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Using someone else's travel pass

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Clip

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You dont have to speak to a solicitor but if you can get a free 30 minute consultation with one then give that a try.

DaveNewcastle will be able to fill you in exactly on what to do next but you must go and explain everything truthfully. If its 4 weeks then make sure it is because they will have checked journey history of which I think they can check for 8 weeks so be aware that they would have this information at hand already and saying somethign different when they have evidence to show otherwise isnt going to look good.

But good luck.
 
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R1971

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You dont have to speak to a solicitor but if you can get a free 30 minute consultation with one then give that a try.

DaveNewcastle will be able to fill you in exactly on what to do next but you must go and explain everything truthfully. If its 4 weeks then make sure it is because they will have checked journey history of which I think they can check for 8 weeks so be aware that they would have this information at hand already and saying somethign different when they have evidence to show otherwise isnt going to look good.

But good luck.

I have worked out the exact days that the pass was used, I have instructed a solicitor who will attend the meeting with me along with a barrister. I will be honest and truthful but my solicitor will advise me as to what to say I guess. Am not looking forward to this at all I have to say, I just want to pay my fine and move on.
 

Clip

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Not sure you need a barrister as you are not in court yet and this is a first step interview with yourself so you may be spending lots of money on having them both there for no reason.

TfL dont like abuse of passes so you may actually need to save some money for a day in court im afraid so dont take a barrister with you as that will cost a fortune.
 

BanburyBlue

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Looking at R1971's post, I'm wondering if a solicitor is sensible?

I agree, if it was just fare evasion, then not required as probably fine and compensation.

However the language in the letter doesn't say this. It mentions irregular usage etc.

"the interview will be in relation to irregular usage of oyster card no xxxx which gives us cause to suspect you of historical offences whilst using Tfl services, contrary to the Tfl conditions of carriage."

I don't want to scaremonger, but using someone else's Oyster card could be construed as Fraud - which is a totally different ball game!
 
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R1971

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Looking at R1971's post, I'm wondering if a solicitor is sensible?

I agree, if it was just fare evasion, then not required as probably fine and compensation.

However the language in the letter doesn't say this. It mentions irregular usage etc.

"the interview will be in relation to irregular usage of oyster card no xxxx which gives us cause to suspect you of historical offences whilst using Tfl services, contrary to the Tfl conditions of carriage."

I don't want to scaremonger, but using someone else's Oyster card could be construed as Fraud?

thank you.
I have no historical offences, was annual season ticket holder up to 14 May 2016 then went onto pay as you go as was deciding whether to move jobs so did not want to take out annual season ticket loan if I was going to leave current employment. they would be able to check that I presume that I had season tickets up to that date. the pay as you go card was purchased through a machine so not registered just topped up every few days with cash or card payment to cover travel
 

AlterEgo

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Looking at R1971's post, I'm wondering if a solicitor is sensible?

I agree, if it was just fare evasion, then not required as probably fine and compensation.

However the language in the letter doesn't say this. It mentions irregular usage etc.

"the interview will be in relation to irregular usage of oyster card no xxxx which gives us cause to suspect you of historical offences whilst using Tfl services, contrary to the Tfl conditions of carriage."

I don't want to scaremonger, but using someone else's Oyster card could be construed as Fraud - which is a totally different ball game!

This is a serious matter. It involves a police officer's travel pass. Misusing anything that belongs to a police officer is automatically a red alarm bells situation.

I suspect they're angling for a RoRA prosecution, a recordable offence.

I would recommend speaking to a solicitor, though there are better legal brains on here than I.
 

R1971

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This is a serious matter. It involves a police officer's travel pass. Misusing anything that belongs to a police officer is automatically a red alarm bells situation.

I suspect they're angling for a RoRA prosecution, a recordable offence.

I would recommend speaking to a solicitor, though there are better legal brains on here than I.

yes I appreciate serious, as you can see it was my Sister's, she knows all of this we are not on speaking terms at all since this happened which is fair enough I was stupid to do it and equally stupid as it could have seriously jeopardised her position. I am not out to tell anything other than the truth which I have done all along, a recordable offence I can accept that, is that for life or a specific period of time? I am meeting my solicitor on Friday afternoon.
 
