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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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the sniper

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I had one of the new "on-board supervisors" on 377 708 on a fast London Victoria -Caterham/Tattenham Corner service this evening (well the woman said she was an onboard supervisor rather than a guard) and I proved that the RMT's argument about "safety being compromised if trains operated by DOO" is complete and utter bull****! The train ran with no issues whatsoever.

I'm just glad you survived the experience to bring us this valuable evidence...

Sorry but I have witnessed conductors expressing what could be described as happiness during disruption if it leads to their train being cancelled. This was the case before the proposed introduction of DOO extension and OBS

Err, is that a surprise? Did I deny that happens?

What happened to your "even more so the more people it inconveniences" claim?
 
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JamesTT

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I had one of the new "on-board supervisors" on 377 708 on a fast London Victoria -Caterham/Tattenham Corner service this evening (well the woman said she was an onboard supervisor rather than a guard) and I proved that the RMT's argument about "safety being compromised if trains operated by DOO" is complete and utter bull****! The train ran with no issues whatsoever.
Also, I don't see why the RMT keep on going on about this, when most of Southern's trains, and most services worked by 455's (except those going to Horsham, which have a guard) run DOO anyway. No jobs are being lost anyway! The only issue i see about this is with 12 car services, but surely the CCTV cameras on the side of the 377 and the dispatcher can help see if any passengers are boarding. This is how the RMT's argument falls apart. My view on the issue is that they need to stop causing unnecessary disruption over such a little issue (who opens and closing doors)
I also saw a "SAY NO TO DOO" sticker on the drivers door in 377 708.

Oooo how dare you take up a contrary position. The RMT knew about Mcnulty about 5 years ago. But instead of encouraging the guards show their worth. They encouraged the attitude of belligerence and if they try to change the guards job, the guards will stick it to the 'Man' and the passengers. So instead of the TOCs being able to say ok Mrs/Mr DFT you don't like conductors but we can show that they benefit us in the following ways. They didn't encourage guards to do their job to the best of their ability to prove the benefit of having a guard
 

JamesTT

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I frequently express happiness if part of my job is cancelled. It's no different to any other human being managing to avoid doing something. It doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for those affected by it. It's equally not my fault and if it means I get away a bit early or whatever then I'm not going to lie and say 'oh the pain of it all'.

I'll still help sort the passengers out first. In fact last time this happened to me because my unit and driver were the wrong side of a standard Joint line signalling infrastructure failure, I prevented the cancellation of a different train on a route I only sign as a diversion/occasionally Sunday by ringing up and offering to work a train due to be cancelled because it's guard was stuck with my unit and driver, then pick up the rest of my job afterward.

It all goes around in circles and to say 'they should never be happy about it' just sounds a little thick.

Example for you. fatality at a station south/north of the station you are at. Your diagram is to work a train north/south work a train back then pass back to depot = 3 hours work. Do you go yippee im going home, or do you say I have 3 hours left on my shift I will work shuttles to get passengers moving?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Go to bed James, you're drunk.

(I hope)

How dare I criticise the knights of the railway basically?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
before the abuse starts again.
I think extension of DOO is a bad idea
 

the sniper

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Example for you. fatality at a station south/north of the station you are at. Your diagram is to work a train north/south work a train back then pass back to depot = 3 hours work. Do you go yippee im going home, or do you say I have 3 hours left on my shift I will work shuttles to get passengers moving?

Please... Please stop. Where I am you stay to your hours unless the Train Crew Supervisor tells you you can go. Within your hours they can use you as they wish to work what they/control like, bearing in mind PNBs and Hidden. Arrangements vary by TOC and Depot depending on local agreements, but you're only going to embarrass yourself spouting your skewed, uninformed view of how train crew work.
 

