Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[ComUtoR]

Since it is the take-home pay that enables current bills to be paid, children to be clothed and food put on the family table, very much the short-term.

When your fighting for a job that may not be there in the long term, does the short term view matter ? We have to remember that this strike is partly about what happens beyond the franchise and the security of jobs. The long term view is very very important.

Long-term aspirations do nothing whatsoever to help to pay the bills due at the current point of time (...)

Probably not for some people but long terms is important and cannot be discounted out of hand to suit your stance about money. Many will have savings, a partner with an income, friends, credit cards, single, living at home etc. etc. There is also an opportunity to work a rest day. Wages lost due to striking can be made back. Unless the previous condition about anyone striking will lose a set amount (which was mentioned in the thread already) then there is also a likelihood that your not booked to work on the strike day.

It isn't going to be a blanket loss or a calculable figure because each person who strikes has their own motivation, outlook and financial situation.

I think its quite clear that the company will not be able to simply bleed people dry and into submission through financial detriment.

 

[AlterEgo]

They already have declared they're going to put the conductors on notice of redundancy, they're way ahead of them!

A cynic may suggest, totally impartially (a change for me), that given the supposedly impartial safety regulator's now mysteriously vanished from the internet document, a case study on how to go DOO for commercial reasons, stated that operators should prepare for 10 days industrial action (an impartial safety regulator giving advice on dealing with industrial action for commercial reasons, you couldn't make it up) that perhaps the RMT are pushing it many times beyond that to make others think twice.

I'm not actually convinced the RMT are that clever but you never know.

I think I'm going to make a freedom of information request for that case study though - it stinks to high heaven that it's the only one of several case studies linked to in a document that has been deleted.

The ORR aren't just a safety regulator. They also have an expanding consumer brief and one would expect them to comment on the impact on TOCs and customers of industrial action. It's kind of their job(!).

 

[LowLevel]

The ORR aren't just a safety regulator. They also have an expanding consumer brief and one would expect them to comment on the impact on TOCs and customers of industrial action. It's kind of their job(!).

The RSSB, which is the specific office that made that case study/brief, should be an impartial safety regulator. Publishing a case study on how much industrial action to expect for making a decision for commercial reasons doesn't give me much confidence in them, as a railway employee.

 

[AlterEgo]

The RSSB, which is the specific office that made that case study/brief, should be an impartial safety regulator. Publishing a case study on how much industrial action to expect for making a decision for commercial reasons doesn't give me much confidence in them, as a railway employee.

The RSSB is not a regulator, nor is its remit confined just to safety.

The report you refer to was picked up by the RMT some time ago, and was the subject of an inaccurate and hysterical press release.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/toc-funded-report-exposes-doo-dangers/

The key is in risk analysis.

One could argue that having two guards would be safer on every train, because if the driver died, and the train was fouling two (or more) running lines, then you'd have two staff to walk both lines to put detonators down. Clearly that would definitely bring the risk of the loss of life down, but would come at a massive cost premium.

Cost:risk.

 

[highdyke]

RSSBs remit includes innovation and changes to working practices - as they are the ones that write the rule book everyone works to. They are not a safety regulator as such, rather set standards and look at emerging trends and changes: For example technology, climate change, energy saving, and so on.

The ORR is the safety regulator, who as also ruled DOO is no less safe based on evidence.

The hysterical RMT press release is fairly typical and the £350 million saving is not profits, rather money the industry has to play with.

My guess is, in view of general departmental budget cuts, failure to enact DOO working will just mean projects being canceled in the long term or fares rising further.

Rising HS2 costs, GWR electrification costs and the failure to deliver DOO, really sends a signal that the railway cannot deliver or manage budgets. They are incapable of change in a fast changing world.

But 'profits' sounds much better.

 

[Bellbell]

For those that have made up their mind I am the most hated person on this thread and therefore anything I say should be shot down I would like to say.

i agree with guards staying on the train.

But..... The guard should be a, concientious, customer service focussed proactive individual. I know you cannot accept this but there are many guards on southern that really do not give two hoots about passengers.

I don't hate you, that would be crazy. I don't know you.

