Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Starmill]

But savings made by having a Thameslink only ticket could be put towards traveling on a GX or SN service if necessary and during disruption tickets are generally passed on each others trains

Controversial

 

[AlterEgo]

Incredible amount of mealy-mouthed nonsense in this thread. Implying it's the passenger's fault for living in Sussex and daring to trust the trains (and give them thousands of £££ a year) is a new level of oddness even for RUK.

 

[BestWestern]

• To my mind this begs the question whether industrial action shouldn't have more checks and balances.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the infrastructure of the country to actually work, both in terms of employer or employee expectations. Business positions itself, mainly because of materials, services, and access to labour/customers (which implies transport provision) you cannot expect zero backlash/economic damage if someone just decides to withdraw that service. London would never have existed without its ports, and wouldn't have grown to what it is today or have international importance complete with the jobs on offer, without its rails, airports and roads.

Perhaps you could expand? To me, that reads 'strikes shouldn't be allowed'? Checks and balances are already in place, and are scrutinised microscopically by employers looking to crush the will of their staff via the courts. If it goes ahead, it has already passed more 'checks and balances' than you may imagine. People don't just down tools when the shop steward says any more. If you missed it, the Tories already have plans for further restriction of workers' rights, and it was quickly established that recent disputes would have passed those requirements, too.

Industrial action, by its very nature, will always cause inconvenience. None of us enjoy that when we're suffering because of it, however I will always maintain that only the weak would refuse to do the same if it were their bread and butter being put at risk. This isn't greedy workers demanding more pay, or any of the other favourite tabloid insults so often rolled out in strike situations. This is people fearing for their ability to feed their families, and genuine concerns that cost cutting is going to lead to safety issues.

There will be more strike action to come as the DfT continues to slash and hack at railway staff. Guards don't want it, Drivers don't want it, station staff don't want it. Politicians and the bean counters want it. Best get used to the disruption I'm afraid.

 

[Carlisle]

They didn't when I lived in Apsley, the station that London Midland forgot.

Minor stations like as Apsley and Balcombe have always had fairly poor service levels mostly due to their proximity to larger towns like Hemel and Crawley in those examples

 

[Taunton]

Conversely, my understanding is, all those light industrial estates built in the 60s, 70s and 80s have huge problems getting staff as the jobs are relatively low paid and are these places are not served by public transport.

This is actually true of a great deal of London outside the Circle Line. Unless you happen to live further out on the same line that happens to pass your workplace (and has an appropriate station) then car commuting becomes the only practical way - certainly for any job outside the North Circular Road. The railway still believes that all jobs are in the centre of London. That changed generations ago.

 

[al78]

Incredible amount of mealy-mouthed nonsense in this thread. Implying it's the passenger's fault for living in Sussex and daring to trust the trains (and give them thousands of £££ a year) is a new level of oddness even for RUK.

It is similar to the cycling extremists on the cyclechat forum, who are adament that a car is a luxury, not a necessity, firstly because it is possible to survive without one, and secondly because people choose where to work, choose where to live, choose to have children, choose to have hobbies that need a car for transport, choose this, that and the other etc, so therefore their supposed car dependence is entirely self inflicted.

 

[yorkie]

I was referring more to the difference between prices on the Uckfield and East Grinstead lines, compared to those on the BML. But savings made by having a Thameslink only ticket could be put towards traveling on a GX or SN service if necessary and during disruption tickets are generally passed on each others trains

each other? It's one company! Even if it wasn't one company, during disruption they have to accept other companies' tickets as that's the rules!

 

[infobleep]

I was referring more to the difference between prices on the Uckfield and East Grinstead lines, compared to those on the BML. But savings made by having a Thameslink only ticket could be put towards traveling on a GX or SN service if necessary and during disruption tickets are generally passed on each others trains

I wasn't talking about disruption though, just the days you could travel due to one operator not running a service on said day or even on another day the operator not running a service at a time that suits you as they only run at odd times of the day.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Minor stations like as Apsley and Balcombe have always had fairly poor service levels mostly due to their proximity to larger towns like Hemel and Crawley in those examples

Of course if you live in those places and don't drive, it doesn't matter how close you are to other larger towns.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[dviner]

They didn't when I lived in Apsley, the station that London Midland forgot.

