One hour bus ticket in London

[Bletchleyite]

I just wish it was the case that Oyster or contactless is cheaper at all times, father than the current situation where there are periods where paper tickets are cheaper. It can be confusing. Perhaps it doesn't really matter as it's all fairly cheap anyway.

I do wonder if at some point the abolition of paper tickets might be considered, with outboundary day and period Travelcards available on some form of smartcard ticketing only. I would imagine TfL could save a fortune if they were able to remove the mechanical magstripe ticket readers from barriers at the vast majority of stations, other than perhaps about 10 key interchanges with the mainline for cross-London ticketing.

 

[Busaholic]

(A) TfL more likely to re-introduce cash fares than they are to force people to touch out on buses
(B) The slowing down of traffic as a result of the cuts in road space, coupled with the increasing population and rise in internet-order delivery vans, will see many longer routes made shorter, especially those serving the Cities of Westminster and London. Examples of this coming up are the 242 and 436, also the probable complete elimination of the 13. If the 25 continues to run between Oxford Circus and Ilford for long after Crossrail opens then I'm a Dutchman. Of course, TfL might split routes into overlapping sections at peak times and make it clear a flat fare only applies to the journey being undertaken by each bus, but that would require political will!

 

[transmanche]

Of course, TfL might split routes into overlapping sections at peak times and make it clear a flat fare only applies to the journey being undertaken by each bus, but that would require political will!

I can't see them (re-)introducing overlapping sections as they have purposefully eliminated them in the past; either by truncating the route (e.g. 29) or by splitting the overlapping sections into separate routes (e.g. 253 & 254).

 

[gray1404]

There has been some comment here about passengers already being charged £1.50 twice in the event of their bus getting terminated early or breaking down. At the same time though there has been mention of transfer tickets so I am a little confused.

Perhaps someone can confirm the correct procedure? If in the event though that a customer has to pay twice I would telephone the TfL Customer Service Line. My experience of them has been excellent (and they have been most professional and polite) and I would imagine (if based on their performance when I have been overcharged for NR/LU journeys) they would refund any additional fares that have been incorrectly paid once they bring up your touch in history.

 

[infobleep]

I can't see them (re-)introducing overlapping sections as they have purposefully eliminated them in the past; either by truncating the route (e.g. 29) or by splitting the overlapping sections into separate routes (e.g. 253 & 254).

Some routes have a lot of buses overlapping for short sections and then go odd in different directions. They may even start from different directions too and only overlap in the middle.

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[hassaanhc]

(A) TfL more likely to re-introduce cash fares than they are to force people to touch out on buses
(B) The slowing down of traffic as a result of the cuts in road space, coupled with the increasing population and rise in internet-order delivery vans, will see many longer routes made shorter, especially those serving the Cities of Westminster and London. Examples of this coming up are the 242 and 436, also the probable complete elimination of the 13. If the 25 continues to run between Oxford Circus and Ilford for long after Crossrail opens then I'm a Dutchman. Of course, TfL might split routes into overlapping sections at peak times and make it clear a flat fare only applies to the journey being undertaken by each bus, but that would require political will!

One very long route was shortened yesterday. The long-standing Route 83 between Golders Green and Ealing Hospital now only runs Golders Green to Alperton Station. The Ealing Hospital to Allison section is now numbered 483, and continues to Harrow via East Lane and Northwick Park Hospital (after duplicating the 83 until Wembley Triangle)

I did the full route of the old 83 on Friday, leaving Ealing Hospital just after 1430. The trip took 111 minutes, which is actually 23 minutes more than booked
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Some routes have a lot of buses overlapping for short sections and then go odd in different directions. They may even start from siddwwwmr directions too and only overlap in the middle.

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E.g. Routes 101 and 474 between Manor Park and Gallions Reach Station. Both routes run every 12 minutes, although they're badly coordinated, so you get both routes a couple of minutes apart then nothing for 10+ minutes

 

[PeterC]

There has been some comment here about passengers already being charged £1.50 twice in the event of their bus getting terminated early or breaking down. At the same time though there has been mention of transfer tickets so I am a little confused.

Perhaps someone can confirm the correct procedure? If in the event though that a customer has to pay twice I would telephone the TfL Customer Service Line.

If you are paying per journey you should be issued a transfer ticket by the driver of the first bus which you show to the driver of the second.

 

[jon0844]

If you are paying per journey you should be issued a transfer ticket by the driver of the first bus which you show to the driver of the second.

I wonder how many people know this. On my first time without a season ticket, I knew to ask and a few others did but the driver never said anything over the PA (drivers rarely do, but I've heard drivers speak over the bus speakers before so assume they all can?).