I don't disagree with you about what you think the guard should be (although customer service can come in many guises and should come second to safety) but I don't really understand the relevance here. I think you're conflating two different issues - the fact that there are poor guards within the grade is indisputable but is not an argument to get rid of the grade. It suggests, and I'd agree, that performance management is sometimes poor on the railway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When your fighting for a job that may not be there in the long term, does the short term view matter ? We have to remember that this strike is partly about what happens beyond the franchise and the security of jobs. The long term view is very very important.

I think its quite clear that the company will not be able to simply bleed people dry and into submission through financial detriment.

If you have been careful to have built up financial security that will ensure you have funds to tide you over during the days when you will be on strike, then you have your priorities in the right order.

I have emboldened part of your posting that makes reference to what happens past the end of the current franchise period and would ask you to read what jcollins said in his posting # 5755 on that very matter that concerns the time period after the end of the current franchise.

 

[ComUtoR]

I have emboldened part of your posting that makes reference to what happens past the end of the current franchise period and would ask you to read what jcollins said in his posting # 5755 on that very matter that concerns the time period after the end of the current franchise.

I'm aware of that. I watched the parliamentary willy waving committee. (feel free to read back the thread to where I was specifically discussing it)

Makes you wonder why the staff are fighting so hard to keep their current roles, rather than agree to one that has such a limited lifespan. They are thinking long term.

If you have been careful to have built up financial security that will ensure you have funds to tide you over during the days when you will be on strike, then you have your priorities in the right order.

I'm sure you are well aware that it is NOT just about savings. Its about lifestyle just as much. I live within my means but my savings are almost non existent but I'm relatively debt free. I do have a good support system if I needed it. Not every Guard is married with kids, car, house, credit cards etc.

As Sarah stated, some have already left. Some are still fighting.

 

[HLE]

In my opinion this new round of strikes are a case of too little too late. I remember posting a few months ago that one day strikes here and there won't have the same impact as a few consecutive days would. The very valid threat of losing money for the day being hard enough let alone a few days, was put across as an argument - to which my reply was that long term they may well lose a lot more than 1 days pay.

Only now as Southern are beginning to roll out the OBS service role, are longer strikes being announced. This should have been done months ago.

Compared to the Scotrail approach, the guards/RMT approach for Southern has seemed quite weak in comparison.

 

[Dave1987]

Even after this dispute is over the legacy of what has happened will roll on. It will take a very long time before the goodwill most TOC's benefit from is built up again. Whatever the eventual outcome I don't believe anyone can believe this can be seen as a success. Too many bridges have been burnt. I suppose it's a question as to whether the eventual outcome is worth what it has cost.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Even after this dispute is over the legacy of what has happened will roll on. It will take a very long time before the goodwill most TOC's benefit from is built up again. Whatever the eventual outcome I don't believe anyone can believe this can be seen as a success. Too many bridges have been burnt. I suppose it's a question as to whether the eventual outcome is worth what it has cost.

It certainly will be interesting to see which TOC will be awarded the follow-up franchise to this current one.

 

[HowardGWR]

Even after this dispute is over the legacy of what has happened will roll on. It will take a very long time before the goodwill most TOC's benefit from is built up again. Whatever the eventual outcome I don't believe anyone can believe this can be seen as a success. Too many bridges have been burnt. I suppose it's a question as to whether the eventual outcome is worth what it has cost.

No. it will be forgotten within two minutes. We are talking South East Region here. Life is very short there.

 

[Robertj21a]

It certainly will be interesting to see which TOC will be awarded the follow-up franchise to this current one.

Probably the same one again, as a reward for doing the job as they were told.

 

[JamesTT]

Please... Please stop. Where I am you stay to your hours unless the Train Crew Supervisor tells you you can go. Within your hours they can use you as they wish to work what they/control like, bearing in mind PNBs and Hidden. Arrangements vary by TOC and Depot depending on local agreements, but you're only going to embarrass yourself spouting your skewed, uninformed view of how train crew work.