At least it's possible to walk from Hemel Hempstead to Apsley (when the weather isn't too bad). Kings Langley on the other hand...

 

[highdyke]

Perhaps you could expand? To me, that reads 'strikes shouldn't be allowed'? Checks and balances are already in place, and are scrutinised microscopically by employers looking to crush the will of their staff via the courts. If it goes ahead, it has already passed more 'checks and balances' than you may imagine. People don't just down tools when the shop steward says any more. If you missed it, the Tories already have plans for further restriction of workers' rights, and it was quickly established that recent disputes would have passed those requirements, too.

Industrial action, by its very nature, will always cause inconvenience. None of us enjoy that when we're suffering because of it, however I will always maintain that only the weak would refuse to do the same if it were their bread and butter being put at risk. This isn't greedy workers demanding more pay, or any of the other favourite tabloid insults so often rolled out in strike situations. This is people fearing for their ability to feed their families, and genuine concerns that cost cutting is going to lead to safety issues.

There will be more strike action to come as the DfT continues to slash and hack at railway staff. Guards don't want it, Drivers don't want it, station staff don't want it. Politicians and the bean counters want it. Best get used to the disruption I'm afraid.

It means what it says, it begs the question if checks and balances for all involved (officials, politicians, staff, managers) are required to avoid a similar situation occurring. IE a complete industrial breakdown. Thus to avoid people that pay for the service and depend on it being let down quite so badly. The comment does not imply what, if any, these should be. It acknowledges many people have been badly let down by all involved and in some cases are paying a heavy personal price through no fault of their own.

 

[redbutton]

There are some bizarre claims being made, but this is all rather off-topic.

If central London businesses want all their staff to be based near the office, they're going to have to pay significantly higher wages than would otherwise be the case, as otherwise no-one would be able to afford to work for them!

Commuting is essential, and without it your job may not exist...

The "best of times" in many parts of GTR-land haven't been seen for over a year!

I didn't say they should be based near the office, but I think it's equally extreme to put oneself at the end of a 1tph branch line with no backup plan. What if a natural disaster or a mishap such as a derailment took it out of action for weeks or months, such as has happened on some of the coastal lines in recent years? Or the flooding in the southwest?

But more to the topic of disruption caused by conductor shortages, a year ago it was driver shortages causing all the trouble yet the drivers were never striking- it was the company's lack of a realistic manpower plan creating an inability to cover normal sickness and absence levels.

GTR haven't been backfilling conductor vacancies for a while, yet it's the conductors' fault the company can't cover the work when they go sick? Each one with a verified sick note, I might add.

Outside of a few days of strike action, the conductors haven't directly caused any of this.

 

[philthetube]

It means what it says, it begs the question if checks and balances for all involved (officials, politicians, staff, managers) are required to avoid a similar situation occurring. IE a complete industrial breakdown. Thus to avoid people that pay for the service and depend on it being let down quite so badly. The comment does not imply what, if any, these should be. It acknowledges many people have been badly let down by all involved and in some cases are paying a heavy personal price through no fault of their own.

I have said this before but I honestly feel that if negotiations had to be in the public eye before industrial action could take place then both sides would be under much greater pressure to settle, not wanting to be seen to be the one at fault.

 

[FordFocus]

But more to the topic of disruption caused by conductor shortages, a year ago it was driver shortages causing all the trouble yet the drivers were never striking- it was the company's lack of a realistic manpower plan creating an inability to cover normal sickness and absence levels.

GTR haven't been backfilling conductor vacancies for a while, yet it's the conductors' fault the company can't cover the work when they go sick? Each one with a verified sick note, I might add.

