London bus ticket machine and Concessionary passes

[heart-of-wessex]

Hello all,

Don't usually end up on TfL buses, but I did for a change taking the 16 to Kilburn, can't remember what type of bus it was (TEH Something) and was surprised to see a ticket machine fitted, with a few buttons which surprised me. Are various tickets still issued? Or are they just fitted as standard? Someone did get on and touched the oyster reader and a ticket or reciept was printed out, bloke didn't take it anyway and it was just left sticking out.

Also noted on the journey, an old guy got on with a concessionary pass and tapped the oyster reader which went 'beep beep'. Guy carried on down the bus and the driver banged on his screen and said 'Hey' *bang bang* 'Oi! Get back here!' Guy comes back and driver said 'No! Not valid on this bus'

Guy said 'It's a concessionary pass, valid on all buses in England' then went back down the bus. The driver re-opened the doors but the guy stayed on. In the end the driver shut the doors and set off.

I thought concessionary passes were valid in London?

I don't know much about passes and what the ticket machines do but Im just curious.

Any help appreciated

 

[Martin66]

Concessionary bus passes from outside London

If you're from outside London and have a bus pass issued by another English council, you can use it, at any time, to travel free on buses displaying the red roundel.

You should show your pass to the driver; at the moment they can't be read by the yellow card readers. If the bus you're on doesn't display the red roundel, check with the driver if you can use it; most will let you travel free between 09:30 and 23:00 on weekdays, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.

English National Concessionary Passes issued by English councils outside London can't be used on Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground, TfL Rail or National Rail services.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/freedom-pass

 

[TC60054]

Nice to see customer service is still a thing

 

[plcd1]

The ticket machines are still fitted because they provide something to attach the Oyster card reader to. They also contain the "brains" to collect and transmit data to and from the Oyster card reader using the bus's radio system.

The machine retains a paper ticket printer so drivers can issue a transfer ticket if required by passenger. This is if the bus breaks down or is turned short of the advertised destination on the bus. The paper ticket you saw printed was almost certainly because the card balance on the Oyster card had gone negative after it was touched. The ticket is a reminder to the passenger that this has happened and they need to top up the card balance to a positive balance to continue travelling. I believe bus drivers can also, if requested, provide a print out of some of the data on an Oyster Card if the card holder requests it. I think there are also special print outs which the machine can do if a revenue control inspector boards the bus. Until recently that included a list of the contactless payment cards that had been used on the bus on the current trip. I believe now the inspectors just hold their reader against the card reader and the information is transferred electronically once the driver has instructed the ticket machine to do the data transfer.

As already said English National Concessionary Travel Scheme (ENCTS) passes are valid on London Buses. However those from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are not so it is entirely plausible a pass from those areas might have been presented. Alternatively it may have been a London Councils issued pass notionally valid in London but which was out of date or otherwise "hot listed" as not valid for travel.

 

[PeterC]

I have never had my ENCTS pass queried by a London driver. I always show the pass and don't try to touch in, the driver has a button to press to record this. On one occasion the driver insisted that I touch the card on the reader, naturally this produced an error which the driver ignored and I travelled anyway.

 

[Busaholic]

Concessionary bus passes from outside London

If you're from outside London and have a bus pass issued by another English council, you can use it, at any time, to travel free on buses displaying the red roundel.

You should show your pass to the driver; at the moment they can't be read by the yellow card readers. If the bus you're on doesn't display the red roundel, check with the driver if you can use it; most will let you travel free between 09:30 and 23:00 on weekdays, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.

English National Concessionary Passes issued by English councils outside London can't be used on Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground, TfL Rail or National Rail services.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/adult-discounts-and-concessions/freedom-pass

I'm someone with a pass as described above. When bendybuses were operating in London drivers had no direct contact with the public on ticketing matters, and one just boarded the bus and sat down or stood up. Seemingly, a large proportion of passengers on some routes e.g. the 25 were owners of such passes, as my observations showed there was little Oyster usage on some journeys - there were some remarkably young-looking 'oldies' amongst us, and I recollect one or two mass evacuations when ticket inspectors were spotted at an upcoming stop! Sarcasm aside, on my last journey on a bendy, knowing that the New Bus for London was coming in, when a lone uniformed Revenue Inspector appeared and seemed one of the more amenable of the type I asked what someone like me had to do in future i.e. could I use any of the three entrances to board. The unequivocal reply I received was that I could and, indeed, on the few occasions I have used a Borismaster I have always boarded at the rear entrance. On one occasion, on an otherwise emptyish bus on which I had ventured upstairs, I was joined almost as soon as I'd sat down by an inspector, plain clothes this time, who asked to see my ticket: I was half expecting a lecture on having to show my pass to the driver, but it didn't come. Incidentally, I believe arrangements for the 507 and 521 are as they used to be for the bendies in regard to concessionary passes i.e. there is no pretence that they have to be scrutinised by the driver.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Thanks guys, never really thought about the fact it's useful for data etc. Without knowing exactly what the pass was it's difficult to say if the driver or passenger was right