I have seen first hand a guard call up their manager after a fatality and say, their diagram was to work one train an hour plus then work the same train back an hour plus then pass home, during major disruption. They did not offer to stay on but took the opportunity to go home early. That person had over 2 hours of work left. They didn't offer to work that time to help out, but chose to use the incident as an opportunity to go home early

The guard in question was nowhere near the incident
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely in the majority of workplaces your always going to get a broad cross section of staff ranging from the.extremley dedicated to some that only do the bare minimum, I'm not aware even on the railway it's ever been the unions job to try and change that, it'll be primarily down to management, who'll either work with the union or the individual workers directly

Would it not be a sensible approach of unions to encourage their members to work hard and prove their worth. So if the company their members' work for are considering getting rid of them, they can say this is what they add to the business?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't hate you, that would be crazy. I don't know you.

I don't disagree with you about what you think the guard should be (although customer service can come in many guises and should come second to safety) but I don't really understand the relevance here. I think you're conflating two different issues - the fact that there are poor guards within the grade is indisputable but is not an argument to get rid of the grade. It suggests, and I'd agree, that performance management is sometimes poor on the railway.

Sorry about the hate quote. I don't think the guard grade should go. I agree that management should be more robust. But how is that achieved without the cries of 'my manager is bullying me?'

 

[ComUtoR]

They did not offer to stay on but took the opportunity to go home early. That person had over 2 hours of work left. They didn't offer to work that time to help out, but chose to use the incident as an opportunity to go home early

Lets say that was you.

The scenario is that :

• You are booked to work the next day 12hrs 10minutes after you book off. You booked on that day at 0350.
• You know that you will not be able to make your book off time.
• You have personal commitments.

Pop quiz hotshot. What would you do and why ?

Would it not be a sensible approach of unions to encourage their members to work hard and prove their worth. So if the company their members' work for are considering getting rid of them, they can say this is what they add to the business?

For how much remuneration ? Or should they give their personal time for free ?

I often advocate that an employee should prove their worth but at what price ? How much should the employee give and at what point is it the employers responsibility to ensure that the workplace follows its own rules and policies and acts in the interest of its employees ?

Pop quiz hotshot...

Your control and call the Guard.

• You know they will run late.
• The overtime budget is stretched.
• Additional workings means their next duty may be cancelled.
• You sent the cover person home early.
• It is your responsibility to ensure staff book off on time.
• Your aware they have 2hrs left on their diagram.
• Due to an incident the service is indeterminately delayed.

What do you do ?

 

[JamesTT]

Lets say that was you.

The scenario is that :

• You are booked to work the next day 12hrs 10minutes after you book off. You booked on that day at 0350.
• You know that you will not be able to make your book off time.
• You have personal commitments.

Pop quiz hotshot. What would you do and why ?



For how much remuneration ? Or should they give their personal time for free ?

I often advocate that an employee should prove their worth but at what price ? How much should the employee give and at what point is it the employers responsibility to ensure that the workplace follows its own rules and policies and acts in the interest of its employees ?

Pop quiz hotshot...

Your control and call the Guard.

• You know they will run late.
• The overtime budget is stretched.
• Additional workings means their next duty may be cancelled.
• You sent the cover person home early.
• It is your responsibility to ensure staff book off on time.
• Your aware they have 2hrs left on their diagram.
• Due to an incident the service is indeterminately delayed.

What do you do ?

I am their manager, if possible I would ask them to work shuttle services/do customer service at the station they are at. Of course I would not expect them to work over their hours/break hidden etc

 

[ComUtoR]

I am their manager, if possible I would ask them to work shuttle services/do customer service at the station they are at. Of course I would not expect them to work over their hours/break hidden etc

That's the big thing though isn't it. There are so many variables. If the Guard cannot make their book off time then they go home. Whatever happens you need to get that member of staff home on time. So as a Manager you do what you can to keep them on time but what happens if you can't ? Well, you send them home.

What about scenario (a) where your the staff member ?

When control phone me up and send me home early. I'm out the door before the phone hangs up. Not forgetting that I am also caught up in the disruption.

What you are seeing is one side of the conversation. As a member of staff is is not my choice to go home early or late. I am at the whim of control; who have the bigger picture. That may mean I'm working late or I'm out the door.