Outside of a few days of strike action, the conductors haven't directly caused any of this.

The early days of the GTR problems were down to the myth of staff sickness and unofficial action that has now been dampened down by some media outlets to eventually Southern been blamed for not recruiting or having the right numbers of staff. They cab only blame themselves for that. Govia inherited the Southern part of TSGN franchise from erm.... err.. Govia?

Some are insisting the union are telling guards to take part in unofficial action by booking sick but not only would the union be in very hot water over that, no one has been able to produce evidence of that. The staff on the sick have valid doctors sick notes and the union could quite easily post rostering links with [vacancy] in them showing where the real issue for this lies...

 

[Deepgreen]

It has probably been mentioned before, but a worrying facet of the current state of Southern is their apparent complete unaccountability to anyone but HMG, who, being the puppet-masters, are complicit in their failure. The practical result of this is the inability of passengers to complain effectively to anyone about the situation - writing to Southern obviously bears no fruit - even if/when they reply, the response is always so generic as to be useless. Taking the issue to a watchdog is also a dead end, as they are so toothless as to be virtually useless as well. The next rung in the ladder could be writing to one's local MP, but, as almost all are part of the complicit Government, this also leads nowhere. The democratic response of voting them out in 2020 is of no comfort in the present day. Any possible legal challenge mounted by passengers is likely to be so expensive and protracted as to be impractical too.

Depressing.

 

[GadgetMan]

I doubt it'll make any difference to the DOO supporters, but the incident at Watford is a reminder of why a second properly trained competent member of staff is required on all passenger trains. Had the derailed train come to a stand a couple more metres away from the tunnel wall then it's entirely possible that both Drivers would have ended up out of action leaving the Guards with the responsibility of communicating the situation to the signaller and looking after passengers. Assuming neither Driver in such an event had the time/opportunity to hit the Red button on GSMR then the signalman would have no idea what's happened beyond the knowledge that two trains had stopped in the tunnel. This on DOO trains would delay emergency services being called. I appreciate some passengers still had mobile phone reception, had they been a little further in the tunnel then no mobile other than GSMR would've had any reception.

I appreciate some will still argue the above is hypothetical and the chances of something similar happening are remote. However it's important to note that the incident yesterday wasn't far off being a true disaster with all the so called improbable ingredients mixing together. Do we really need it to happen before we wake up?

 

[HH]

Do we really need it to happen before we wake up?

Based on the historical evidence, yes.

 

[AlterEgo]

I doubt it'll make any difference to the DOO supporters, but the incident at Watford is a reminder of why a second properly trained competent member of staff is required on all passenger trains. Had the derailed train come to a stand a couple more metres away from the tunnel wall then it's entirely possible that both Drivers would have ended up out of action leaving the Guards with the responsibility of communicating the situation to the signaller and looking after passengers. Assuming neither Driver in such an event had the time/opportunity to hit the Red button on GSMR then the signalman would have no idea what's happened beyond the knowledge that two trains had stopped in the tunnel. This on DOO trains would delay emergency services being called. I appreciate some passengers still had mobile phone reception, had they been a little further in the tunnel then no mobile other than GSMR would've had any reception.

I appreciate some will still argue the above is hypothetical and the chances of something similar happening are remote. However it's important to note that the incident yesterday wasn't far off being a true disaster with all the so called improbable ingredients mixing together. Do we really need it to happen before we wake up?

Let's assume the accident involved just a single train. It derailed and hit the tunnel mouth, killing the driver instantly. The 8 coaches are fouling both lines.

Which way does the guard walk to place his detonators?

 

[BestWestern]

Let's assume the accident involved just a single train. It derailed and hit the tunnel mouth, killing the driver instantly. The 8 coaches are fouling both lines.

Which way does the guard walk to place his detonators?

