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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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ComUtoR

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.. you have 3 hours left could you do xy or z to assist.

They say it all the bloody time. I've been held to time during disruption and ran late on many many occasions. I have also been sent home on many occasions.

James you just don't listen. They can, and will hold you to time and ask you to help out. IF POSSIBLE.
 
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Carlisle

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Even after this dispute is over the legacy of what has happened will roll on. It will take a very long time before the goodwill most TOC's benefit from is built up again. Whatever the eventual outcome I don't believe anyone can believe this can be seen as a success. Too many bridges have been burnt. I suppose it's a question as to whether the eventual outcome is worth what it has cost.
Many of us remember the large number of DOO schemes introduced in the BR Network South East era with fairly little industrial action and resultant bad feeling
Unions have now altered their policy and aggressively oppose any new DOO schemes, however in doing so they must appreciate sometimes these long campaigns won't be unanimously victorious for them and be prepared take their share of responsibility for the aftermath
 
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redbutton

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Many of us remember the large number of DOO schemes introduced in the BR Network South East era with fairly little industrial action and resultant bad feeling
Unions have now altered their policy and aggressively oppose any new DOO schemes, however in doing so they must appreciate sometimes these long campaigns won't be unanimously victorious for them and be prepared take their share of responsibility for the aftermath

The safety culture is completely different now compared to BR. Night and day.

Also, train formations, passenger loadings, platform crowding, congestion on the network, and the impact of health and safety legislation all need to be considered.

The railway of today bears little resemblance to the railway around the time DOO was introduced, particularly in London and the SE.
 

JamesTT

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Rather than reply to individual posts. I was not suggesting that traincrew assist during disruption if they can't. But from what I have witnessed they very rarely do, and sorry I don't believe all of those wouldn't have been able to. I will restate an early comment, this was the situation before the recent issues had arose.

Sorry but please can we stop this nonsense that traincrew are these deity like figures who are beyond reproach and do no wrong.
 

infobleep

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Rather than reply to individual posts. I was not suggesting that traincrew assist during disruption if they can't. But from what I have witnessed they very rarely do, and sorry I don't believe all of those wouldn't have been able to. I will restate an early comment, this was the situation before the recent issues had arose.

Sorry but please can we stop this nonsense that traincrew are these deity like figures who are beyond reproach and do no wrong.

Only if people stop the nonsense that GTR; the DfT and the government are these deity like figures who are beyond reproach and do no wrong.

There are things that aren't right on all sides but I do feel overall the guard should remain. Thus I support the strike.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
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LowLevel

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Rather than reply to individual posts. I was not suggesting that traincrew assist during disruption if they can't. But from what I have witnessed they very rarely do, and sorry I don't believe all of those wouldn't have been able to. I will restate an early comment, this was the situation before the recent issues had arose.

Sorry but please can we stop this nonsense that traincrew are these deity like figures who are beyond reproach and do no wrong.

The whole point is that you're making no point. Some traincrew are unhelpful. Some shop staff will shut early if they get half a chance. Some politicians and police officers are crooked. Some bus drivers will drive past you at the stop. Some priests abuse kids. Some couriers don't even try and deliver your parcels. Some bin men will take any excuse to leave anything. Some taxi drivers will rinse you when you've had a few beers. Some civil servants lie. Some paper boys chuck their bag in the canal. Some businesses pollute their environment and some managers fiddle the books.

What you're banging on about is human nature. There are some patently useless and unhelpful traincrew. There are plenty of useless and probably downright unpleasant people in the world in general. I still assert that 'very rarely do' is total rubbish except in an industrial dispute and as unlike the rest of us who have been open to some degree about what we do if not who we are, on both sides of the debate, you just keep making points that seem to have little to do with anything that cast wide ranging generalisations that you can't prove and that are actually rather offensive, without saying what your background is and how you've come to this position as an all seeing eye.

I work at a depot with traincrew in 3 figures. I could count on the fingers of two hands at most those in both grades who won't lift a finger to help, ever. They're generally the same people who are about as popular as the trots with their colleagues as well because they inevitably get caught up in covering their work. But as you keep being told, if I am spare and I'm told 'there's 9 hours 15 minutes of work to do with a legal break in it' then whether I like it not, and whether it's comprised of one diagram or bits of 4, is irrelevant, I have to do it.