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BanburyBlue

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This is a serious matter. It involves a police officer's travel pass. Misusing anything that belongs to a police officer is automatically a red alarm bells situation.

I suspect they're angling for a RoRA prosecution, a recordable offence.

I would recommend speaking to a solicitor, though there are better legal brains on here than I.

Apologies, what is RoRA?
 

najaB

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...a recordable office I accept that is that for life or a specific period of time? I am meeting my solicitor on Friday afternoon.
It will remain on the Police National Computer forever, but will only appear on Disclosure and Barring Service checks for twelve months. Only the police and security services will be able to see it after that time.
 

R1971

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Not sure you need a barrister as you are not in court yet and this is a first step interview with yourself so you may be spending lots of money on having them both there for no reason.

TfL dont like abuse of passes so you may actually need to save some money for a day in court im afraid so dont take a barrister with you as that will cost a fortune.

Thank you clip.

I have some "rainy" day money not much but willing to spend it on this, the solicitor is reasonable at 132.00 for first hours consultation, once they know my full story I will advise TfL by email that I will be attending with a solicitor and barrister, the price for this is 650.00, I agree this is a lot of money but if I attended the meeting alone I would melt into a blubbering wreck the minute they start to question me, I am prettified of what is going to happen next. You will probably think I am nuts and you are partly right as I regret the day I used the pass but I did and I just have to get on with it. I just want to get his over and done with, I have no idea what to expect in the interview or how long it will last for even but after Friday I will as my solicitor will be able to advise on all of that. I have visions of losing my job, being sent to prison, losing my home (as no job to pay mortgage etc) my mind is running away with the endless scenarios that could happen but will not know that for some time I guess. This could go on for months although I guess from the day they caught me to now it is all moving along rather swiftly.
 

R1971

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As per previous posts, going with a solicitor and a barrister is overkill.

Is it really, I am absolutely petrified, having never been in trouble before in my life, not even a detention at school (many moons ago) this is a huge issue for me and I am very very scared of what the outcome maybe and the effect it will have on my life. As soon as I opened the letter I thought I was going to pass out reading it, I felt sick to my gut as I thought I would get a "straight to court summons" with huge fine but now an interview so it drags on even more. God if I could preach to the people that are still out there mis-using the passes I would, if you have a conscience don't do it the worry of the whole process (IMHO) is far worse and takes over your whole life.
If my employer found out any of this I would be immediately dismissed from my job even more scary, god do TfL notify your employers?? Not that they have those details.
 
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najaB

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I have visions of losing my job, being sent to prison, losing my home (as no job to pay mortgage etc) my mind is running away with the endless scenarios that could happen but will not know that for some time I guess. This could go on for months although I guess from the day they caught me to now it is all moving along rather swiftly.
You are *NOT* going to go to prison. While it's true that, technically, it is possible to receive a custodial sentence for a RoRA conviction that will only happen to persistent, repeat offenders in high-value cases (think £10K+).

I can't speak for all employers, but in my experience if you are doing well at work I would be very surprised if the sacked you for what is - in the grand scheme of things - a minor offence. That's not to say that's not serious, but it's not on the same level as assault, GBH or manslaughter.

Keep your head about you, don't admit to anything that they don't already know about and don't deny anything that they already do and you'll come out of the other side of this intact.
 

furlong

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Take a bit of perspective.

The sorts of things they may try to decide:

Do you understand what you've done, why it's wrong, and are you likely to do anything like this again?

Is there any evidence to build a case against the rightful pass holder?

How much money have they lost through your behaviour?
- You may calculate one figure; they may calculate a higher one. What would the court decide? We have seen a high-profile recent case where the court decided against a train company and awarded only the lower figure the defendant had calculated himself.

They'll want to recover their costs (typically high 3-figure sums by the time an interview is involved). They'll put a number on this. A court might decide this is too high and award a lower figure.

Differences in these figures provide room for negotiation and certainty - an out-of-court settlement can have advantages for both parties.

Courts are quite busy enough without wanting to hear cases that could reasonably have been resolved without their involvement, so your solicitor should know what to say to maximise the chance of a satisfactory resolution out-of-court - or if TfL does take the matter to court to try to turn the court towards your point of view, showing that this use of the court's time was avoidable.
 

