Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[gavin]

Breaking: Southern Railway workers to take 14 days of strike action in five blocks from next month, RMT union says

 

[Deepgreen]

Breaking: Southern Railway workers to take 14 days of strike action in five blocks from next month, RMT union says

And, for once, no use of the term "basket case" in the press release!

 

[Carlisle]

Breaking: Southern Railway workers to take 14 days of strike action in five blocks from next month, RMT union says

About as predictable as the arrival of cold weather this winter

 

[Deepgreen]

About as predictable as the arrival of cold weather this winter

So, if last winter is anything to go by, not at all predictable!

 

[HowardGWR]

Angie Doll, GTR’s passenger services director, accused the RMT of a shameful desire to “heap yet further travel misery on the public”.

She said: “A comprehensive and fair offer has been on the table for weeks and the union leadership’s claims about jobs, pay, safety are trumped-up make believe. This scaremongering by the RMT union is a contrived attempt to gain public support when it knows its spurious arguments about jobs, pay, accessibility and safety have been demolished by independent experts and analysis and are falling on deaf ears.”

She added: “Everyone is sick and tired of the union’s posturing and it has to stop, and stop now. It’s what the public want.”

It doesn't seem to me that there is a lot of room, if any, for any further offers from GTR.

 

[JonathanH]

I still don't think we have the full picture on what Southern can do to just impose DOO by the end of the year. What agreements do they need from:
a) drivers to agree to an extension of DOO
b) clearance for routes
c) guards to become OBS

Why didn't Southern just start this by saying that East / West Coastway London services should run DOO inside Haywards Heath, Arun Valley trains inside Three Bridges, East Grinstead services inside East Croydon then work on further extensions a bit at a time?

 

[Robertj21a]

I still don't think we have the full picture on what Southern can do to just impose DOO by the end of the year. What agreements do they need from:
a) drivers to agree to an extension of DOO
b) clearance for routes
c) guards to become OBS

Why didn't Southern just start this by saying that East / West Coastway London services should run DOO inside Haywards Heath, Arun Valley trains inside Three Bridges, East Grinstead services inside East Croydon then work on further extensions a bit at a time?

What, in the hope that RMT didn't notice ? - surely it needed some specific 'confrontation' if the issue was/is to ever be resolved ?

 

[physics34]

I still don't think we have the full picture on what Southern can do to just impose DOO by the end of the year. What agreements do they need from:
a) drivers to agree to an extension of DOO
b) clearance for routes
c) guards to become OBS

Why didn't Southern just start this by saying that East / West Coastway London services should run DOO inside Haywards Heath, Arun Valley trains inside Three Bridges, East Grinstead services inside East Croydon then work on further extensions a bit at a time?

Word is that drivers are gonna get quite a pay rise to tempt them to agreeing it.....plus, as has been proven by the recent court issues, its pretty much pointless for the drivers side to oppose DOO now.......

Im not sure NR has the budget to improve the lighting efficently at all coastway stations to make it suitable for DOO working.... this is being argued at the moment.

 

[Robertj21a]

Word is that drivers are gonna get quite a pay rise to tempt them to agreeing it.....plus, as has been proven by the recent court issues, its pretty much pointless for the drivers side to oppose DOO now.......

.

I thought this whole dispute was supposed to be about safety, safety and nothing but safety - but now it may not really be so important after all (if the money is right) - have I understood that correctly ?

 

[hwl]

Im not sure NR has the budget to improve the lighting efficently at all coastway stations to make it suitable for DOO working.... this is being argued at the moment.

NR "got" £20m to sort "Southern" issues with most of it seemingly unallocated...

 

[BestWestern]

I thought this whole dispute was supposed to be about safety, safety and nothing but safety - but now it may not really be so important after all (if the money is right) - have I understood that correctly ?

Neither Aslef nor it's members have said they intend to accept any such offer, have they?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

NR "got" £20m to sort "Southern" issues with most of it seemingly unallocated...

I am sure that efficient lighting on all the Coastway railway stations are one such issue that any "unallocated" funds could be given to.

 

[the sniper]

I thought this whole dispute was supposed to be about safety, safety and nothing but safety - but now it may not really be so important after all (if the money is right) - have I understood that correctly ?

ASLEF or RMT asked for the money? When TOCs end up stuck in a corner they normally resort to throwing around money to try and get out of it, whether it achieves the desired result or not...

If DCO is as inevitable as Southern believe, they must know they're inevitably going to have to pay the drivers more for personally taking on the additional risks and responsibilities associated with extended DOO working.