JamesTT

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Please... Please stop. Where I am you stay to your hours unless the Train Crew Supervisor tells you you can go. Within your hours they can use you as they wish to work what they/control like, bearing in mind PNBs and Hidden. Arrangements vary by TOC and Depot depending on local agreements, but you're only going to embarrass yourself spouting your skewed, uninformed view of how train crew work.

So doing a few shuttles of 15-20 minutes each way would not be allowed to assist keeping passengers moving is not allowed?

Sorry but experience (INCLUDING BEFORE THE DISPUTE) has shown a disregard and contempt for passengers.
 

the sniper

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So doing a few shuttles of 15-20 minutes each way would not be allowed to assist keeping passengers moving is not allowed?

Sorry but experience (INCLUDING BEFORE THE DISPUTE) has shown a disregard and contempt for passengers.

I said it wasn't allowed where? I appreciate that you consider Guards to be the 'Knights of the Railway', presumably with great power, but 'doing a few shuttles' isn't something you just do because you feel like it. Control would decide whether they wanted to run shuttles. They'd have to sort out headcodes and timings for such a thing, if it fitted the bigger picture. The Signaller would also have to be involved. You'd also need a Driver... Why you think the Guard at the bottom of the food chain is the one who should be calling the shots, but isn't because they're lazy/hate passengers, I don't know... Those nasty Guards, hey. :roll:
 

NSEFAN

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JamesTT said:
So doing a few shuttles of 15-20 minutes each way would not be allowed to assist keeping passengers moving is not allowed?
Drivers and guards can't just take their train where they want, provided they don't run out of minutes. It's up to control to decide what provisions are made during disruption.

JamesTT said:
Sorry but experience (INCLUDING BEFORE THE DISPUTE) has shown a disregard and contempt for passengers.
Southern is a commuter franchise which is run with bare minimum resources, making it prone to service disruption, with front-line staff getting it in the neck from passengers day after day (esp. from people who think that it's the front-line staffs' fault for not solving the problem at hand :roll:). I can see why staff morale would be bad, working in that kind of environment.
 

pompeyfan

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I had one of the new "on-board supervisors" on 377 708 on a fast London Victoria -Caterham/Tattenham Corner service this evening (well the woman said she was an onboard supervisor rather than a guard) and I proved that the RMT's argument about "safety being compromised if trains operated by DOO" is complete and utter bull****! The train ran with no issues whatsoever.
Also, I don't see why the RMT keep on going on about this, when most of Southern's trains, and most services worked by 455's (except those going to Horsham, which have a guard) run DOO anyway. No jobs are being lost anyway! The only issue i see about this is with 12 car services, but surely the CCTV cameras on the side of the 377 and the dispatcher can help see if any passengers are boarding. This is how the RMT's argument falls apart. My view on the issue is that they need to stop causing unnecessary disruption over such a little issue (who opens and closing doors)
I also saw a "SAY NO TO DOO" sticker on the drivers door in 377 708.

Out of interest, would you mind saying roughly how old you are and what type of job you do for what kind of firm (if you even have a job)?

The reason I ask is you seem to completely have missed the points of the arguments against DOO. Surely you can't actually believe that the OBS job is secure on a full SN guards wage?
 

BestWestern

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Well at least someone has been swallowing GTR's press releases, be awful to think they'd gone to all that effort for nothing! :D
 

northwichcat

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Go to bed James, you're drunk.

(I hope)

Careful with comments like that. I got given a forum infraction for provocation when I asked if someone who was rambling on not making any sense had been drinking.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's not just about dispatch.

I agree with that point. However, how it affects passenger safety depends on what the alternative arrangements are. If the original plan was to keep the existing guards on board until the end of the franchise but to take the door control duties off them then it is only about dispatch at the moment. If the plan is to have just one member of franchise staff on board then it's about a lot more than dispatch. Given Southern already have DOO routes the RMT needs to come up with an argument of why Govia's DOO proposals would make the new DOO routes less safe than the existing DOO routes.

