Hypothetical situation regarding PRIV fares

[bramling]

Something which I've been mulling over:

One boards a train at an unstaffed station, for example, on Northern.

When the conductor comes round you ask for a ticket complete with PRIV, conductor refuses to sell it and says "don't worry".

When you get to your destination there are revenue there.

What would happen next?

Would it make any difference if the revenue are employed by the TOC or one of the security firms?

 

[najaB]

What would happen next?

One would assume that the guard would be willing to back you up and say that they allowed travel sans-billet. Case closed.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Something which I've been mulling over:

One boards a train at an unstaffed station, for example, on Northern.

When the conductor comes round you ask for a ticket complete with PRIV, conductor refuses to sell it and says "don't worry".

When you get to your destination there are revenue there.

What would happen next?

Would it make any difference if the revenue are employed by the TOC or one of the security firms?

You boarded at a station with no working ticket facilities so you haven't committed any offence, provided you are willing to pay at your destination.

 

[philthetube]

Be very careful, the Guard does not have the authority to give you a free ride and so may well deny that he did if asked. If the opportunity was there to buy a ticket and you didn't you are liable for prosecution.

 

[najaB]

...the Guard does not have the authority to give you a free ride...

I assume that you mean the guard may not have the commercial authority to do so, as they most assuredly have the legal authority.

 

[Haywain]

Or your continuing journey takes you through several sets of barriers after leaving his train? That has happened to me, and it's a real pain. It meant that on arrival at the first station I had to spend some time (10 minutes or so) queuing at the very busy ticket office to buy a ticket to continue. And the guard, through his generosity, saved me about 20p!

 

[TEW]

In practice you are unlikely to encounter trouble, particularly if it was TOC employed revenue staff you came across.

 

[6Gman]

This is why I always decline such offers and insist on paying.

I worked 20 years to gain my travel facilities and don't intend to lose them over a £5 'freebie'.

And my wife would kill me ! !

 

[yorkie]

What would happen next?

Anyone asking for a ticket from an unstaffed station who was unable to buy their fare before boarding who simply requests a ticket from that station is very unlikely to be asked why they did not have a ticket, so I wouldn't worry. The Guard isn't going to be able to get to everyone all the time, and isn't always going to have a working ticket machine. If questioned, then you would truthfully be able to say you did request a ticket but were not sold one.

 

[Elecman]

This is why I always decline such offers and insist on paying.

I worked 20 years to gain my travel facilities and don't intend to lose them over a £5 'freebie'.

And my wife would kill me ! !

I do exactly the same, although it is sometimes very difficult to persuade the guard/ train manager to actually issue the ticket or they just offer to charge for a last station stop to your destination. I have even more trouble when travelling in 'oranges' to buy any ticket as the ussual response on presenting my money/ debit card is Network Rail your ok mate!

 

[Bellbell]

GWR revenue (I don't know if agency or TOC employed) have taken a dim view of this, and I believe took someone's details recently. I apologise for the vague story but I'm repeating what was told to me, I think the staff member either boarded at a staffed station or had an opportunity to buy at an interchange station and so revenue were not happy. I don't know whether the guard had come round or not during the journey.

 

[yorkie]

...or had an opportunity to buy at an interchange station ....

If they had no opportunity at the origin, then it would depend on whether or not there was sufficient time at the interchange time between trains.

 

[Gemz91]

Kind of happened to me once. When I first started on the railways I went through a stage of asking guards before I boarded if I could have a free ride (was told this was the thing to do, so assumed it was alright to do. Just buy PRIV tickets now instead to save the hassle). Guard on one train said it was fine, no problem. Soon after we set off an RPI came down checking tickets. I told him what happened, but he told me I had to leave the train at the next station with him.

I did so, and he took me to an office, taking my address, passes and so on. Just after he told me they'd be in touch with me, his manager/supervisor came into the room. On seeing my railway passes, he asked me what was happening. When I told him, he basically told his RPI to stop being stupid, and that railway staff are railway staff what ever company they work for and not to do it again.

The RPI's manager walked over to my next train with me, apologising for his RPI and the delay he caused me, basically calling him a jobsworth.

I just buy PRIV's now to make things easier.

 

[185]

I (allegedly) would ask where they are going - if it's gated, flog them one from the 2nd to last stop. Used to get it at Leeds and Picc a lot. In the modern world where most Priv holders also hold TOC passes, that alleviates the problem somewhat.

Allegedly. :P

 

[Surreytraveller]

So its okay for staff to fiddle, but not the public...