Refusing a direct instruction on the railway on anything but safety grounds is still gross misconduct.
 

ComUtoR

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Sorry but please can we stop this nonsense that traincrew are these deity like figures who are beyond reproach and do no wrong.

Going home early from work is not "wrong"

No doubt many people have been sent home early from work at some point but if a Guard does it with a smile then they are the devil...
 

Carlisle

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The safety culture is completely different now compared to BR. Night and day.

Also, train formations, passenger loadings, platform crowding, congestion on the network, and the impact of health and safety legislation all need to be considered.

The railway of today bears little resemblance to the railway around the time DOO was introduced, particularly in London and the SE.
Those arguments may well carry more weight if the unions were prepared to negotie either a deal or no deal depending more significantly on local issues like loadings, train lengths , station calls, etc instead of merely rallying their membership to dig in every time the slightest extension of DOO is proposed for a long and possibly quite bitter campaign of industrial action
 
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AlterEgo

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Rather than reply to individual posts. I was not suggesting that traincrew assist during disruption if they can't. But from what I have witnessed they very rarely do, and sorry I don't believe all of those wouldn't have been able to. I will restate an early comment, this was the situation before the recent issues had arose.

Sorry but please can we stop this nonsense that traincrew are these deity like figures who are beyond reproach and do no wrong.

Traincrew aren't deities, and I've made my own criticisms of guard visibility on this thread, but to suggest that "traincrew rarely assist" is a gross generalisation and has no basis in reality. I speak from experience as a passenger and as a former TOC employee (I used to sit next to a resource controller in the control room).
 

Dave1987

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Why is it naive to expect someone who has 3 hours of work left to not disappear, when the bleep hits the fan. For manager's to have the cohones to say, you have 3 hours left could you do xy or z to assist. You love using the word naive when referring to me. I can assure you I know a lot more than you think I do

Well to me (and others by the looks of it) you are displaying incredible naivety. Making out that drivers and guards during disruption refuse to do anything apart from go home early is completely wrong for the most part. As others have said there will always be bad apples like in any organisation. When the proverbial hits the fan and your train is cancelled you go to the mess room and keep you work phone switched on and wait for the call. If the DTM asks you do do something that will take you over your hours you are perfectly entitled to refuse or ask for recompense. If you do know more than I think you do then maybe you should stop making such sweeping outlandish statements? For what it's worth during disruption I've never known anyone go home 3 hours early, in fact for the most part traincrew end up late home as they are not at their home depot when the disruption starts.
 
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HowardGWR

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I suppose this latest stuff has something to do with SR DOO but I'm b*gg*red if I can spot it. Thread drift in evidence?
 

BestWestern

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I suppose this latest stuff has something to do with SR DOO but I'm b*gg*red if I can spot it. Thread drift in evidence?

I think the meaningful conversation ran dry quite some time ago. The thread has been survivng on anti staff and union froth for a good while now.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I think the meaningful conversation ran dry quite some time ago. The thread has been survivng on anti staff and union froth for a good while now.

I blame the RMT for not issuing another one of their iconic press releases that will be worth at least another 50 postings, ranging from rage to humour appreciation amongst our website membership...:D
 

hwl

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I blame the RMT for not issuing another one of their iconic press releases that will be worth at least another 50 postings, ranging from rage to humour appreciation amongst our website membership...:D

The RMT are probably to busy being unhappy with the new GTR management appointments in the last few days to issue a statement...
 

causton

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HH

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From the GTR management change front:

Mick Cash, general secretary of the RMT, said Brown’s appointment “opened the door to the real possibility of a new approach”.

He said RMT would write to Brown seeking “genuine and meaningful talks” about the dispute to start “as soon as possible”.

Cash also said that Crowther’s appointment at HS1 raised “serious union concerns about the company objectives going forwards” and RMT would seek assurances about HS1 staff’s jobs and working conditions.
 

sarahj

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Anyway, latest update:

From next monday.