Note that the TOC can't make a guarantee beyond the end of the franchise and the union can't call for industrial action over what a future TOC may or may not do. I think in the circumstances what both parties should agree to is existing guards can retain their jobs on the same hours, without any pay cuts, until the end of the franchise but they need to accept the driver may be asked to undertake door duties.
 

Chrisgr31

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I said it wasn't allowed where? I appreciate that you consider Guards to be the 'Knights of the Railway', presumably with great power, but 'doing a few shuttles' isn't something you just do because you feel like it. Control would decide whether they wanted to run shuttles. They'd have to sort out headcodes and timings for such a thing, if it fitted the bigger picture. The Signaller would also have to be involved. You'd also need a Driver... Why you think the Guard at the bottom of the food chain is the one who should be calling the shots, but isn't because they're lazy/hate passengers, I don't know... Those nasty Guards, hey. :roll:

In my experience guards and drivers are invariably willing to go above and beyond when trains are disrupted, whether they can or whether their control has other ideas is a different matter.

But certainly my experience has been that if trains get terminated on route, break down or whatever the onboard staff usually do all they can to get passengers on their way, and will suggest to signallers/control etc practical solutions to the problem that has arisen. In theory Control has a view of the bigger picture and therefore may make them do something else.

The onboard and dispatch staff are the customer facing staff and are therefore most likely to come in to contact with irate passengers, its no surprise some may be reluctant to help following abuse they have received before. Its also no surprise that they are currently prepared to work less overtime, and (maybe who knows what the true facts are) less prepared to work when feeling under the weather and calling in sick is an option. The circumstances may of course be resulting in stress related illnesses among staff to.

Personally I am disappointed that guards haven't done more ticket checking over the last few years, and particularly now (although I understand its difficult heard a report yesterday of not showing their ticket as it was on strike), but that doesnt mean I think they should go.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think in the circumstances what both parties should agree to is existing guards can retain their jobs on the same hours, without any pay cuts, until the end of the franchise but they need to accept the driver may be asked to undertake door duties.

However thats what Southern are saying, Guards can do a similar role (OBS) which doesnt involve dispatch or doors but do same hours with no pay cuts.

The question though must be why are Southern going through all this pain, and cost, to end up with the same number of staff at the same cost? There is plainly a cost saving reason hidden somewhere as otherwise they wouldnt be doing it.

As regards is DOO safer or not, statistics are very difficult to find. If of course you are the person trapped and dragged by a DOO train then you are not going to be in favour of it. My personal view is that a guard is likely to be more able to see a trapped person because they have to get on the platform, that a gives them more of a view but b also makes the roll of checking less automatic and habit. Incidents of trap and drag with a DOO train generally seem to say the trapped person was visible to the driver but not seen.

Then of course there is the argument that its not just dispatch........
 

LowLevel

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Example for you. fatality at a station south/north of the station you are at. Your diagram is to work a train north/south work a train back then pass back to depot = 3 hours work. Do you go yippee im going home, or do you say I have 3 hours left on my shift I will work shuttles to get passengers moving?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


How dare I criticise the knights of the railway basically?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
before the abuse starts again.
I think extension of DOO is a bad idea

Having spent several hours in a remote unmanned station car park in Lincolnshire looking after my passengers following a fatality finishing over 2 hours late on a 9 hours 40 minutes shift when I could have demanded a taxi or disappeared on an ECS with the driver not that long ago, what do you think?

Sure, I've had control cancel my train due to a lack of units and I was allowed to go because there was nowt to do. This didn't make me sad. The reason I was allowed to go is that I do help when I humanly can do so.

I've also got a short job of 6 hours off spare and been phoned as I was getting in my car on a Sunday night to ask me to take the last train to Mansfield as the guard had been assaulted and it was already 40 minutes late and full coming. I took the train.

Have I made my point or do I need to sound like a broken record? Every day of the week we have people bending their rights and conditions to help. It's because despite a few moans we have generally good relations with our management and feel reasonably valued.