One could also argue that for Southern and the DfT, DCO has always been about money, money and nothing but money, so them talking about what money they're going to give the Drivers if they get DCO is just business as usual.

 

[Robertj21a]

ASLEF or RMT asked for the money? When TOCs end up stuck in a corner they normally resort to throwing around money to try and get out of it, whether it achieves the desired result or not...

If DCO is as inevitable as Southern believe, they must know they're inevitably going to have to pay the drivers more for personally taking on the additional risks and responsibilities associated with extended DOO working.

One could also argue that for Southern and the DfT, DCO has always been about money, money and nothing but money, so them talking about what money they're going to give the Drivers if they get DCO is just business as usual.

Yes, quite understood, but given that all the arguments have been over safety, I have to assume that drivers, on principle, won't be 'bought out' by just being given some extra money.

 

[Carlisle]

Why didn't Southern just start this by saying that East / West Coastway London services should run DOO inside Haywards Heath, Arun Valley trains inside Three Bridges, East Grinstead services inside East Croydon then work on further extensions a bit at a time?

That was always the way BR would have traditionally introduced and gradually expanded DOO schemes in its day however they had the luxury of mostly being able to obtain union agreements far more easily then due mainly to longstanding fears of a declining network and the chance to enhance what were much lower wages as has been pointed out by other posters

 

[swt_passenger]

I am sure that efficient lighting on all the Coastway railway stations are one such issue that any "unallocated" funds could be given to.

They started replacing the lighting heads with LED versions on the SWT part of the West Coastway a few months ago, (basically on the Netley line). When I quizzed an electrician about this, as it was only a very few years since the last full replacement, he said they were changing the heads to give better illumination for Southern's changing requirements, and it was not being paid for by Wessex route.

 

[RichardN]

ASLEF or RMT asked for the money? When TOCs end up stuck in a corner they normally resort to throwing around money to try and get out of it, whether it achieves the desired result or not...

If DCO is as inevitable as Southern believe, they must know they're inevitably going to have to pay the drivers more for personally taking on the additional risks and responsibilities associated with extended DOO working.

One could also argue that for Southern and the DfT, DCO has always been about money, money and nothing but money, so them talking about what money they're going to give the Drivers if they get DCO is just business as usual.

What percentage of Southern station calls are already DOO dispatch?

 

[northwichcat]

It was reported on the local news in the North West this week that Greater Manchester fire service have found a way of legally sacking firefighters who don't agree to a new contract after failing to come to any agreement with the union over proposed changes. I can see Govia looking at the same option now - while it's costly to sack staff, frequent strike action is more costly and the replacement RPIs will probably be paid less than guards.

 

[LowLevel]

They already have declared they're going to put the conductors on notice of redundancy, they're way ahead of them!

A cynic may suggest, totally impartially (a change for me), that given the supposedly impartial safety regulator's now mysteriously vanished from the internet document, a case study on how to go DOO for commercial reasons, stated that operators should prepare for 10 days industrial action (an impartial safety regulator giving advice on dealing with industrial action for commercial reasons, you couldn't make it up) that perhaps the RMT are pushing it many times beyond that to make others think twice.

I'm not actually convinced the RMT are that clever but you never know.

I think I'm going to make a freedom of information request for that case study though - it stinks to high heaven that it's the only one of several case studies linked to in a document that has been deleted.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes, quite understood, but given that all the arguments have been over safety, I have to assume that drivers, on principle, won't be 'bought out' by just being given some extra money.

Possibly, but, unless I have missed something major, the drivers have not been prominent in this particular dispute, whereas the guards have. BTW, I am not implying that the drivers would be bought out, I just don't think they have been as demonstrative on the issue (the 12 car GatEx issue was separate).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think I'm going to make a freedom of information request for that case study though - it stinks to high heaven that it's the only one of several case studies linked to in a document that has been deleted.

If, as you say, there is linkage to a document that has now been deleted, what do you hope to gain by this?

 

[LowLevel]

If, as you say, there is linkage to a document that has now been deleted, what do you hope to gain by this?

To get the document back off them from the internal archive (I've worked for the Government, it will still exist somewhere, it's just not online anymore) because I believe the sentiments and positions it expresses are of some public interest.