6Gman

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As per previous posts, going with a solicitor and a barrister is overkill.

And since the letter from TfL refers to being accompanied "by a friend or a solicitor" they may refuse to allow a second companion into the interview. In which case a lot of money will have been wasted.
 

furlong

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And since the letter from TfL refers to being accompanied "by a friend or a solicitor" they may refuse to allow a second companion into the interview.

And how precisely would that be in pursuit of the interest of justice?
 

DaveNewcastle

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The purpose of the interview is primarily to establish the losses that the Company (or other Companies) have incurred. This is achieved by simple questions and answers, in a structured interview, to establish the facts, which will be used to decide how to proceed.

A secondary purpose will be to identify any other relevant information which might assist the investigators.

It is not to negotiate a resolution. It is not to determine your remorse, not to hear your reasons for doing what you did, and not to hear what you have learned from the experience (though it would be wise to touch on each of these at some point in the interview).

If you have a friend, family member or solicitor (any high street criminal solicitor will do) with you, then they can help remind you of what you wanted to say or to take notes and definitely help you to feel less vulnerable and frightened.

BUT, if you instruct a Barrister or instruct a Solicitor to assist in mounting a Defence, then they will probably cost you a significant sum of money, and will maybe and maybe not find a fatal flaw in the Evidence which the Company has against you - they will certainly want to restrict how much more Evidence you give them - which will prolong the matter, probably increase the costs, and still leave you with the anxiety for a long time. If this is the route you choose, then ultimately, the outcome will turn on this simple question : does the Evidence which the Company already has on file give confidence that a Prosecution has a reasonable prospect of success? If they assess that it does, and if they are right, then the costs of a Barrister (or even the solicitor) would be of little help. The fine, the damages and the costs will be a high price to pay.

But perhaps the Solicitor and Barrister will find a defect in the Evidence which suggests that the Evidence does not prove the point 'beyond all reasonable doubt'. But as you have already made an admission on record, then that's a diminishing prospect.

Conversely, if you stick with the low cost, low risk approach which I have successfully advised others to adopt, and take a friend & tell the truth in the interview, accept the actual costs of the fares not paid, accept the costs of the Company's investigation, and then after all that, try to make a settlement which would be an agreeable alternative to asking the Court to decide, then your final costs might be substantially lower, and will probably be resolved sooner.

In short - its your call, but you're making a risk assessment between :
1. [with expensive legal representation at the interview] High cost, fine + actual damages + professional legal costs on both sides (far higher on your side), criminal record, process over several months, fairly high probability ;

2. [with expensive legal representation at the interview] High cost, modest prospect of absolute discharge, process over several months, fairly low probability;

3. [with a friend or a low cost Criminal Defence Solicitor at the interview] Moderate costs, very high prospect of fine + actual damages + professional legal costs on Company's side (at lower fee level, and little on yours), criminal record, process over several months.

4. [with a friend or a low cost Criminal Defence Solicitor at the interview] Moderate costs, agreed resolution between parties without trial, no prospect of fine + actual damages + professional legal costs on Company's side (at lower fee level, and little on yours), no criminal record, process over a month or so.

I can't pretend to have all the facts necessary to make the best decision for you, but it doesn't look to me as if throwing professional costs at it at this stage is increasing the probabilities of achieving the best outcomes for you.
 

Puffing Devil

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Can't add much to Dave's excellent advice.

My only thought is an issue that has been raised before by others is that this matter concerned the abuse of a BTP pass and they will take that more seriously and will also be looking to establish for themselves the extent to which the pass holder was complicit in the offence.
 

AlterEgo

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It will remain on the Police National Computer forever, but will only appear on Disclosure and Barring Service checks for twelve months. Only the police and security services will be able to see it after that time.

It will only "disappear" from a basic DBS check. It may be disclosed if an Enhanced check is requested, depending on the position being applied for.

Some jobs require you to admit to even spent convictions.
 

6Gman

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And how precisely would that be in pursuit of the interest of justice?

Not sure it's anything to do with the "pursuit of the interest of justice". If they ask you to attend and invite you to bring a person with you they may refuse to allow two. Or three. Or six.
 
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