GTR have made their staff hate their guts. The result is obvious.
 
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Don King

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To be fair, there have been numerous cases of rail staff with no personal experience of being in a managerial role in running a TOC who are quite happy to make some rather trite comments on those positions.

Two sides to every coin.

It is the rail staff who have to carry out / deal with the ideas and implementations coming from the management, so I'd say they'd have fairly good grounds to complain about it, particularly when someone with no railway experience walks in and instead of being willing to learn the ropes, starts throwing their weight around and dictating unworkable practices.

Managers are mixed bag anyway. I have worked with some great managers, regional managers and been impressed with some of the moves some directors have suggested - just as much as there are terrible / incompetent and criminal ones. Certainly I think my direct boss has far more in common with the front line staff, than with the DFT agenda, so I don't consider him an "enemy" in the slightest - in fact he is a great bloke who knows how to manage and is willing to argue the staffs' case to his superiors, where he thinks it is valid, whilst dealing appropriately with those who do not perhaps give the job the focus they should.

On the topic of DOO, our managers where I work do not want it, for the same reasons the staff do not. Those pushing the DOO agenda are either ignorant of the risks (having never done the job), hate staff and unions and want to smash them for their own perverse pleasure or political ideology, are scared of the DFT and worried about budget cuts and losing their own jobs if franchises aren't renewed because DOO has failed to be implemented, or fear for their own jobs and think the only way to get ahead is to be brutal.

In 2003 there were ballots for nationwide guards strikes over changes to the rule book which made the driver responsible for the safety of the train instead of the guard. The guards at the First Group companies, GNER and Chiltern from what I recall did not strike, as the directors at these companies at the time agreed with the unions over this change - so even at director level there has always been opposition to DOO and downgrading the guard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having spent several hours in a remote unmanned station car park in Lincolnshire looking after my passengers following a fatality finishing over 2 hours late on a 9 hours 40 minutes shift when I could have demanded a taxi or disappeared on an ECS with the driver not that long ago, what do you think?

Sure, I've had control cancel my train due to a lack of units and I was allowed to go because there was nowt to do. This didn't make me sad. The reason I was allowed to go is that I do help when I humanly can do so.

I've also got a short job of 6 hours off spare and been phoned as I was getting in my car on a Sunday night to ask me to take the last train to Mansfield as the guard had been assaulted and it was already 40 minutes late and full coming. I took the train.

Have I made my point or do I need to sound like a broken record? Every day of the week we have people bending their rights and conditions to help. It's because despite a few moans we have generally good relations with our management and feel reasonably valued.

GTR have made their staff hate their guts. The result is obvious.

Spot on.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/busines...e-warns-former-southern-rail-worker-1-7465773 - an interesting comment from a former Southern manager.
 
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northwichcat

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However thats what Southern are saying, Guards can do a similar role (OBS) which doesnt involve dispatch or doors but do same hours with no pay cuts.

If the RMT can get that in writing alongside a guarantee from Southern that guards won't be made redundant during the current franchise, it would mean the guards would have an excellent deal. Most people would bite off their employer's hand if they were offered a 5 year deal without risk of redundancy, pay cuts or short time working.

The question though must be why are Southern going through all this pain, and cost, to end up with the same number of staff at the same cost? There is plainly a cost saving reason hidden somewhere as otherwise they wouldnt be doing it.

If it's the same as with what DfT want Northern to do it's primarily so the guards can be more focused on revenue duties, or in other words there's more staff time being spent on revenue duties without staffing costs increasing.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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No idea why the recent agreement at Scotrail can't be implemented nationwide and save all this agro:|

Just imagine if an agreement in another TOC franchise to your area was reached that was NOT to your personal liking.

Would you still be making such a statement?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the RMT can get that in writing alongside a guarantee from Southern that guards won't be made redundant during the current franchise, it would mean the guards would have an excellent deal. Most people would bite off their employer's hand if they were offered a 5 year deal without risk of redundancy, pay cuts or short time working.

