Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[yorksrob]

The class 319s have 2 toilets for 4 carriages which works out as 1 for every two carriages. They will be doing Blackpool to Liverpool - (+ SParkway?) Which 1.5 hrs end to end the same as Newcastle - Carlisle. The last I read the accessibility mods would mean getting rid of 1 to make a single toilet for a 4 carriage set although I am not sure how accurate that is.

1 per two carriages seems to be about the right number for regional trains. Intercity trains where people could spend over two hours probably need 1 per carriage. But that is just my opinion.

It's not just a question of how long the journey, but also how intensively used it is.

Plus the fact that Northern has a lot of routes over two hours anyway on which a 158 could turn up.

In terms of the 319's, they would be better taking a leaf out of the 321's book in which case, one of the two existing toilets was left in situ whilst the accessible one was constructed elsewhere on the train. In this case, 2 loos for a four carriage train seems adequate, however the bin's are used on the North's equivalent of suburban stoppers, rather than longer distance regional services where 158's are likely to turn up.

 

[1179_Clee2]

Anybody got any reports on how refurbishments are going ???????
How's the 3 car 158 or the 155 or the 150/2 doing ???????
Anybody know if the 2 Thameslink liveried 319's are entering service ???????

The 2020 TSI PRM regulations are getting ever nearer and at this present moment Northern don't have a single train in service it will still have come 2020 that conforms to the regulations.

With ONLY 3 years 3 months or 39 months left can Northern get ALL it's trains to conform in time ??????
It is not just Northern that have this problem but other TOC's as well.

Can all UK trains be made to conform by 2020 ???????

Just look at BR designed DMU's in the 15x and 16x series that do not conform that's 450+ trains to do in 39 months, approx 12 trains a month not counting any EMU's that need doing as well.
Do the lease companies need a kick or are they leaving it to the last minute to bump up lease costs so they make more money

 

[Nevillehill]

I can't speak for others, but I genuinely can't remember the last time I used a toilet on board a train. Most journeys I make are short hops which in certain other parts of the country would be made on trains with no toilets anyway, but even on longer journeys I'm unlikely to need the use of a toilet. On local journeys the only reason toilets are provided is because they always have been, and there's uproar if anyone suggests getting rid. Once discharging onto the track is a thing of the past there'll have to be some tough decisions made, as tanks will fill up long before the unit returns to a depot with discharge facilities. Do local and regional trains on the continent have toilets provided as a matter of course?

Of course on routes like Leeds to Carlisle, toilets are likely to be needed, and the tanking issue will need looking at in those cases- how easy would it be to install facilities to allow tanks to be emptied at the bay platforms at Leeds and Carlisle? Not very easy, I imagine.

Only certain platforms at Leeds have tanking locations, also there isn't enough time between turnaround, I have seen them tanking them at Leeds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In other words, precisely the sort of routes on which 158's are used.

I should imagine it would be very expensive and difficult to install tanking facilities in a bay platform at Leeds, therefore the only sensible solution would be to leave the two existing toilets on the train.

You may have a particularly strong bladder, but that doesn't mean that you're representative of the population as a whole.

There is tanking facilities at Leeds p2c.

 

[43096]

Anybody got any reports on how refurbishments are going ???????
How's the 3 car 158 or the 155 or the 150/2 doing ???????
Anybody know if the 2 Thameslink liveried 319's are entering service ???????

The 2020 TSI PRM regulations are getting ever nearer and at this present moment Northern don't have a single train in service it will still have come 2020 that conforms to the regulations.

With ONLY 3 years 3 months or 39 months left can Northern get ALL it's trains to conform in time ??????
It is not just Northern that have this problem but other TOC's as well.
CAN ALL UK TRAINS BE MADE TO CONFORM BY 2020 ???????
Just look at BR designed DMU's in the 15x and 16x series that do not conform that's 450+ trains to do in 39 months, approx 12 trains a month not counting any EMU's that need doing as well.
Do the lease companies need a kick or are they leaving it to the last minute to bump up lease costs so they make more money

More importantly... How is your question mark key after taking such a hammering???????????????????????