Sadly; I have given up on making suggestions to control or trying to get my units back on time.

 

[spangles]

Breaking news: Dyan Crowther to leave GTR and become CEO at HS1.

I wonder how it will impact current situation.
http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/hs1_...hit_southern_to_run_high_speed_link_1_4711439

 

[sarahj]

deleted

 

[infobleep]

Any lawyers on here like to give their opinion on the below? Does commercial confidentiality mean the DfT could never ever give out the details they are seeking?

Anyone contributed to their fund or going on the protest? I haven't myself but part of me feels I should contribute a small amount towards it.

I wonder how they have managed to raise £18,000 if many of the commuters are not on the side of the guards as I believe some have claimed. Or are the commuters simply not on this die of the guards or GTR . As in they hate all of them.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...owther?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

More than 900 Southern users affected by the ongoing dispute have clubbed together to raise the cash to fund a judicial review of the award of the franchise to GTR. The Association of British Commuters said it has now raised £18,000 of the £25,000 it needs to move ahead with the courtroom challenge.

The group’s lawyers have written to the Department for Transport asking to see documents related to the franchise award but say their requests have not been granted.

Southern rail boss waives bonus and pay rise as profits rise 27%
“We have been delighted with the public response to our campaign,” the group said in a statement. “What has been extremely disappointing, however, is the Department for Transport’s failure to engage with us.

“We have asked the most straightforward of questions and have been met firstly with two weeks of silence, and now with a further delay whilst they consider whether to lift the lid on the franchise. This conduct just underlines the fact that judicial review is the only option available to us.”

Emily Yates, campaign co-ordinator for the group, said: “It is hard to understand why they cannot be transparent about their dealings with a private company that is failing on such an unprecedented scale.”

The group is planning to stage a protest at Victoria station in London on Thursday.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[hwl]

Any lawyers on here like to give their opinion on the below? Does commercial confidentiality mean the DfT could never ever give out the details they are seeking?

Anyone contributed to their fund or going on the protest? I haven't myself but part of me feels I should contribute a small amount towards it.

It is commercially sensitive so forget it.
As DfT made so many mistakes pre tender (think bigger than West Coast...) which GTR have proof of and will be using as get out jail free cards you can be doubly sure they will make sure nothing will come out!

 

[AlterEgo]

Any lawyers on here like to give their opinion on the below? Does commercial confidentiality mean the DfT could never ever give out the details they are seeking?

Anyone contributed to their fund or going on the protest? I haven't myself but part of me feels I should contribute a small amount towards it.

I wonder how they have managed to raise £18,000 if many of the commuters are not on the side of the guards as I believe some have claimed. Or are the commuters simply not on this die of the guards or GTR . As in they hate all of them.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...owther?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard


Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

955 commuters out of several hundred thousand is a very tiny percentage. In any case, they're not "supporting the guards", they're hacked off at the DfT and just peed off in general at being late all the time. There is a big difference.

Unfortunately this looks like a waste of £25,000 which a solicitor is going to have a few good nights out on.

 

[Bellbell]

I have seen first hand a guard call up their manager after a fatality and say, their diagram was to work one train an hour plus then work the same train back an hour plus then pass home, during major disruption. They did not offer to stay on but took the opportunity to go home early. That person had over 2 hours of work left. They didn't offer to work that time to help out, but chose to use the incident as an opportunity to go home early

The guard in question was nowhere near the incident

I wouldn't be speaking to my manager during disruption - I'd be speaking to the resource manager. Or possibly the control manager. They're all different people. As has been explained though, there are more factors at work than just whether the guard wants to go home. They can't take themselves off the job. They can refuse to do something that would take them over their day length, and it's perfectly possible that some just don't want to. But others will have caring commitments, appointments, transport difficulties that mean they can't stay on. I've had to be point out before that doing something that control want me to do will mean I can't book on right time the next day; that conversation could easily sound like me trying to get out of work.