Was it not the case that the unions were seeking an agreement that would extend past the current franchise period?
 

Bellbell

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I had one of the new "on-board supervisors" on 377 708 on a fast London Victoria -Caterham/Tattenham Corner service this evening (well the woman said she was an onboard supervisor rather than a guard) and I proved that the RMT's argument about "safety being compromised if trains operated by DOO" is complete and utter bull****! The train ran with no issues whatsoever.

I don't think even the most ardent anti-doo among us would suggest that every single time a train moves DOO it's going to go wrong so I'm not entirely sure what your n=1 anecdote is supposed to prove. If you were playing Russian roulette and survived the first go would that lead you to assume any claims that it was dangerous were bull****?


Sorry but I have witnessed conductors expressing what could be described as happiness during disruption if it leads to their train being cancelled. This was the case before the proposed introduction of DOO extension and OBS

I'm another one who is undeniably happy if I get to go home early. If I'm at my home depot and the wires go down and the last bit of my job gets cancelled then yes, I consider that I've benefited by being allowed to go home early. I wouldn't, and couldn't, just take myself off the job in disruption and send myself home though! It only happens if there's nothing we can do, as has been explained to you by someone else. Plus, you might find it's part of that British attitude of making the best of a bad situation. The last time I encountered severe disruption you would have heard me saying to a passenger 'ah well, at least I won't have to go to X'. This was part way through a conversation in which they had said that at least they wouldn't have to have dinner with a hated in-law and I'd been asked whether I'd been late home, to which the answer was yes. Even without going to X I was 90 minutes late home.

I'll let you in on a little secret about managing people - if there is absolutely nothing that someone can do to help the situation on one occasion, letting them go home early earns you some goodwill you can use on another occasion something goes wrong and that same person can do something to help the situation, by going over their hours. Swings and roundabouts.

Also, I'm very fond of the vast majority of drivers I know and consider some of them very good friends of mine but if you think they're sat there, head in hands, bemoaning the fact that their job has been cancelled and they'll have to go home early...
 
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northwichcat

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Was it not the case that the unions were seeking an agreement that would extend past the current franchise period?

If that's what they want they need the franchisor (DfT) to agree to it not the franchisee (Southern.) Also as the RMT discovered before industrial action which isn't being taken against the current employer is illegal.
 

Sprinter153

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An update to the GWR situation:
GWR Brief said:
- GWR does not propose to introduce DCO (Driver Control Operated) or DOO (Driver Only Operation) on any additional lines of route.
- DOO currently applies on most Thames Valley services and will continue to do so.
- Guards currently control train doors on High Speed and West services and will continue to do so.
- We propose that drivers would release doors on new IEP/AT300 trains and Class 16x units cascaded to the West, subject to local discussions with On Train and Drivers' Divisional Council.
- We are proposing that GWR and the RMT (along with ASLEF) participate in a joint review of
dispatch arrangements for IEP/AT300s.

Drivers opening Turbo doors in the West is a logical progression as this is the current procedure on Guard operated Turbos in the LTV area. The only complication is that there is no SDO or local door control which would be an issue at short platforms (such as Avoncliff or Dilton Marsh) so that particular scenario will need to be addressed.

No idea whether the current Class 180 station arrival method where the driver asks the TM's permission to open the doors (buzzer code 3-2) would be continued with IEP but it seems unlikely.
 

BestWestern

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An update to the GWR situation:


Drivers opening Turbo doors in the West is a logical progression as this is the current procedure on Guard operated Turbos in the LTV area. The only complication is that there is no SDO or local door control which would be an issue at short platforms (such as Avoncliff or Dilton Marsh) so that particular scenario will need to be addressed.

No idea whether the current Class 180 station arrival method where the driver asks the TM's permission to open the doors (buzzer code 3-2) would be continued with IEP but it seems unlikely.