 

[Adam0984]

3 car 158752 is back on Neville Hill after a partial referb at Kilmarnock and a trip to Heaton for new bogies. Hopefully shouldn't be too long till its out after familiarisation by maintenance staff and signed off by unions as safe etc.
3 car 158756 is at Kilmarnock having gone up about 3 weeks ago for the same partial referb
And a believe the 150 & 155 are getting a full referb and should be back before Christmas

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Only certain platforms at Leeds have tanking locations, also there isn't enough time between turnaround, I have seen them tanking them at Leeds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There is tanking facilities at Leeds p2c.

I wasn't aware there were any tanking facilities at Leeds currently. P2 is at least convenient for Carlisle services which are probably the services where tank capacity may be more of an issue. Although it would mean an increase in subsidy, I'd hope that if waste tanks filling up becomes a regular problem there might be some leeway to alter diagrams to allow enough turnaround time for emptying the tanks at Leeds. I would hope that "new" Northern won't be required to "sweat the assets" quite so much.

 

[1179_Clee2]

More importantly... How is your question mark key after taking such a hammering???????????????????????

My question mark key is working fine!
How is yours doing?

 

[YorkshireBear]

3 car 158752 is back on Neville Hill after a partial referb at Kilmarnock and a trip to Heaton for new bogies. Hopefully shouldn't be too long till its out after familiarisation by maintenance staff and signed off by unions as safe etc.
3 car 158756 is at Kilmarnock having gone up about 3 weeks ago for the same partial referb
And a believe the 150 & 155 are getting a full referb and should be back before Christmas

Partial in what sense. What will full mean?

 

[northwichcat]

Partial in what sense. What will full mean?

There's apparently some bits which still need to be done like the changing of the lighting to LED.

 

[Astradyne]

3 car 158752 is back on Neville Hill after a partial referb at Kilmarnock and a trip to Heaton for new bogies. Hopefully shouldn't be too long till its out after familiarisation by maintenance staff and signed off by unions as safe etc.
3 car 158756 is at Kilmarnock having gone up about 3 weeks ago for the same partial referb
And a believe the 150 & 155 are getting a full referb and should be back before Christmas

Was hoping the 150 and 155 would be back long before Xmas ... still nearly 3 months away ... and 756 back around Xmas, turn of the new year.

 

[northwichcat]

Anybody know if the 2 Thameslink liveried 319's are entering service ???????

As reported on the cascade thread apparently they won't be entering service anytime soon and will be used as Christmas trees to help improve the reliability of the 319s already in service.

 

[Brian Aylott]

As reported on the cascade thread apparently they won't be entering service anytime soon and will be used as Christmas trees to help improve the reliability of the 319s already in service.

So they have C6s, repaints and PRM mods including Universal toilets very recently so they can act as Chistmas trees
Doesn't seem very logical - is this because Northern can't afford to change the vinyls?
Brian

 

[northwichcat]

So they have C6s, repaints and PRM mods including Universal toilets very recently so they can act as Chistmas trees
Doesn't seem very logical - is this because Northern can't afford to change the vinyls?
Brian

Northern don't have anywhere to use more 319s until Network Rail electrify Bolton and/or Stalybridge

 

[Mordac]

Northern don't have anywhere to use more 319s until Network Rail electrify Bolton and/or Stalybridge

I think there's still some diesels running entirely under wires, at least at peak times.

Regardless of that, the franchise agreement states that Northern will procure 12 extra Class 319s after December 2016. I would be very surprised if it was contemplated that they would be used for spares donors rather than more services. Surely the DfT would need to sign on to this?

 

[Astradyne]

And would the leasing company allow it ... seeing as they would have probably paid for the work

 

[sd0733]

If they've not had the mods for northern such as the guards panels being fitted then they are better off keeping the others going .
Christmas trees happen all the time, one of our 350s was laid up at Northampton for at least 18 months a couple of years ago and it lost windscreens, pantograph etc. As long as they don't get too heavily stripped and can be put back together when required then it doesn't seem an issue. If they are wrecked and never run again so soon after a repaint andd mods etc then yes it is a waste but if be surprised if that happened

 

[northwichcat]

I think there's still some diesels running entirely under wires, at least at peak times.

