It's a loyalty card, essentially. I suppose if it were a smart card, it could give more reduction, the more one travelled, especially off-peak.
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Yes, you could do but I'm a great believer in simplicity. "A third off" is a very compelling, easy to comprehend offer. I would expect there to be some sort of peak time restriction.
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I like the simplicity of the third off, however you could discount the actual railcards themselves (by selling them at the current price).
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I say to folk buying national railcards do you think you'll be spending £100 a year on rail fares? Then you'll save.
You wouldn't be able to use it on season fares but it might be a way around the part time commuter problem. You wouldn't give a 33% discount maybe 20% or 25% so 5 day commuters wouldn't use in lieu of season ticket. I'd ere on saying £60 quid for 20% off. £300 a year plus to start saving? part time commuters and business travellers would be the big winners but it would encourage regular discretionary use as well.
Settle on 25%, then we can say a quarter off ?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Easy - have a fire sale of the railway property portfolio. Oh, hang on..................
WatcherZero
Established Member
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And not follow through with the suggestion of the head of Aslef this weekend that all child, disabled and elderly travel completely free on all public transport.
He seemed to think if transport was publically owned it didnt cost anything to provide.
He seemed to think if transport was publically owned it didnt cost anything to provide.
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That sounds like something Corbyn supporters would go for. And the idea that the 1% could pay for it perhaps?
The most important thing to cut costs and increase revenue is to fill emptier off peak trains, but not increase usage on already busy services that could lead to the need for longer trains and infrastructure upgrades.
It's the heavy usage that costs the railway so much, but with longer platforms and new rolling stock, it's the off peak travel that surely ATOC can figure out a way of improving?
As mentioned above, why no way to upgrade to first class off peak on some services (bought in advance of travel for DOO services), or many off peak first class tickets in the first place? Easy money right there.
And a national railcard for everyone is ridiculously overdue. By all means have different levels, like other countries, with varying discounts and/or restrictions. Money up front and not that hard to do if we ever get the new ticket design sorted so restrictions could be printed on the tickets.
Merlin manages different types of annual passes, and it's all very easy.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Extra revenue requires either more passengers or higher fares. I assume higher fares are not wanted, except perhaps at the margins where cheap tickets are leading to overcrowding on certain services. More passengers is a better option as it also contributes to national policy of encouraging more connectivity by more sustainable modes.
Rail has three major passenger markets: intercity travel, London commuting and regional services (everything else).
London commuting is essentially saturated. It depends on London employment and housing issues, and since most commuters who can use rail already do so there isn't much opportunity for the railway to influence growth.
Intercity rail actually has quite a high market share on those markets where it is competitive - particularly city centre to city centre with a rail journey time of up to three hours. Beyond 3hr air dominates the time-sensitive market and shorter journey times would be needed for rail to be competitive - however most major city pairs in England are already within 3hr and HS2 won't bring many others within it, so there isn't much gain to be had from time-sensitive travellers. HS2 should however provide some benefit where passenger numbers are currently limited by available capacity.
For intercity journeys in the 1-3hr range the car becomes more and more attractive depending how inconvenient the train is for the two ends of the journey. The railway will probably gain here as car travel is affected by congestion, fuel prices and "green" attitudes. But I believe to make a big change here we would need a revolution in local public transport to provide fast convenient access to our major rail stations. Unfortunately I don't see this happening in the UK although it can be seen in some other countries.
The final "market", regional travel, covers a wide range of different services. However I think this is the main opportunity for growth. This applies in particular to commuting into cities that still have suburban rail, and to travel in and between more densely populated areas. Some rural routes have had big percentage increases in usage but this is from a very low base so won't make a big contribution to total numbers. However road travel in the major cities outside London gets more and more difficult and while providing a rail alternative isn't straightforward it is mainly a case of lengthening trains and platforms rather than the huge schemes needed in the south-east. There is also a large swathe of southern and eastern England where driving in any direction is difficult but rail is only really an option for the routes radiating from London. East West Rail is the obvious example, but also the only example, of a major infrastructure investment to capture this "orbital" market.
Rail has three major passenger markets: intercity travel, London commuting and regional services (everything else).
London commuting is essentially saturated. It depends on London employment and housing issues, and since most commuters who can use rail already do so there isn't much opportunity for the railway to influence growth.
Intercity rail actually has quite a high market share on those markets where it is competitive - particularly city centre to city centre with a rail journey time of up to three hours. Beyond 3hr air dominates the time-sensitive market and shorter journey times would be needed for rail to be competitive - however most major city pairs in England are already within 3hr and HS2 won't bring many others within it, so there isn't much gain to be had from time-sensitive travellers. HS2 should however provide some benefit where passenger numbers are currently limited by available capacity.