 

[Class455]

I had one of the new "on-board supervisors" on 377 708 on a fast London Victoria -Caterham/Tattenham Corner service this evening (well the woman said she was an onboard supervisor rather than a guard) and I proved that the RMT's argument about "safety being compromised if trains operated by DOO" is complete and utter bull****! The train ran with no issues whatsoever.
Also, I don't see why the RMT keep on going on about this, when most of Southern's trains, and most services worked by 455's (except those going to Horsham, which have a guard) run DOO anyway. No jobs are being lost anyway! The only issue i see about this is with 12 car services, but surely the CCTV cameras on the side of the 377 and the dispatcher can help see if any passengers are boarding. This is how the RMT's argument falls apart. My view on the issue is that they need to stop causing unnecessary disruption over such a little issue (who opens and closing doors)
I also saw a "SAY NO TO DOO" sticker on the drivers door in 377 708.

 

[Dave1987]

I had one of the new "on-board supervisors" on 377 708 on a fast London Victoria -Caterham/Tattenham Corner service this evening (well the woman said she was an onboard supervisor rather than a guard) and I proved that the RMT's argument about "safety being compromised if trains operated by DOO" is complete and utter bull****! The train ran with no issues whatsoever.
Also, I don't see why the RMT keep on going on about this, when most of Southern's trains, and most services worked by 455's (except those going to Horsham, which have a guard) run DOO anyway. No jobs are being lost anyway! The only issue i see about this is with 12 car services, but surely the CCTV cameras on the side of the 377 and the dispatcher can help see if any passengers are boarding. This is how the RMT's argument falls apart. My view on the issue is that they need to stop causing unnecessary disruption over such a little issue (who opens and closing doors)
I also saw a "SAY NO TO DOO" sticker on the drivers door in 377 708.

There is no point in arguing with you because you clearly do not understand the issues involved. Suggest you might want to read the last umpteen thousand posts! It's not just about dispatch.

 

[theironroad]

there is no point in arguing with you because you clearly do not understand the issues involved. Suggest you might want to read the last umpteen thousand posts! It's not just about dispatch.

+1
...

 

[BestWestern]

Ooh have they sent another manager to infiltrate us again....?

They do realise this isn't the Metro and people don't come here to be brainwashed?

 

[Don King]

I had one of the new "on-board supervisors" on 377 708 on a fast London Victoria -Caterham/Tattenham Corner service this evening (well the woman said she was an onboard supervisor rather than a guard) and I proved that the RMT's argument about "safety being compromised if trains operated by DOO" is complete and utter bull****! The train ran with no issues whatsoever.
Also, I don't see why the RMT keep on going on about this, when most of Southern's trains, and most services worked by 455's (except those going to Horsham, which have a guard) run DOO anyway. No jobs are being lost anyway! The only issue i see about this is with 12 car services, but surely the CCTV cameras on the side of the 377 and the dispatcher can help see if any passengers are boarding. This is how the RMT's argument falls apart. My view on the issue is that they need to stop causing unnecessary disruption over such a little issue (who opens and closing doors)
I also saw a "SAY NO TO DOO" sticker on the drivers door in 377 708.

Do you drive or dispatch trains?

If not then you haven't a clue sunshine.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do you drive or dispatch trains?

If not then you haven't a clue sunshine.

To be fair, there have been numerous cases of rail staff with no personal experience of being in a managerial role in running a TOC who are quite happy to make some rather trite comments on those positions.

Two sides to every coin.

 

[JamesTT]

How and where have you gone about 'noticing' this? To attribute all of this to the majority of Guards is ridiculous.

Regarding the bit I've put in bold, while I don't know anyone who sheds any tears if a trip gets cancelled, as you can't do anything about it and you get to have a longer break (if you're not asked to do something else...), it's pure bull**** to say "even more so the more people it inconveniences"! :roll:

Sorry but I have witnessed conductors expressing what could be described as happiness during disruption if it leads to their train being cancelled. This was the case before the proposed introduction of DOO extension and OBS

 

[LowLevel]

Sorry but I have witnessed conductors expressing what could be described as happiness during disruption if it leads to their train being cancelled. This was the case before the proposed introduction of DOO extension and OBS

I frequently express happiness if part of my job is cancelled. It's no different to any other human being managing to avoid doing something. It doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for those affected by it. It's equally not my fault and if it means I get away a bit early or whatever then I'm not going to lie and say 'oh the pain of it all'.

I'll still help sort the passengers out first. In fact last time this happened to me because my unit and driver were the wrong side of a standard Joint line signalling infrastructure failure, I prevented the cancellation of a different train on a route I only sign as a diversion/occasionally Sunday by ringing up and offering to work a train due to be cancelled because it's guard was stuck with my unit and driver, then pick up the rest of my job afterward.

It all goes around in circles and to say 'they should never be happy about it' just sounds a little thick.