When the automated system announces a bus will stop short, why doesn't that mention transfer tickets in both text and audio?

 

[hassaanhc]

I wonder how many people know this. On my first time without a season ticket, I knew to ask and a few others did but the driver never said anything over the PA (drivers rarely do, but I've heard drivers speak over the bus speakers before so assume they all can?).

When the automated system announces a bus will stop short, why doesn't that mention transfer tickets in both text and audio?

It has been included in the audio announcement for at least 18 months now.

 

[Deerfold]

It has been included in the audio announcement for at least 18 months now.

Along with the change in practice for each passenger who needs one to be issued with a transfer ticket instead of the previous procedure where 1 passenger received a ticket with summary details of who'd paid

 

[Mojo]

It has been included in the audio announcement for at least 18 months now.

Depends how the driver sets up the curtailment; if they do it properly then it will say that, but I was on a bus that suddenly terminated short for an unknown reason this afternoon, and the driver just manually played the "This bus terminates here" announcement a few times. It was a full and standing Enviro 200 and I was one of only two customers that actually obtained a transfer ticket.

 

[Busaholic]

I can't see them (re-)introducing overlapping sections as they have purposefully eliminated them in the past; either by truncating the route (e.g. 29) or by splitting the overlapping sections into separate routes (e.g. 253 & 254).

TfL have stated they are re-considering the principle that, with very few exceptions, services on day routes are timetabled for end-to-end journeys only. That would bring in the possibility of, to take an example, the 25 having double the service at most times from Ilford to Holborn Circus than over the section from the latter to Oxford Circus or the possibility of, say, two overlapping sections from Oxford Circus to Stratford and Holborn Circus to Ilford. The overlap wouldn't have to apply 24/7 so a through service might operate in evenings and possibly Sundays. More flexibility is required in the bus operation and the flat fare system, admirable though it is, mustn't be allowed to stymie it.
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Depends how the driver sets up the curtailment; if they do it properly then it will say that, but I was on a bus that suddenly terminated short for an unknown reason this afternoon, and the driver just manually played the "This bus terminates here" announcement a few times. It was a full and standing Enviro 200 and I was one of only two customers that actually obtained a transfer ticket.

Anecdotally, this appears to be a growing problem and really needs addressing by TfL.

 

[jon0844]

Good to hear there is an announcement, and for 18 months, but not so good that our bus didn't say it and that it's down to a driver knowing what to do.

 

[berneyarms]

Good to hear there is an announcement, and for 18 months, but not so good that our bus didn't say it and that it's down to a driver knowing what to do.

I'm not sure that the bus can automatically know what to do in that situation. There are still scenarios where human intervention is required.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not sure that the bus can automatically know what to do in that situation. There are still scenarios where human intervention is required.

Ideally, control sends a code to the bus that automatically triggers a message and doesn't require a driver to do anything. Pretty failsafe then.

 

[berneyarms]

Ideally, control sends a code to the bus that automatically triggers a message and doesn't require a driver to do anything. Pretty failsafe then.

That still requires some form of human intervention - the controller has to remove the bus from the control system. That has been known not to happen!

 

[infobleep]

TfL have stated they are re-considering the principle that, with very few exceptions, services on day routes are timetabled for end-to-end journeys only. That would bring in the possibility of, to take an example, the 25 having double the service at most times from Ilford to Holborn Circus than over the section from the latter to Oxford Circus or the possibility of, say, two overlapping sections from Oxford Circus to Stratford and Holborn Circus to Ilford. The overlap wouldn't have to apply 24/7 so a through service might operate in evenings and possibly Sundays. More flexibility is required in the bus operation and the flat fare system, admirable though it is, mustn't be allowed to stymie it.
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Anecdotally, this appears to be a growing problem and really needs addressing by TfL.

There are bus waiting bays in Surbiton and sometimes the 281 terminates at Surbiton and waits in the bay. So it's possible to run buses shorter even now. Not sure if these are timetabled to finish early though.

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[Romilly]

Returning to the original subject-matter of the thread, I touched in on a London bus at 2359 yesterday, and my touch-in on my second London bus - at 0039 today - was free. My Oyster record says that the second journey was not charged because it was recognised as a continuation journey. So the one-hour hopper fare is well and truly here.

 

[MikeWh]

Returning to the original subject-matter of the thread, I touched in on a London bus at 2359 yesterday, and my touch-in on my second London bus - at 0039 today - was free. My Oyster record says that the second journey was not charged because it was recognised as a continuation journey. So the one-hour hopper fare is well and truly here.

Looks like it was here a day early too.