Forwards, whereupon the train approaching in the opposite direction would have observed his hand danger signals and come to a stop, ideally. The Guard would, however, first have laid track circuit clips, and then utilised the GSMR in the rear cab. Failing that, he'd have been looking to use either his mobile or the first SPT he came accross.

I'm unsure of what you're attempting to suggest, but what whatever it is this incident demonstrates precisely why all of this 'outdated, antiquated' etc etc stuff is still in the Rulebook. The s**t still hits the fan sometimes, and we still need people who are competent to deal with it.

 

[Carlisle]

. The staff on the sick have valid doctors sick notes ..

parts of the rail industry had gained a bit of a poor reputation for the amount of working days lost to staff sickness compared to many other industries long before the likes of GTR ever came into being

 

[highdyke]

Forwards, whereupon the train approaching in the opposite direction would have observed his hand danger signals and come to a stop, ideally. The Guard would, however, first have laid track circuit clips, and then utilised the GSMR in the rear cab. Failing that, he'd have been looking to use either his mobile or the first SPT he came accross.

I'm unsure of what you're attempting to suggest, but what whatever it is this incident demonstrates precisely why all of this 'outdated, antiquated' etc etc stuff is still in the Rulebook. The s**t still hits the fan sometimes, and we still need people who are competent to deal with it.

Except none of that would have prevented a further collision because in that case the line was fully protected by the occupation of axle counters. Track circuit clips would make no difference, the area has been resignalled with axle counters.

Potentially there could have been a communication issue IF both drivers were killed or badly injured AND no other railway staff was present with phones and GSM-R on BOTH trains AND there were no mobile signals for anyone else, but again we're back to risk.

The solution here is probably technology again to detect a derailment inside the tunnel (cables, laser, radio etc), thus to trigger an emergency alarm and put all signals back to danger in the area.

 

[BestWestern]

Except none of that would have prevented a further collision because in that case the line was fully protected by the occupation of axle counters. Track circuit clips would make no difference, the area has been resignalled with axle counters.

Potentially there could have been a communication issue IF both drivers were killed or badly injured AND no other railway staff was present with phones and GSM-R on BOTH trains AND there were no mobile signals for anyone else, but again we're back to risk.

The solution here is probably technology again to detect a derailment inside the tunnel (cables, laser, radio etc), thus to trigger an emergency alarm and put all signals back to danger in the area.

I had a feeling you were going to say that!

Ultimately, I know as well as you do that clips and dets are the very last resort, however you know as well as I do that they're not going anywhere for some time yet. In the above situation, having a second person there to do the crucial task of communication is a clear benefit, and I for one don't accept that the withdrawal of it to save a few quid is an acceptable strategy.

Let's forget the second train for a moment, and look at the first train. It derails at speed immediately before the tunnel - which is what happened - but then it strikes the tunnel mouth. Entirely plausible. You and I both know that Driver doesn't stand a good chance. He isn't contacting anybody. The second train is five minutes away, approaching at speed.

This is nothing more than a slight variation of what happened, in the real world, on our network, a few days ago. We can talk about risk, but time and again it is apparent that one day we are going to 'luck out', as they say, and that risk is going to bite us on the arse.

 

[ComUtoR]

Does anyone who was working 2 days ago remember what happened to the GSMR ? There was a very relevant Tyrell Message sent out

 

[grid56126]

Does anyone who was working 2 days ago remember what happened to the GSMR ? There was a very relevant Tyrell Message sent out

But it didn't stop the GSMR being used in an emergency did it. . .

 

[highdyke]

I had a feeling you were going to say that!

Ultimately, I know as well as you do that clips and dets are the very last resort, however you know as well as I do that they're not going anywhere for some time yet. In the above situation, having a second person there to do the crucial task of communication is a clear benefit, and I for one don't accept that the withdrawal of it to save a few quid is an acceptable strategy.