 

[najaB]

So its okay for staff to fiddle, but not the public...

It's legal for a guard/RPI to allow free travel for part or all of a journey. Company policy is another matter.

 

[35B]

It's legal for a guard/RPI to allow free travel for part or all of a journey. Company policy is another matter.

Not to mention fairness.

 

[bb21]

Discretion is your keyword.

Don't pretend that everyone is whiter than white.

 

[6Gman]

Discretion is your keyword.

Don't pretend that everyone is whiter than white.

And of course such things never happen in other industries ...

 

[Barn]

It's legal for a guard/RPI to allow free travel for part or all of a journey. Company policy is another matter.

I am assuming that by 'legal' you are referring to the legality of travelling with the permission of an authorised person under railway law?

The question of whether it is actually 'legal' for the guard to allow the free travel is more complicated and it is possible that non-railway specific criminal law is technically involved. See for example section 4 of the Fraud Act 2006 which relates to dishonestly abusing a position in which the defendant is expected to safeguard the financial interests of another person (e.g. his employer).

A prosecution may be unlikely in those circumstances but that doesn't mean that the guard is strictly acting 'legally'.

 

[185]

If a member of staff chooses to use discretion to allow another to travel, that is within his powers. That discretion is often given to passengers with invalid tickets - I use it many, many times a day.

It should be considered that lone working staff would benefit from a second person on board allowed travel... so many situations where off duty staff have assisted.

The management who have tried to reduce discretion often find themselves in bother - one manager from another TOC was passed to me last month, no valid ticket, showed a pass from his company adamant it was valid - but no. I could have put him forward for prosecution, but chose to allow him travel with a stern warning, and a reminder that he is a part of the management that threaten us for using discretion, then break the rules themselves.

 

[najaB]

I am assuming that by 'legal' you are referring to the legality of travelling with the permission of an authorised person under railway law?

Correct. If, however, company policy doesn't allow it then as you point out they may be guilty of a fraud against the company.

 

[TMD Tom]

I had an issue a little while back whilst using my Priv. I travelled from a station where the ticket office was closed so there was only a TVM in operation. So being unable to purchase a ticket with discount applied I boarded the train with the intention to purchase at my destination (which does have an open ticket office). There was an RPI on board the train and on explaining the situation he advised he would 'let me off this time but I should go out of my way to get a priv discount if the ticket office was not open next time'. I thanked him anyway and purchased my ticket as intended at my destination.

I would have expected the NRCoT to apply equally to Priv discounted tickets, so surely there should have been no issue with me buying a Priv at my destination when the ticket office is closed.

 

[BestWestern]

So its okay for staff to fiddle, but not the public...

Do the staff in McDonalds eat the chips?

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

Theres not a cat in hells chance I would be on a train NV. These passes are my life line. I saw someone the other day filling a box in on the train as the conductor approached. Anyone could have seen him filling it in. I thought about saying something but didn't want to risk a gobful of abuse.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Do the staff in McDonalds eat the chips?

They do but they are allowed to.

 

[Deerfold]

Do the staff in McDonalds eat the chips?

Supermarket staff have bee sacked before now for eating food that has been taken off the shelves to be destroyed.

 

[gray1404]

It's legal for a guard/RPI to allow free travel for part or all of a journey. Company policy is another matter.

The word "allowed" rather then "legal" would be better suited.

I do fear that the word legal an illegal is overused when it should be "right" or "wrong". (and this is something I am seeing on an ever increasing basis on this forum sadly.)

Just because something is not right does not by default make it illegal and against the law.

 

[najaB]

The word "allowed" rather then "legal" would be better suited.

In this case "legal" is the appropriate term as I'm referring to a power specifically granted by legislation, but they may well not be "allowed" to do so by company policy.

 

[bb21]

I had an issue a little while back whilst using my Priv. I travelled from a station where the ticket office was closed so there was only a TVM in operation. So being unable to purchase a ticket with discount applied I boarded the train with the intention to purchase at my destination (which does have an open ticket office). There was an RPI on board the train and on explaining the situation he advised he would 'let me off this time but I should go out of my way to get a priv discount if the ticket office was not open next time'. I thanked him anyway and purchased my ticket as intended at my destination.

I would have expected the NRCoT to apply equally to Priv discounted tickets, so surely there should have been no issue with me buying a Priv at my destination when the ticket office is closed.

Rubbish.

Purchase at first opportunity. Someone clearly doesn't know his job.

When no facilities are available to issue priv fares, NRCoT apply as per normal, and revenue staff are specifically requested to apply discretion with priv holders.