The morning service from Crewe which is booked as 2 x 142s continues to Bolton and the afternoon Piccadilly-Hazel Grove 142 service is part of the same diagram as a Stockport-Chester service, so using an additional 319 probably wouldn't free up any DMUs and might require additional drivers to allow for the additional ECS movements that would be required.

 

[Geeves]

3 car 158752 is back on Neville Hill after a partial referb at Kilmarnock and a trip to Heaton for new bogies. Hopefully shouldn't be too long till its out after familiarisation by maintenance staff and signed off by unions as safe etc.
3 car 158756 is at Kilmarnock having gone up about 3 weeks ago for the same partial referb
And a believe the 150 & 155 are getting a full referb and should be back before Christmas

I had a look the other day Adam and the 150 that was up there is now back in traffic.

 

[1179_Clee2]

If they've not had the mods for northern such as the guards panels being fitted then they are better off keeping the others going .

The 2 319's Northern have received are part of the additional 12 that Northern are getting, so I would think they have had the mods done.

I don't think PORTERBROOK would want to pay for a additional works visit to fit.

Can anybody confirm what work has been done on them?

 

[1D53]

I had a look the other day Adam and the 150 that was up there is now back in traffic.

Are you sure?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think there's still some diesels running entirely under wires, at least at peak times.

Regardless of that, the franchise agreement states that Northern will procure 12 extra Class 319s after December 2016. I would be very surprised if it was contemplated that they would be used for spares donors rather than more services. Surely the DfT would need to sign on to this?

On your first point, all the weekday Northern services on the Chat Moss are scheduled to be 319s, on Saturdays the 'peak time extra' stopping services to Manchester are still diesel, however this may be for positioning and unit swaps. Not sure about the Wigan and Preston runs, but I think the Wigan's are all electric now.

On the second point, Northern probably don't want spares donors, but with no other routes for them to be used on there is little point in pressing them into service.

And would the leasing company allow it ... seeing as they would have probably paid for the work

If the leasing company gets it's money for the units I'm not sure they'd worry too much as they would otherwise be sitting in a siding gaining no revenue, and in a few years they'll be plenty of 319s to go round.

If they've not had the mods for northern such as the guards panels being fitted then they are better off keeping the others going....

They can't be put into use until the Guards door control mods are done. Modifications for FCC meant that only the driver could operate the doors.

....I don't think PORTERBROOK would want to pay for a additional works visit to fit....

I don't think Porterbrook would want units sitting around doing nothing waiting for a works visit either.

 

[1179_Clee2]

What is the cheapest alternative for Porterbrook?
Fit 319's with the guard's mod's with TSI PRM mod's or fit 319's with TSI PRM mod's with the guard's mod's?

 

[superkev]

If they've not had the mods for northern such as the guards panels beii ng fitted then they are better off keeping the others going .
Christmas trees happen all the time, one of our 350s was laid up at Northampton for at least 18 months a couple of years ago and it lost windscreens, pantograph etc. As long as they don't get too heavily stripped and can be put back together when required then it doesn't seem an issue. If they are wrecked and never run again so soon after a repaint andd mods etc then yes it is a waste but if be surprised if that happened

I cannot understand the economics of spending millions buying a train then using it as a source of spares rather than earning money carrying passengers.
I belive 333009 has been laid up most of this year and has lots of parts missing do won't be returning soon..
Surely a failing of spare parts procurement.
K

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I cannot understand the economics of spending millions buying a train then using it as a source of spares rather than earning money carrying passengers.
I belive 333009 has been laid up most of this year and has lots of parts missing do won't be returning soon..
Surely a failing of spare parts procurement.
K

First off, Northern didn't buy anything, they lease trains for a set amount, same as every other passenger TOC.

As for spares procurement, I don't know how Northern arrange it, but taking one unit apart to make sure three or four others are in service is better than having three or four out of service waiting parts. It could be that the supply of parts from the manufacturer is not up to standard or perhaps failures have become more frequent. It's certainly not a unique situation, even BR did it.

 

[superkev]

First off, Northern didn't buy anything, they lease trains for a set amount, same as every other passenger TOC.

As for spares procurement, I don't know how Northern arrange it, but taking one unit apart to make sure three or four others are in service is better than having three or four out of service waiting parts. It could be that the supply of parts from the manufacturer is not up to standard or perhaps failures have become more frequent. It's certainly not a unique situation, even BR did it.