For intercity journeys in the 1-3hr range the car becomes more and more attractive depending how inconvenient the train is for the two ends of the journey. The railway will probably gain here as car travel is affected by congestion, fuel prices and "green" attitudes. But I believe to make a big change here we would need a revolution in local public transport to provide fast convenient access to our major rail stations. Unfortunately I don't see this happening in the UK although it can be seen in some other countries.
The final "market", regional travel, covers a wide range of different services. However I think this is the main opportunity for growth. This applies in particular to commuting into cities that still have suburban rail, and to travel in and between more densely populated areas. Some rural routes have had big percentage increases in usage but this is from a very low base so won't make a big contribution to total numbers. However road travel in the major cities outside London gets more and more difficult and while providing a rail alternative isn't straightforward it is mainly a case of lengthening trains and platforms rather than the huge schemes needed in the south-east. There is also a large swathe of southern and eastern England where driving in any direction is difficult but rail is only really an option for the routes radiating from London. East West Rail is the obvious example, but also the only example, of a major infrastructure investment to capture this "orbital" market.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
Ive just had a quick check and it wouldn't undercut season ticket prices from my station for 5 day a week travelers - so workable and 25% off is a better offer than 20%.
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Long distance travel prices are heavily skewed toward rewarding travel to London- typically elsewhere AP quotas are less numerous and higher priced and fares can be 50% higher per mile for off peak returns. As you say whats needed most outside of the London market is couple of extra carriages and a more sensible fare regime and you've a lot of scope for growth. Crossrail 2,3 and 4 will cost the earth to implement in comparison.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
Yes that would work with the services which get around 80 adult passengers and 150 school kids going to/from school. Children paying nothing would obviously cover the cost of paying for strengthening the service from 2 cars to 3 or 4. :roll:
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Out of interest, would undercutting season ticket prices be an issue if there were a morning peak time restriction on using the card ?
Out of interest, would undercutting season ticket prices be an issue if there were a morning peak time restriction on using the card ?
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Would severely limit its usefulness much like the Two Together Railcard. The angle I'm coming from is a reward for regular travelers the part time workers, regular business travelers who get nothing at the moment.
We have a local railcard on the Cambrian lines and it certainly has encouraged usage. It gives a third off so nearly all the regular commuters (apart from those on educational season) buy daily instead of seasons however a lot of them only get singles to Welshpool as the train times home are not great and come back by lift/bus many also don't do full weeks.
That's interesting. I was perhaps looking at a greater discount more heavily skewed towards off-peak, discretionary travel, however another model might be more effective at raising revenue.
I do think that a minimum fare before 10am (such as found on the 16-25 Railcard) is a much more logical restriction than a blanket ban as found on the Two Together. You could even jack it up a bit and it would still keep the railcard useful (perhaps £20 rather than the current £12) for leisure/regular travellers whilst helping to avoid problems with it undercutting 5-day commuters on shorter flows.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Would kill it for part time workers in provinces though. Charging £60 to purchase would be better mechanism as only dedicated regular travelers would go for it.
Hmm yes didn't think that through.
I suppose it would depend whether targeting existing regular travellers would prove more lucrative. I suspect that targeting those who aren't currently dedicated travellers might be more worthwhile (even if us regular travellers gain something from it).
A £20 minimum fare outside of the peak would certainly be too much though.
A £20 minimum fare outside of the peak would certainly be too much though.
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If we ever get a national smartcard system, I would hope you could finally have a discount/loyalty scheme built in that rewards customers with discounts over time (off peak/weekends, not peak where you'd have a season ticket as normal - possibly with capping for part time workers) and might even make railcards redundant.
Your card would be unique to you (I'd suggest the owner has a photo printed on the card itself) and you'd be encouraged to travel more, as well as being incentivised with offers (perhaps discounts unique to you from 'your' TOC or others wanting to invite you to use their trains).
You could manage first class upgrades, lounge access, perhaps even receive vouchers to spend at the cafe bar on a train. All encouraging new ways to generate revenue.
Your card would be unique to you (I'd suggest the owner has a photo printed on the card itself) and you'd be encouraged to travel more, as well as being incentivised with offers (perhaps discounts unique to you from 'your' TOC or others wanting to invite you to use their trains).
You could manage first class upgrades, lounge access, perhaps even receive vouchers to spend at the cafe bar on a train. All encouraging new ways to generate revenue.
TheKnightWho
Established Member
I expect we will likely see a contactless system instead, with season tickets being attached to your bank card. Much simpler than setting up some bespoke system. Given you'd almost certainly want them attached to the card you paid with anyway, it shouldn't be that much trouble, and if not it would be trivial to enter another card's details (if you're buying for someone else, say).
I don't really like this idea of offers "unique to people". I'm sure it will just lead to preferred target audiences getting all the best deals and boring, single, middle aged men (like muggins 'ere) getting the dregs.