Running shuttles is not as simple as just a quick chat with the driver and off we go. Control and the signallers need to be on board, you might need bidirectional lines/platforms and/or permissive platforms at some locations. You might need the driver to know a shunt move in order to set up a shuttle service. Control needs to know that normal service won't resume while you're in the wrong place, with a unit and driver that are now needed back where you were previously.

I sympathise with passengers in general when nothing seems to be happening during times of disruption but control have a mammoth job to do and it's not possible for them to consider all possible permutations at any one time. They're trying to minimise the chaos, not create more of it, and unfortunately that does sometimes mean that people sit, for 4 hours, only a few miles from their destination.

 

[Robertj21a]

955 commuters out of several hundred thousand is a very tiny percentage. In any case, they're not "supporting the guards", they're hacked off at the DfT and just peed off in general at being late all the time. There is a big difference.

Unfortunately this looks like a waste of £25,000 which a solicitor is going to have a few good nights out on.

Agreed. This looks like a quick and easy way to squander £25k by not giving it enough thought.

 

[Dave1987]

James you are showing incredible naivety. When there is mass disruption drivers and guards will usually go and sit in the mess room with their mobile switched on and wait for the call from the DTM. There is no point in ringing control because you simply will not get through. If control ring you and say we want you to run shuttles between X & Y at Z times, then if that's within your time then that's what you do. You make it sound like during major disruption there is always a train available and the infrastructure allows for shuttles to be operate and it's just the drivers and guards refusing to do them. You are clearly very naive as to what actually happens in the real world.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

James you are showing incredible naivety. When there is mass disruption drivers and guards will usually go and sit in the mess room with their mobile switched on and wait for the call from the DTM. There is no point in ringing control because you simply will not get through. If control ring you and say we want you to run shuttles between X & Y at Z times, then if that's within your time then that's what you do. You make it sound like during major disruption there is always a train available and the infrastructure allows for shuttles to be operate and it's just the drivers and guards refusing to do them. You are clearly very naive as to what actually happens in the real world.

+1 This!!!

 

[JamesTT]

James you are showing incredible naivety. When there is mass disruption drivers and guards will usually go and sit in the mess room with their mobile switched on and wait for the call from the DTM. There is no point in ringing control because you simply will not get through. If control ring you and say we want you to run shuttles between X & Y at Z times, then if that's within your time then that's what you do. You make it sound like during major disruption there is always a train available and the infrastructure allows for shuttles to be operate and it's just the drivers and guards refusing to do them. You are clearly very naive as to what actually happens in the real world.

Why is it naive to expect someone who has 3 hours of work left to not disappear, when the bleep hits the fan. For manager's to have the cohones to say, you have 3 hours left could you do xy or z to assist. You love using the word naive when referring to me. I can assure you I know a lot more than you think I do

 

[Chrisgr31]

The guard should be a, concientious, customer service focussed proactive individual. I know you cannot accept this but there are many guards on southern that really do not give two hoots about passengers.

Certainly agree with the first part, not sure about the last part or rather the word many. Depends on definition of many. Personally i'd go for some.

 

[LowLevel]

Why is it naive to expect someone who has 3 hours of work left to not disappear, when the bleep hits the fan. For manager's to have the cohones to say, you have 3 hours left could you do xy or z to assist. You love using the word naive when referring to me. I can assure you I know a lot more than you think I do

I don't get what you're on about chap is the problem. It's nothing to do with the manager being Billy Big Balls. It's their job to utilise their traincrew resources as required during disruption and that includes making phone calls and giving directions. The traincrew don't have the overall picture and work as directed. You don't need hundreds of guards and drivers trying to ring one or two people with single phone lines to say 'would you like'. I've done it occasionally when I think they've overlooked something and they've been grateful but I don't interrupt them lightly. In fact control actually send out messages saying 'don't ring us unless it's an emergency as we're busy'.

Our lot certainly are not shy about letting traincrew know what is expected of them. We expect it from them as it's their job. I'd hate to work at GTR where it's evidently gone so wrong.

 

[infobleep]

I'm on a Gatwick Express service South of Gatwick and it's telling me the WiFi SSL certificate isn't from a trusted authority.

The irony.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk