How do they plan to link Derby city centre to HS2?

[deltic]

That depends - is the Toton station in a green belt?
If it is not then you can forget about the centres of Nottingham or Derby - within 20 years Toton will be the economic centre of both.

There is limited space around Toton for much development - it is also in the flood plain. As already posted the presumption is that there will be 4 tph from Nottingham and Derby to Toton

 

[Philip Elliott]

I still don't think anyone has published any details of the massive viaduct to connect the Derby line with the high level line. Without that there won't be an Derby services...

 

[deltic]

I still don't think anyone has published any details of the massive viaduct to connect the Derby line with the high level line. Without that there won't be an Derby services...

Probably missing something blindingly obvious but why do you need a massive viaduct? There are no proposals to connect Derby direct to HS2 but there will be connections at Toton interchange. Trent juncs will need to be sorted out to make it all work and there are proposals for that.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Yes you are...at the moment access to Toton from Derby is from Trent East Jn. through Long Eaton Town. This line will be closed and converted into HS2 hence no access to Toton from Derby. As a result a large viaduct/embankment will need to connect the high level goods lines to Trent West jn.

 

[Haydn1971]

Yes you are...at the moment access to Toton from Derby is from Trent East Jn. through Long Eaton Town. This line will be closed and converted into HS2 hence no access to Toton from Derby. As a result a large viaduct/embankment will need to connect the high level goods lines to Trent West jn.

There's two separate alignments into Toton from the south ? The alignment north could be realigned to suit.

 

[Philip Elliott]

https://binged.it/2curaNz

The high level line needs to get up and over the Nottingham line and then down onto the already very tight (15mph) north curve whilst taking into account it is a flood plain...

 

[edwin_m]

There's two separate alignments into Toton from the south ? The alignment north could be realigned to suit.

HS2 is planned to fly over Trent Junction and take over the horizontal alignment of the low level lines towards Toton. Classic trains to and from Toton will have to take the high level lines, which have a curve towards Nottingham (Attenborough Junction) but no connection towards Derby. I'm sure someone will have looked at this but the HS2 website plans (showing the design as of 2.5 years ago) don't show anything.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...section-hsl09-plan-and-profile-map-3-of-3.pdf

 

[Haydn1971]

It's not really rocket science to fix though it is ?

 

[edwin_m]

It's not really rocket science to fix though it is ?

I'm guessing the connection would be a flyover from the high level lines, passing over the curve to Trent South just south of the main Trent junctions, and merging into the east-west curve somewhere between here and Sheet Stores. Hopefully this would also trigger the long-awaited re-alignment of Sheet Stores for higher speeds. In this area the high level lines are descending towards the level of the other tracks, so the new connection would be higher than any of the existing tracks and the HS2 flyover would need to provide clearance for this.

 

[bangor-toad]

I always thought that they'd look for the cheap option and avoid building too much.

I think the cheapest (easiest?) way is to have a chord leaving the high level lines on the west side which drops down to the current lower tracks. There's a warehouse in the way at the moment but it can be demolished.

This would give a short section of 4 track railway where there the junction would allow south or east travel (towards East Midlands Parkway) and north or west travel (to Toton HS2 or Nottingham). That'd be much the same as it is now.
This would need no extra viaducts but may need the HS2 viaduct to be a little longer to span the additional tracks. Also there needs to be a road put into the industrial estate as HS2 closes a level crossing. This could continue on the original Nottingham - Derby alignment, pass under HS2 and then run alongside the rising chord.

Getting the crayons out it could look like this:

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, that's another possibility. The Derby-Toton (low level) and Loughborough-Nottingham tracks are effectively parallel pairs with linking crossovers, so it might be possible just to slew the stub of the low level tracks round into the new curve. However I think the junction at the Toton end of the curve would have to be further north on the straight, which would probably start affecting houses.

 

[ashworth]

When you really think about it, the route from Derby to London via HS2 is very indirect compared to the MML. I know that because of the higher speeds on HS2 it isn't quite as strange as may first seem, but it isn't going to be much quicker than by the classic route.
First you will be travelling east, then perhaps even a short distance north to reach Toton. Then once on HS2 you will be travelling SW almost to Birmingham before heading SE towards Lodon. I wonder what the total mileage will be in comparison to the MML?

I think the speed and the reliability of the connecting trains from both Derby and Nottingham to/from Toton is going to be crucial for its success regarding passengers travelling who are not driving to Toton. If there isn't major infastructure improvements to avoid trundling at slow speeds through Trent Junction or from Attenborough I can't see the connections being very well used. Also there must be easy access between the 2 trains at Toton without the worry of frequent missed connections or having to run up and down steps and across bridges because of limited connection times. It needs to be reliable, quick, easy and stress free and reasonably priced, otherwise why switch from the classic MML route.

 

[Comstock]

Hi all, thanks for the replies- been on holiday and only just seen them...

That depends - is the Toton station in a green belt?
If it is not then you can forget about the centres of Nottingham or Derby - within 20 years Toton will be the economic centre of both.

I'd actually be in favour of expanding Nottingham and Derby to make a large urban area to rival places like Bristol, Sheffield, Newcastle and other '3rd tier' cities.

That doesn't seem to be normal planning policy, though.

 

[Chris125]

When you really think about it, the route from Derby to London via HS2 is very indirect compared to the MML.

It's not 'as the crow flies' but it doesn't seem that bad, and of course benefits from a top speed 100mph faster than the MML's.

 

[The Ham]

Could it but be that the biggest winners are those that are going to places other than London. In that not only will there be journey time savings, more (once you are at the station) direct services and possibly (as there could be more empty seats from people from London getting off) even some good value tickets.

 

[DPWH]

The East Midlands really doesn't benefit very much from HS2, and the classic routes will be preferable especially when they're electrified. Having been built as various stages, they MML is not particularly direct.

HS2 had to run through so they decided to build a station, but couldn't decide whether to serve Nottingham (the bigger city) or Derby (the better connected city), so chose neither.

The East Midlands does however have relatively poor connectivity with Manchester (changing at Sheffield is a pain), and I wonder about possible East Midlands to Manchester services, though this doesn't seem to be in the present plans.

 

[Haydn1971]

The East Midlands does however have relatively poor connectivity with Manchester (changing at Sheffield is a pain), and I wonder about possible East Midlands to Manchester services, though this doesn't seem to be in the present plans.

That thought hasn't escaped me, almost a "U" shaped service from say, Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds, via Airport, Crewe, Toton, Chesterfield & Sheffield missing out Birmingham completely, end to end pointless, but otherwise completely sensible at the right price.

 

[edwin_m]

That thought hasn't escaped me, almost a "U" shaped service from say, Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds, via Airport, Crewe, Toton, Chesterfield & Sheffield missing out Birmingham completely, end to end pointless, but otherwise completely sensible at the right price.

Possible but unlikely I think. It would need another curve to make a triangle at the junction north of Birmingham. If the Manchester-Sheffield link of HS3 turns out to be something worthwhile then extending its services southwards would be a better bet.

 

[Haydn1971]

Possible but unlikely I think. It would need another curve to make a triangle at the junction north of Birmingham. If the Manchester-Sheffield link of HS3 turns out to be something worthwhile then extending its services southwards would be a better bet.

Ironically, this is how the Glasgow - Edinburgh link started out, just a chord at Carstairs, that has been drawn tighter and tighter by subsequent ministers involved.

 

[Class 170101]

The East Midlands does however have relatively poor connectivity with Manchester (changing at Sheffield is a pain), and I wonder about possible East Midlands to Manchester services, though this doesn't seem to be in the present plans.

Nottingham to Manchester direct? Nottingham isn't in the East Midlands then?

Putting that to one side I would like to a 6th path on the MML, if there is one, run to Manchester Piccadilly from St Pancras. Probably Luton, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sockport and Manchester.

 

[kevjs]

Nottingham to Manchester direct? Nottingham isn't in the East Midlands then?

Putting that to one side I would like to a 6th path on the MML, if there is one, run to Manchester Piccadilly from St Pancras. Probably Luton, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sockport and Manchester.

It might be direct but it's not exactly quick is it?

110 minutes for a journey which (along the M1/M62) is just 70 miles - i.e. around 38mph hour average between the two cities vs the 129 miles to London in 90 minutes (i.e. 86mph)

 

[edwin_m]

The demand for Leicester/Derby to Manchester would only justify a fairly short train so better to start it from Leicester or Derby where there is less capacity constraint than further south.

Restoring an hourly London-Leicester-Nottingham would be a better use for an extra path south of Leicester. After HS2 phase 2 the service would be re-cast with the paths each hour being something like the following:
- London-Leicester-Nottingham
- London-Leicester-Derby
- London-Luton AP-Kettering-Mkt Harborough-Leicester-Loughborough-Long Eaton-Derby-Belper-Chesterfield-Sheffield
- London-Luton AP-Wellingborough-Kettering-Mkt Harborough-Leicester-EM Parkway-Beeston-Nottingham
- London-Luton AP-Wellingborough-Kettering-Mkt Harborough-Leicester-Loughborough-EM Parkway-Toton (possibly continuing north on HS2)

 

[DPWH]

Oh and I have another question. If HS2 takes over ECML services north of Leeds, does that mean that there is spare capacity to serve Nottingham via the ECML? Would that even be quicker?

 

[kevjs]

Oh and I have another question. If HS2 takes over ECML services north of Leeds, does that mean that there is spare capacity to serve Nottingham via the ECML? Would that even be quicker?

IIRC not much quicker, although that proposal was via Newark (is the line to Grantham that bad?)

 

[edwin_m]

London to Nottingham via Grantham could be about as quick as via Leicester. However there will still a need after HS2 to provide fast London-Leicester trains and these might as well continue to Nottingham rather than running a totally new train that doesn't fill a service gap anywhere else. To my mind, as discussed recently on another thread, London-Grantham-Nottingham is a solution in need of a problem.

 

[ashworth]

IIRC not much quicker, although that proposal was via Newark (is the line to Grantham that bad?)

Nottingham to Grantham always does seem a bit slow. Even when travelling on a non stop Liverpool to Norwich service it does often seem quite slow in places. The approach to Nottingham over the Trent at Radcliffe, through Netherfield and along through Sneinton is not very fast. Upgrading the line would probably be very expensive and therefore is unlikely to happen.

I often travel from Nottingham to London via Grantham, especially at weekends because the advance fares are often much cheaper via that route. If you get a good connection at Grantham it can be done in well under 2 hours. If the line from Nottingham to Grantham was electrified and line speeds increased to at least 90mph it could be slightly quicker than via Leicester. However, with the coming of HS2 and the electrification of the MML, it would just be an unnecessary expense that will not happen.

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