A straight forward percentage off which everyone can access would be my preference.
A straight forward percentage off which everyone can access would be my preference.
Effectively reward those that use the train the most. In doing so it would mean that people could be inclined to use the train for a few more journeys if it means that they can get the next discount.
It would also enable TOCs to understand more accurately when people were using their services and so be able to better target offers (i.e. 10% off Friday morning tickets when the numbers using those services are a little lower).
WatcherZero
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Already feel that way, seems to be a railcard for everything today except being a single person between 25 and 60.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The McNulty report (2011) would have found its way into the CP5 HLOS settlement with Network Rail, and into DfT budgets for the franchises.
Nothing changes because of new faces at the top, especially with Philip Hammond at the Treasury.
He will know quite well what is expected of the DfT in this parliament, since he was Secretary of State when the initial report came in (it was commissioned by Andrew Adonis).
Apart from the operational cost savings, the ripest fruit is in the bureaucracy at the top of DfT, NR and ORR, especially as they are now managing the same pot of public money.
We will soon see how the future looks when NR publishes its Initial Industry Plan for CP6 (part of the iteration to get to a budget).
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How about stop paying consultants ...and do everything in house. Increase 1st class comfort and service but at the same time increase the cost. Some people WILL pay it... (think of the margin that airlines charge).
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In theory it's ageist!
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In theory it's ageist!
An insightful analysis, and I agree that it is in the latter where there is most scope for growth.
On this front for travel to grow, rail needs to become more competitively priced for journeys to be increased. At the moment, my experience is that rail is not well priced for regional rail travel outside of PTE areas, particularly when you more than one person.
Case study: I live in Durham and want a day out in York with my wife. Presuming for a moment that I'm not a train enthusiast and that I'm not interested in green issues, at the moment I don't see how rail is competitive. The cheapest flexible fare is £47.50; the cheapest Advances can make the return £18, but this involves booking 3 months ahead and travelling at anti-social hours, and all of this with a Railcard discount included.
By contrast, our fuel for the day would cost us around £20-£23 depending on fuel price. Even if we factor in running costs of the car (which we'd be incurring anyway if it were sat on the drive) and parking (though frankly I'm sure we'd find somewhere free and walk), only the cheapest Advances, with their associated loss of flexibility and the danger that we'll change our plans, are even slightly competitive.
Train fares are competitive for longer distances where journeys are more likely to be planned in advance and travelling times are much better and for travel within urban areas. Possible growth, I think, is in that intercity market of journeys of 30-120 minutes.
You'd still need an account unique to you though, even if you can indeed just use a CPC. Shouldn't be any harder than having PayPal storing multiple cards that are all linked to you.
I say this because cards expire, people change banks and - I guess - not everyone has a bank account and may still prefer to use cash (I'd expect you could still use cash to put money on your account to buy tickets).
I think you'd find that regular users would get offers to try and extract MORE money, so deals would be for things the passenger doesn't already do. Supermarkets do this.
Only if you stop travelling for a while (or stop shopping) might you get deals to encourage you back. Say the system thinks you might have decided to drive to work (when you may have changed job, retired etc).
People who don't travel a lot may well get MORE deals. I know I get a lot more voucher codes and promotions from restaurant chains I haven't been to in a while. Those I visit a lot feel no real rush to offer me money off!
I think the Nectar card system is very badly managed compared to the slick way Tesco manages its Clubcard scheme. I'd hope ATOC could develop something like Tesco, but expect it would manage something WORSE than Nectar!
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
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I so wish that they know when to keep their trap shut.
This kind of unrealistic talk (in this country at least) is exactly the kind of thing that loses them all credibility. :roll:
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The last thing we need is more complication. It you are going to offer it as another Railcard, keep it as 34% in line with all Railcards, perhaps with bonus offers like a similar discount for child fares (81%) on F&F.
It shouldn't be priced too low to start with as the occasional travellers were never going to be the intended market, so maybe pricing it at £150-£200 to start with, walk-on fares only and Standard only, and then adjust them accordingly depending on market reception. There is still a hefty market of people spending over £600 a year on leisure travel alone.
There can also be a version with discounts on First Class travel priced higher, perhaps £250-£300.
Peak travel should obviously be excluded, but only morning peaks.
bavvo
Member
I'd say group travel is probably the softest target to reach. Anyone who has felt like travelling with a bunch of friends for a day out will probably have come across this. Petrol and parking costs for four people in a car can be shared four ways, rail is simply not competitive in that market, but it should be. Even with groupsave discounts it will still cost far more to go by train, even when the train is almost empty. With much bigger groupsave discounts for off peak trains you could probably encourage far more leisure travel income that would currently never use the train whilst costing the rail operators very little extra.
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