking less money as a result.

On a more general point I looked at their breakfast offering. It was porridge, panini with ham and something else or pan aux raisins. Not a great choice so I didn't bother. I waited until Birmingham and then went to the Railway pub near by. £4.99 for a medium sized breakfast which was more than enough for me.

I might have bought something if they had a greater breakfast selection. That's not a temporary fault but a company policy on the range of food for sale. Like the company policy on poor WiFi, if my experience yesterday is wide spread on that route and charging for it.

At least he didn't mention alcohol being for sale at 7.15 in the morning!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

They need an urn to work in the trolley, if one hasn't turned up at Reading or is cold then no there's no hot water available until Birmingham

 

[Bletchleyite]

The first 2 AXC HST vehicles were taken from Craigentinny to Doncaster works today for CET and Plug door fitment.

Are they getting Chilternised (chopping half of the vehicle off) or are they getting the proposed ScotRail design which involves a sliding, not a plug door?

 

[BanburyBlue]

They need an urn to work in the trolley, if one hasn't turned up at Reading or is cold then no there's no hot water available until Birmingham

This is an ongoing grump of mine. on North east to south coast services they shop the catering at Derby (for their stock check), and the new person on board at B'ham then has to do their stock check, which often means no catering from Derby to Banbury.

And breakfast, don't get me started. I'm sure they used to do some nice bacon rolls? Last week I asked as the trolley went past, the guy with the trolley said we do a bacon and hash brown Panini. I said just a bacon and hash brown Panini? He replies 'yes'. When it arrived it was a bacon and hash brown Panini with a spicy tomato salsa - not quite the same thing!!

 

[infobleep]

They need an urn to work in the trolley, if one hasn't turned up at Reading or is cold then no there's no hot water available until Birmingham

Don't they have hot water at Oxford?

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is an ongoing grump of mine. on North east to south coast services they shop the catering at Derby (for their stock check), and the new person on board at B'ham then has to do their stock check, which often means no catering from Derby to Banbury.

And breakfast, don't get me started. I'm sure they used to do some nice bacon rolls? Last week I asked as the trolley went past, the guy with the trolley said we do a bacon and hash brown Panini. I said just a bacon and hash brown Panini? He replies 'yes'. When it arrived it was a bacon and hash brown Panini with a spicy tomato salsa - not quite the same thing!!

Don't get me started on people or descriptions that claim one thing and then turn out to have extras not previously mentioned!

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[Anvil1984]

Don't they have hot water at Oxford?

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't get me started on people or descriptions that claim one thing and then turn out to have extras not previously mentioned!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

They don't have a catering base where they take deliveries at Oxford and it may not be the hot water that is the issue it could be a missing / faulty urn which is loaded at specific points..not Oxford. Deliveries for XC are if required (unless changed recently) Bournemouth, Reading, Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Plymouth, Bristol and Manchester (used to be able to get a top up at Sheffield but I'm sure that stopped)

 

[infobleep]

They don't have a catering base where they take deliveries at Oxford and it may not be the hot water that is the issue it could be a missing / faulty urn which is loaded at specific points..not Oxford. Deliveries for XC are if required (unless changed recently) Bournemouth, Reading, Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Plymouth, Bristol and Manchester (used to be able to get a top up at Sheffield but I'm sure that stopped)

Thanks for that. I couldn't be certain what the issue was but it certainly lost XC some revenue. As did the breakfast choices. Well in that case at least one person's revenue to them, mine.

Now Great Western Railway when they were first use to get my money when they had a travelling chef. Whether it was enough money to run the service across all customers I know not.

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[BanburyBlue]

I think one of the issues with XC is that the trolley stays with the train. i'm sure with some other TOCs the trolley stays with the host?

 

[43096]

Are they getting Chilternised (chopping half of the vehicle off) or are they getting the proposed ScotRail design which involves a sliding, not a plug door?

Sliding door design. The Chiltern version is basically dead now as it is more expensive and more difficult.

 

[causton]

And breakfast, don't get me started. I'm sure they used to do some nice bacon rolls? Last week I asked as the trolley went past, the guy with the trolley said we do a bacon and hash brown Panini. I said just a bacon and hash brown Panini? He replies 'yes'. When it arrived it was a bacon and hash brown Panini with a spicy tomato salsa - not quite the same thing!!

I personally quite liked that panini

 

[Starmill]

I'm quite impressed that XC's policy removing Admin Fees for changing Advance tickets applies to all Advance tickets they've sold through their website (not their app, though).