Nice to see customer service is still a thing

Oh yes! Must have given him an award. Further up an old lady with a walking stick wanted to get off but asked the driver (kindly I must ask) to move up to the bus stop to make it easier to get off. He stopped short of the stop as there was a bus there which then left, and there was a gap between the bus and the pavement, but the driver wadn't having it

'Look! There's the pavement!' Lady then say's 'No I want you to move to the bus stop so I can get off! Please!'
Driver, 'No, look the pavement is there! Get off my bus!' In the end she struggles to get off, at the same time a youth arrives, doesn't help, gives up waiting and tries to barge her out the way

 

[jay38a]

An ENCTS pass is valid on TfL buses 24 hours a day. If the pass is from outside London they show it as the oyster reader doesn't take it but soon it will, and we will push the green general pass button on the ticket machine, so the driver was in the wrong. If it's an OAP I won't call them back if the pass doesn't work.

 

[PeterC]

I have heard occasional stories of valid cards being refused in London and Yorkshire.

The only case that I have known myself was in Bucks where there is a local arrangement to accept cards from 9am and an Arriva driver was refusing them at 9:25

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nice to see customer service is still a thing

A lot of TfL bus drivers don't "do" customer service nor give a monkey's about revenue protection; many seem to hark back to when that was the conductor's job. All I ever seem to get is a grunt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Incidentally, I believe arrangements for the 507 and 521 are as they used to be for the bendies in regard to concessionary passes i.e. there is no pretence that they have to be scrutinised by the driver.

So far as I am aware the 507 and 521 are fully open-boarding, i.e. the driver has no revenue responsibilities at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh yes! Must have given him an award. Further up an old lady with a walking stick wanted to get off but asked the driver (kindly I must ask) to move up to the bus stop to make it easier to get off. He stopped short of the stop as there was a bus there which then left, and there was a gap between the bus and the pavement, but the driver wadn't having it

For some reason it used to be TfL policy, in the "Big Red Book", to pull up a few inches from the kerb, though many drivers seem to think 2 feet is acceptable per the old Routemaster days.

Now it says:

3.
You must always pull in close to the kerb at bus stops wherever
possible. Before you open the doors, assess whether passengers
will need you to kneel the bus, especially if they have to step up on
to the platform. Please kneel the bus if someone asks you.

https://www.transportforall.org.uk/files/bigredbook2014.pdf if anyone is interested.

 

[moogal]

Seemingly, a large proportion of passengers on some routes e.g. the 25 were owners of such passes, as my observations showed there was little Oyster usage on some journeys - there were some remarkably young-looking 'oldies' amongst us, and I recollect one or two mass evacuations when ticket inspectors were spotted at an upcoming stop!

There wasn't (probably still isn't) any requirement for Travelcard/passholders to touch in on open boarding buses, much as TfL might prefer everyone to for their data. It was only PAYG Oyster users who needed to touch in.

 

[plcd1]

There wasn't (probably still isn't) any requirement for Travelcard/passholders to touch in on open boarding buses, much as TfL might prefer everyone to for their data. It was only PAYG Oyster users who needed to touch in.

In the latest Conditions of Carriage I can't find any obligation for someone with a Travelcard or other season ticket to touch in on any bus! Plenty of info if using Oyster PAYG or a contactless payment card but not for season ticket users. Loads of requirements about touching in if using a rail mode / service. I may have read it too quickly but somewhat astonished by an apparent gap.

 

[matt_world2004]

The ticket machine has a keypad for when there is ticket acceptance for a certain route they will enter the cost centre number of the train operating company any 'other' tickets generated on the etm will be charged to the TOCS cost centre. There are seprperate buttons for concessionary passes outside London and paper staff tickets. As well as travel cards and bus passes.

 

[PermitToTravel]

They're the same ticket machines at they had when they took cash.

I wonder, if they can't read "foreign" ENCTS cards, whether they can't read other ITSO cards, some of which have valid London travelcards!

 

[Busaholic]

In the latest Conditions of Carriage I can't find any obligation for someone with a Travelcard or other season ticket to touch in on any bus! Plenty of info if using Oyster PAYG or a contactless payment card but not for season ticket users. Loads of requirements about touching in if using a rail mode / service. I may have read it too quickly but somewhat astonished by an apparent gap.

I suspect you haven't missed it. It never used to be in Conditions of Carriage and, until Oyster gets the capability to accept these (if it ever happens) it's easier for officialdom to ignore the situation.

 

[jay38a]

They're the same ticket machines at they had when they took cash.

I wonder, if they can't read "foreign" ENCTS cards, whether they can't read other ITSO cards, some of which have valid London travelcards!

ITSO cards with travelcards on them now do work on the oyster readers.

 

[PermitToTravel]

That's great to hear, I wonder why it doesn't work with ENCTS cards

Welcome to the forum btw Jay, I've always enjoyed reading your posts on the bus forum

 

[Busaholic]

That's great to hear, I wonder why it doesn't work with ENCTS cards

Welcome to the forum btw Jay, I've always enjoyed reading your posts on the bus forum

I don't know the answer to your query, but I'm only on my second ENCTS card eight and a half years after being on my first, so it could be a matter of the data present on the card, awaiting a time when all current cards have the same relevant data?