Class 333's are maintained by Siemens
K

 

[northwichcat]

I cannot understand the economics of spending millions buying a train then using it as a source of spares rather than earning money carrying passengers.
I belive 333009 has been laid up most of this year and has lots of parts missing do won't be returning soon..
Surely a failing of spare parts procurement.
K

The millions spent on the ex-BR trains were paid for a long time ago, the only investment the ROSCOs have to recover now is the recent modifications, to the trains which have had them done.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Class 333's are maintained by Siemens
K

Well in that case I presume Siemens had a contract to make sure a certain number are in service each day.

 

[Geeves]

Are you sure?

Sorry you are right its still there. My bad!

150275

At Barclays Kilmrnk Status X / MTCE/REPAIR Arr 0925 on 09/04

 

[Brian Aylott]

What is the cheapest alternative for Porterbrook?
Fit 319's with the guard's mod's with TSI PRM mod's or fit 319's with TSI PRM mod's with the guard's mod's?

Yes - a factor that will mean that some of the 8 units just transferred to Northern will have to be in traffic soon, is that all the original 20 units are planned to go to Wolverton prior to the end of 2017 for their C6s and PRM mods (most of the 'new ones' have already had theirs)
This will mean that throughout 2017 Northern will be short of about 2 extra units at a time - and so will need to use some of the additional units (if not all)
Brian

 

[507021]

I thought I'd do a list of units similar to that in the GWR thread to keep track of what's been refurbished. I won't include the units that are leaving the franchise.

Units in red are in the Northern Rail livery or their former operator's livery.
Units in purple are currently being refurbished.
Units in blue are in the Northern livery and have received PRM modifications.

Class 150s:
150103, 150110, 150111, 150112, 150113, 150114, 150115, 150116, 150117, 150118, 150119, 150132, 150133, 150134, 150135, 150136, 150137, 150138, 150139, 150140, 150141, 150142, 150143, 150144, 150145, 150146, 150147, 150148, 150149, 150150.

150201, 150203, 150204, 150205, 150206, 150207, 150210, 150211, 150214, 150215, 150218, 150220*, 150222, 150223, 150224, 150225, 150226, 150228, 150268, 150269, 150270, 150271, 150272, 150273, 150274, 150275, 150276, 150277.

Note: Units with a star have received PRM modifications.

Class 155s:
155341, 155342, 155343, 155344, 155345, 155346, 155347.

Class 156s:
156420, 156421, 156423, 156424, 156425, 156426, 156427, 156428, 156429, 156438, 156440, 156441, 156443*, 156444*, 156448*, 156451*, 156452, 156454*, 156455, 156459, 156460, 156461, 156463*, 156464, 156466, 156468, 156469, 156471*, 156472*, 156475, 156479, 156480*, 156481, 156482*, 156483, 156484, 156486, 156487, 156488, 156489, 156490, 156491.

Note: Units with a star have received PRM modifications, credit to relevant thread.

Class 158s:
158752, 158753, 158754, 158755, 158756, 158757, 158758, 158759, 158784, 158787, 158790, 158791, 158792, 158793, 158794, 158795, 158796, 158797, 158815, 158816, 158817, 158842, 158843, 158844, 158845, 158848, 158849, 158850, 158851, 158853, 158855, 158859, 158860, 158861, 158872.

158901, 158902, 158903, 158904, 158905, 158906, 158907, 158908, 158909, 158910.

Note: 158906 is fitted with WiFi, charging points and a PIS.

Class 319s:
319004. (319005 also to come.)

319218, 319219. (in storage at Allerton TMD.)

319361, 319362, 319363, 319364, 319365, 319366, 319367, 319368, 319369, 319371, 319374, 319375, 319376, 319377, 319378, 319379, 319380, 319382, 319383, 319386.

319442, 319448. (319424, 319431, 319434, 319450, 319456, 319458 also to come.)

Class 333s:
333001, 333002, 333003, 333004, 333005, 333006, 333007, 333008, 333009, 333010, 333011, 333012, 333013, 333014, 333015, 333016.

Note: 333009 is presently stored out of service.

If anybody notices any mistakes, please let me know.