Let's forget the second train for a moment, and look at the first train. It derails at speed immediately before the tunnel - which is what happened - but then it strikes the tunnel mouth. Entirely plausible. You and I both know that Driver doesn't stand a good chance. He isn't contacting anybody. The second train is five minutes away, approaching at speed. This is nothing more than a slight variation of what happened, in the real world, on our network, a few days ago. We can talk about risk, but time and again it is apparent that one day we are going to 'luck out', as they say, and that risk is going to bite us on the arse.

One day something might happen, but then you have to weigh up risks and costs. Do we spend X money on Y, or X money on Z.

As you know I support two people on a train, so I'm with you on communications.

In terms of train protection, you can put track circuit clips down all you like on the WCML south of Basford Hall (though I think WM area used conventional TCs) it won't make a blind bit of difference. As for dets, you'd probably reach an SPT long before you could run braking distance putting them down, assuming your radio/mobile isn't working, and assuming (like in this case) the signals weren't being held at danger anyway.

 

[BestWestern]

One day something might happen, but then you have to weigh up risks and costs. Do we spend X money on Y, or X money on Z.

As you know I support two people on a train, so I'm with you on communications.

In terms of train protection, you can put track circuit clips down all you like on the WCML south of Basford Hall (though I think WM area used conventional TCs) it won't make a blind bit of difference. As for dets, you'd probably reach an SPT long before you could run braking distance putting them down, assuming your radio/mobile isn't working, and assuming (like in this case) the signals weren't being held at danger anyway.

I agree, you're unlikely to be walking 2km anywhere nowadays, but of course the rule remains. Perhaps some greater degree of clarity is needed so that crew don't waste time putting down clips as their first action where it is, as you say, completely futile.

The thing is, we talk about the risk of scenario A vs an investment in item B, but we continue to have accidents, even if our system is undoubtedly 'safe'. Derailments, collisions, trap & drags, they all happen. If we could say we've not had a serious incident for five years etc, then maybe the argument might start to make some sense. As it stands however, it simply looks like we are choosing to ignore what is right in front of us.

 

[Dave1987]

But it didn't stop the GSMR being used in an emergency did it. . .

Shows technology is fallible and not as perfect as some like to make out. Two days ago I was repeatedly losing signal coverage on the GSMR because of the heavy cloud cover.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Perhaps some greater degree of clarity is needed so that crew don't waste time putting down clips as their first action where it is, as you say, completely futile.

Shouldn't that be part of their route knowledge anyway, knowing which sections use axle counters and which sections use track circuits?

 

[BestWestern]

Shouldn't that be part of their route knowledge anyway, knowing which sections use axle counters and which sections use track circuits?

It's generally a fairly 'grey' area, with the instruction remaining that clips go down first when peotecting. The risk is of people mistakenly believing they are in axle counter territory and neglecting to put down clips when in fact they should have done.

 

[swt class 450]

Earlier today i had an on board supervisor (OBS) on board a Southern service and he definitely didnt seem to know as much as a Guard. He announced "We are now approaching Clapham Junction. Change here for South West Trains to Reading , Watford Junction , Milton Keynes , Birmingham , Dover , Ashford and Wimbledon and for London Overground services to Stratford , Richmond , Twickenham and London Bridge." Im sure most people on this forum can see everything that is wrong with that announcement. They clearly havent been given enough training. I also spoke to an OBS yesterday who said he used to be an RPI.

 

[physics34]

Earlier today i had an on board supervisor (OBS) on board a Southern service and he definitely didnt seem to know as much as a Guard. He announced "We are now approaching Clapham Junction. Change here for South West Trains to Reading , Watford Junction , Milton Keynes , Birmingham , Dover , Ashford and Wimbledon and for London Overground services to Stratford , Richmond , Twickenham and London Bridge." Im sure most people on this forum can see everything that is wrong with that announcement. They clearly havent been given enough training. I also spoke to an OBS yesterday who said he used to be an RPI.

i believe all the current OBS's are all ex-RPIs.