P.S. My driving licence is a paper one without photo ID too, and perfectly legal!

 

[matt_world2004]

This file goes into some detail about what every button on the etm does and what tickets are accepted

https://www.transportforall.org.uk/files/bigredbook2014.pdf

 

[CatfordCat]

I think the trouble is that Oyster was earlier than some of the current ITSO standards.

I believe TfL are working on it, though.

 

[Deerfold]

I think the trouble is that Oyster was earlier than some of the current ITSO standards.

I believe TfL are working on it, though.

Oyster predates the original ITSO agreements. However Oyster readers at stations have been able to read ITSO cards since September 2014, and in February 2014 TfL were expecting to be able to read ITSO cards on buses by the end of that year so I'm not sure what the delay has been.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ggoMAU&usg=AFQjCNHFbuuG9e4uwiOkK2cLo2WACGcXow

 

[Wolfie]

An ENCTS pass is valid on TfL buses 24 hours a day. If the pass is from outside London they show it as the oyster reader doesn't take it but soon it will, and we will push the green general pass button on the ticket machine, so the driver was in the wrong. If it's an OAP I won't call them back if the pass doesn't work.

As a London Council taxpayer I wonder just why I should subsidise travel for pensioners from everywhere in England....

 

[PermitToTravel]

Pensioners all over England get free bus travel all over England, it's not just a London thing.

 

[Wolfie]

Pensioners all over England get free bus travel all over England, it's not just a London thing.

I know that, but certainly not 24/7 as is currently on offer in London

 

[matt_world2004]

As a London Council taxpayer I wonder just why I should subsidise travel for pensioners from everywhere in England....

You don't where the pensioner boards the bus is who pays the fare, for example if the pensioner boards the 258 at watford junction . The borough of Watford pay the fare even though its a london bus service. It is slightly different for trains,where I believe it goes on the ITSO data on the freedom pass and the council where the pensioner is resident is billed directly. When there services cross the greater london boundary TfL receive a grant from those county councils that are served by the bus service. If by cutting that grant, it makes the service uneconomical for TfL to run, they will cut the bus back to just beyond the greater London boundary. With the cuts to bus services by surrey county council, I would be very suprised if the 465 continues to run all the way to dorking next year.

 

[Deerfold]

As a London Council taxpayer I wonder just why I should subsidise travel for pensioners from everywhere in England....

Perhaps to encourage them to come and visit and spend money in London?

When there services cross the greater london boundary TfL receive a grant from those county councils that are served by the bus service. If by cutting that grant, it makes the service uneconomical for TfL to run, they will cut the bus back to just beyond the greater London boundary. With the cuts to bus services by surrey county council, I would be very suprised if the 465 continues to run all the way to dorking next year.

Although Surrey CC does contribute to the costs of the 465, this is not always the case where a route crosses the boundary. Slough does not pay for the 81, Hertfordshire does not pay for the 142 or 258 (apart from the usual ENTCS payments they would make for any route).

 

[Busaholic]

You don't where the pensioner boards the bus is who pays the fare, for example if the pensioner boards the 258 at watford junction . The borough of Watford pay the fare even though its a london bus service. It is slightly different for trains,where I believe it goes on the ITSO data on the freedom pass and the council where the pensioner is resident is billed directly. When there services cross the greater london boundary TfL receive a grant from those county councils that are served by the bus service. If by cutting that grant, it makes the service uneconomical for TfL to run, they will cut the bus back to just beyond the greater London boundary. With the cuts to bus services by surrey county council, I would be very suprised if the 465 continues to run all the way to dorking next year.

Each authority recompenses the bus company that accepts the pass, wherever it may have been issued ; it is immaterial where the passholder lives. London is a special case, of course, as in so many things in that there is no recompense due in the case of services contracted by Transport for London. Cornwall Council has to pay for the use of passes by holidaymakers, just as the long-suffering residents have to pay by far the dearest water rates in the country to keep the beaches from sewage and keep the non-contributing tourists coming!

 

[Robertj21a]

I know that, but certainly not 24/7 as is currently on offer in London

I doubt that most ENCTS holders even realise that they can use it in London for longer than the usual statutory limits. Why does it need to be different anyway ?

 

[Busaholic]

I doubt that most ENCTS holders even realise that they can use it in London for longer than the usual statutory limits. Why does it need to be different anyway ?

Many of those passholders may purchase Travelcards or get an Oyster card when they are in London and not bother with their bus passes. When I'm in London there are few days on which I only use buses, these basically being when I confine myself to the mid and outer reaches of south London, and even then I can get tempted by a tram, on which I have to pay.

 

[Deerfold]

I doubt that most ENCTS holders even realise that they can use it in London for longer than the usual statutory limits. Why does it need to be different anyway ?

It makes it easier for drivers - if non-London ENTCS pass holders had a time limit whilst London ones didn't it'll slow down boarding and gives drivers yet another ticket rule to remember.

I doubt there's a huge number of non-London ENTCS pass holders using buses in London between 2300 and 0930.