I can also report further on how long an hour is. My first attempt at touching in on the second bus on 69-70 minutes failed miserably due to a distinct lack of buses in Bexleyheath town centre at the required time. I was prepared to touch in on any bus, any route, but there weren't any. The net result is that I can confirm that 71 minutes is too long. My second attempt was after 64 minutes and this was accepted, so there is somewhere between 4 and 10 minutes grace at the end of the hour. I'll try again tomorrow.

 

[Busaholic]

Looks like it was here a day early too.

I can also report further on how long an hour is. My first attempt at touching in on the second bus on 69-70 minutes failed miserably due to a distinct lack of buses in Bexleyheath town centre at the required time. I was prepared to touch in on any bus, any route, but there weren't any. The net result is that I can confirm that 71 minutes is too long. My second attempt was after 64 minutes and this was accepted, so there is somewhere between 4 and 10 minutes grace at the end of the hour. I'll try again tomorrow.

I think your post shows why what is on the face of it a good idea, meant to be helpful to bus users, will generate bad publicity, maybe unfairly, but...

You were prepared to get on any bus, just to test the system, but someone who has just arrived on a 96 from Woolwich, say, and then has a theoretical 10 minutes (but actually 20 minutes) to board a 229, just misses one and, in practice has to wait 22 minutes before another arrives, will feel aggrieved because, in theory, there should have been a 229 to board within that time period. I know local papers are not what they were, but the letters pages will be full of it, plus social media of course. No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[MikeWh]

I think your post shows why what is on the face of it a good idea, meant to be helpful to bus users, will generate bad publicity, maybe unfairly, but...

You were prepared to get on any bus, just to test the system, but someone who has just arrived on a 96 from Woolwich, say, and then has a theoretical 10 minutes (but actually 20 minutes) to board a 229, just misses one and, in practice has to wait 22 minutes before another arrives, will feel aggrieved because, in theory, there should have been a 229 to board within that time period. I know local papers are not what they were, but the letters pages will be full of it, plus social media of course. No good deed goes unpunished.

Well I've now managed a 68 minute hour so I think we can safely assume that the boundary is 70 minutes. As long as the perception is that the facility lasts for an hour, and if you get lucky in the following 10 minutes then you've won £1.50, TfL should be reasonably safe from criticism. They really can't be held responsible for every little traffic hold-up. Who should be responsible if the queue in Marks means you miss your free bus home by a couple of minutes?

 

[londonbridge]

Here's something I've thought of. If, as initial reports suggest, you only get one free transfer, how much time would need to elapse after you touched on the second bus before touching on a third bus would be classed as a "new" journey and make you eligible for a second free transfer if you touched on a fourth bus within one hour of touching on the third one??

 

[transmanche]

Here's something I've thought of. If, as initial reports suggest, you only get one free transfer, how much time would need to elapse after you touched on the second bus before touching on a third bus would be classed as a "new" journey and make you eligible for a second free transfer if you touched on a fourth bus within one hour of touching on the third one??

I'd imagine zero seconds.

 

[Deerfold]

Here's something I've thought of. If, as initial reports suggest, you only get one free transfer, how much time would need to elapse after you touched on the second bus before touching on a third bus would be classed as a "new" journey and make you eligible for a second free transfer if you touched on a fourth bus within one hour of touching on the third one??

As yet you can only make one transfer. The Mayor wants it to let you catch as many buses in an hour as you like but the system cannot currently cope with that without further development so that's some months off.

The only time of relevance is the touching in on the first bus - this is what any comparisons will be made with.

 

[Busaholic]

Well I've now managed a 68 minute hour so I think we can safely assume that the boundary is 70 minutes. As long as the perception is that the facility lasts for an hour, and if you get lucky in the following 10 minutes then you've won £1.50, TfL should be reasonably safe from criticism. They really can't be held responsible for every little traffic hold-up. Who should be responsible if the queue in Marks means you miss your free bus home by a couple of minutes?

The concept of 'delay repay' has come to the fore in railway commuterland. The opposite will be the case in TfL busland: if delayed, you may have to pay twice. The analogy with the queue in Marks may be true in the case of a delay in your first bus journey, and most regular travellers would accept such, but if no bus on your second route turns up after you've got off the first, within a reasonable time, then people may feel aggrieved. I'm not speaking personally, my commuting days are long over, and in any case I travel for free on London buses. I just feel I've learned enough about human nature over the years, as well as knowledge of the London bus network, to foresee inevitable shortcomings.

 

[PermitToTravel]

As yet you can only make one transfer. The Mayor wants it to let you catch as many buses in an hour as you like but the system cannot currently cope with that without further development so that's some months off.