Arun valley services become DOO between Three Bridges and London T
Horsham - Dorking trains become DOO
More Btn to Vic services become DOO

Services may have a guard as an assist.
 

tsr

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Unless they are formed of 455's, in which case they will still have a Conductor.

Can imagine GTR will want 455s to leave this line for good, sooner or later - hard though it may be in various ways at the moment. There's no way to feasibly run them DOO on the Dorking-Horsham section of the Mole Valley at present - no monitors on the stations and no easy way to implement SDO for longer formations.

Unfortunately, this could lead to some quite messy diagrams in the mean time, as the timetable during most of the day doesn't really allow conductors to shuttle between Dorking and Horsham (generally, but especially not on a specific class of train, and 455s only appear sporadically).

I'm actually quite surprised that it was signed off this quickly - a rural route with "interesting" geology and cess routes; a muddle of jointed track with axle counters and other bits with track circuits, so essential to guarantee someone qualified to lay protection; no staff assistance at the smaller stations whatsoever; a station subway which regularly floods at Ockley (if there's not a conductor who can react to this, you could drop off passengers and leave them stranded on the Up platform with not so much as an emergency telephone) - no... very, very surprised!

Also... y'know... revenue on Saturdays from the tourists, cyclists and hikers...
 
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infobleep

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Anyway, latest update:

From next monday.

Arun valley services become DOO between Three Bridges and London T
Horsham - Dorking trains become DOO
More Btn to Vic services become DOO

Services may have a guard as an assist.
Well don't Southern claim there will be a person on board whenever possible. If they start running more services out someone on board questions may be asked. Of course the can just ignore them as the Government and thus DfT won't care.

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74A

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Anything from Aslef on this?

Why would there be. They tried once and the courts told them they could not strike due to DOO being a normal part of their contract and not a legitimate reason to take action. Cost them about half a million quid I believe.
 

BestWestern

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Why would there be. They tried once and the courts told them they could not strike due to DOO being a normal part of their contract and not a legitimate reason to take action. Cost them about half a million quid I believe.

The Court ruled about a local agreement, I believe. They are still, I presume, opposed to extensions of DOO. But, as you say, perhaps they're opting to keep the profile low for the time being on this one.
 

74A

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The Court ruled about a local agreement, I believe. They are still, I presume, opposed to extensions of DOO. But, as you say, perhaps they're opting to keep the profile low for the time being on this one.

If you read the court ruling in full it says that DOO is what drivers do as part of there normal duties. So agreement is not required with ASLEF to run longer DOO trains or DOO trains over new routes. Drivers have to do it. It would be the same with a guard working a train over a new route or operating a new type of traction.

Since the court case ASLEF have made no further attempt to stop the introduction by GTR of new DOO routes and I doubt they will.
 

BestWestern

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If you read the court ruling in full it says that DOO is what drivers do as part of there normal duties. So agreement is not required with ASLEF to run longer DOO trains or DOO trains over new routes. Drivers have to do it. It would be the same with a guard working a train over a new route or operating a new type of traction.

Since the court case ASLEF have made no further attempt to stop the introduction by GTR of new DOO routes and I doubt they will.

We may have to wait for a different, non-DOO franchise to be attacked then before we get any further reaction.
 

redbutton

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Anything from Aslef on this?

Nothing publicly, though there has been an internal circular saying that the proper tests specified by RSSB in the Group Standards for clearing a route for DOO (test trains run under all possible lighting conditions, etc) may not have been done, and the executive committee will be meeting to decide what to do about it.

In the mean time, they have asked drivers not to refuse work so as not to jeopardise any future ballot on the issue, like what happened with the 12-car Gatwick dispute. (One driver refusing to work a 12-car was ruled to be illegal industrial action prior to an official ballot, therefore the entire dispute would have been nullified had the parties not settled out of court.)

Personally, I think it's just another example of GTR placing performance targets before safety, which (although I sincerely hope it doesn't) will probably result in casualties some day. I wasn't around for Railtrack, but from what I've read it sounds eerily similar.
 
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ainsworth74

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We may have to wait for a different, non-DOO franchise to be attacked then before we get any further reaction.

I think that's likely. Northern for example have no DOO whatsoever so it's highly unlikely that their contracts will contain provisions for it.
 
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