The issue with Turbos will be the substantial risk of door release incidents. Drivers new to the procedure, train formations which will vary significantly being anything from two to six car or more, and lines like the Severn Beach with platforms alternating side to side and stations only moments apart. A very real increase in risk from a Driver's perspective.

I can't imagine the pre-opening buzzer codes being used on IEP. Driver release is perfectly safe provided technology is used to remove the risk of stop short and wrong side releases, which one hopes it will be here. Indeed, it is likely to be part of whatever system is used for Selective Door Opening, assuming that's still part of the plan.
 
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Carlisle

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An update to the GWR situation:


Drivers opening Turbo doors in the West is a logical progression as this is the current procedure on Guard operated Turbos in the LTV area. The only complication is that there is no SDO or local door control which would be an issue at short platforms (such as Avoncliff or Dilton Marsh) so that particular scenario will need to be addressed.

No idea whether the current Class 180 station arrival method where the driver asks the TM's permission to open the doors (buzzer code 3-2) would be continued with IEP but it seems unlikely.
So they want an identical working agreement to the Scotrail deal with perhaps some alterations to the IEP/AT300 dispatch procedure possibly to be negotiated at some future date ?
 
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maniacmartin

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I had one of the new "on-board supervisors" on 377 708 on a fast London Victoria -Caterham/Tattenham Corner service this evening (well the woman said she was an onboard supervisor rather than a guard) and I proved that the RMT's argument about "safety being compromised if trains operated by DOO" is complete and utter bull****! The train ran with no issues whatsoever.

I was on a fast 377 Caterham/Tattenham train with an OBS too (perhaps the very same service) and the whole situation seemed ridiculous to me. The OBS stood next to the guards' panel for the whole of my journey doing pretty much nothing and didn't step out onto the platform, or even look out of the doors. Meanwhile the driver had to dispatch using the tiny screens alone. It doesn't make sense to me.

Another journey: Last night I was on a guarded Horsham train which had a disruptive passenger and the guard liased with platform staff and BTP, made informative announcements and had a good rapport with passengers. As such we knew the reason for the delay and the train was soon on its way. I suspect things wouldn't have happened as smoothly with an OBS.
 

JamesTT

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For those that have made up their mind I am the most hated person on this thread and therefore anything I say should be shot down I would like to say.

i agree with guards staying on the train.

But..... The guard should be a, concientious, customer service focussed proactive individual. I know you cannot accept this but there are many guards on southern that really do not give two hoots about passengers.
 

the sniper

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For those that have made up their mind I am the most hated person on this thread and therefore anything I say should be shot down I would like to say.

Nobody hates you... I just don't agree with some of your opinions, particularly the very broad sweeping nature of the accusations you make, which are quite unreasonable.
 

Carlisle

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Oooo how dare you take up a contrary position. The RMT knew about Mcnulty about 5 years ago. But instead of encouraging the guards show their worth. They encouraged the attitude of belligerence and if they try to change the guards job, the guards will stick it to the 'Man' and the passengers. So instead of the TOCs being able to say ok Mrs/Mr DFT you don't like conductors but we can show that they benefit us in the following ways. They didn't encourage guards to do their job to the best of their ability to prove the benefit of having a guard
Surely in the majority of workplaces your always going to get a broad cross section of staff ranging from the.extremley dedicated to some that only do the bare minimum, I'm not aware even on the railway it's ever been the unions job to try and change that, it'll be primarily down to management, who'll either work with the union or the individual workers directly
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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In the short term or the long term ?

Since it is the take-home pay that enables current bills to be paid, children to be clothed and food put on the family table, very much the short-term.

Long-term aspirations do nothing whatsoever to help to pay the bills due at the current point of time and let us be blunt, how many besides Jeremy Corbyn and "the Momentum Gang" think more of the long term when there are short-term family responsibilities to be addressed.
 
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