The only time of relevance is the touching in on the first bus - this is what any comparisons will be made with.

londonbridge was asking what the minimum time would be between two separate bus journeys, each composed of two legs and treated as a connection. I imagine that transmanche is right - it would be interesting to find out

 

[Bletchleyite]

londonbridge was asking what the minimum time would be between two separate bus journeys, each composed of two legs and treated as a connection. I imagine that transmanche is right - it would be interesting to find out

I would agree it will be zero. Taking the second journey will close the fare off so you will restart with a new fare on the third touch-in, and if within 60/70 minutes of the third touch-in a fourth will be free.
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The concept of 'delay repay' has come to the fore in railway commuterland. The opposite will be the case in TfL busland: if delayed, you may have to pay twice. The analogy with the queue in Marks may be true in the case of a delay in your first bus journey, and most regular travellers would accept such, but if no bus on your second route turns up after you've got off the first, within a reasonable time, then people may feel aggrieved. I'm not speaking personally, my commuting days are long over, and in any case I travel for free on London buses. I just feel I've learned enough about human nature over the years, as well as knowledge of the London bus network, to foresee inevitable shortcomings.

That is a downside, but at least people are now no longer penalised once by having no direct bus and again financially.

It's not perfect, but it is vastly better than the prehistoric British approach of "pay per vehicle" which has traditionally been the case, and which ruins the whole concept of a transport network in which one should pay for a journey regardless of how it is made, not a single vehicle (or for that matter Tube) use.

 

[Deerfold]

I would agree it will be zero. Taking the second journey will close the fare off so you will restart with a new fare on the third touch-in, and if within 60/70 minutes of the third touch-in a fourth will be free.

Indeed. The software updates are needed before the system can look more than one bus journey back to work out what a fare should be- the only reason it can at the moment is because of the Croydon Tram feeder routes.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You were prepared to get on any bus, just to test the system, but someone who has just arrived on a 96 from Woolwich, say, and then has a theoretical 10 minutes (but actually 20 minutes) to board a 229, just misses one and, in practice has to wait 22 minutes before another arrives, will feel aggrieved because, in theory, there should have been a 229 to board within that time period. I know local papers are not what they were, but the letters pages will be full of it, plus social media of course. No good deed goes unpunished.

That problem already existed even without the hopper ticket. Firstly, if your journey involved taking a bus, then getting a train or tube shortly before peak fares kick in, a delay to the bus journey could result in your paying peak fares for the subsequent rail journey.

Secondly, if travelling late at night on multiple buses, a delay to the first bus could result in the next bus being timed as next-day, which would result in higher fares if you were close to the daily cap.

I'll grant that those (especially the 2nd one) are likely to be less common than someone using multiple bus journeys, but the fact that you don't ever hear about complaints about people paying more in those situations rather suggests to me that the hopper ticket will work fine in that regard too.

It also crosses my mind that, if someone really is so close to the hour on their first journey that a delay pushes them over the 70 minutes that appears to be the actual window, then they were probably making quite a long journey in the first place - and therefore possibly not within the target market for the hopper fare (although that in itself probably won't stop people complaining if they feel like it).

 

[infobleep]

Indeed. The software updates are needed before the system can look more than one bus journey back to work out what a fare should be- the only reason it can at the moment is because of the Croydon Tram feeder routes.

What are the Croydon team feeder routes?

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That problem already existed even without the hopper ticket. Firstly, if your journey involved taking a bus, then getting a train or tube shortly before peak fares kick in, a delay to the bus journey could result in your paying peak fares for the subsequent rail journey.

Secondly, if travelling late at night on multiple buses, a delay to the first bus could result in the next bus being timed as next-day, which would result in higher fares if you were close to the daily cap.

I'll grant that those (especially the 2nd one) are likely to be less common than someone using multiple bus journeys, but the fact that you don't ever hear about complaints about people paying more in those situations rather suggests to me that the hopper ticket will work fine in that regard too.

It also crosses my mind that, if someone really is so close to the hour on their first journey that a delay pushes them over the 70 minutes that appears to be the actual window, then they were probably making quite a long journey in the first place - and therefore possibly not within the target market for the hopper fare (although that in itself probably won't stop people complaining if they feel like it).

If you had a 30 minute bus journey that was delayed by 40 minutes due to a road traffic accident and the final bit of your journey was short, then you could get over the limit. This is rare mind you.

Just occurred to me. Those with a long journey to start with and then a short one, might pay twice but those with the short journey first and then the longer one wouldn't. Again this isn't exactly common. One can't cater for all.

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