No ticket

[snorlax]

I got a train into Manchester Victoria this morning and had not previously bought a ticket as the station I left from is unmanned/no ticket machine. I ended up getting a ticket from the conductor on the train instead.

Upon leaving the station, there was two officials who asked for my ticket, which I must have left on the train. I explained this and expected that they wouldn't believe me, but they instead took my details/details of my journey and explained that I would get a letter in 4 weeks probably just educating me about fares/fines etc. He also said that they would check the CCTV back...

What can/should I expect from this?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I got a train into Manchester Victoria this morning and had not previously bought a ticket as the station I left from is unmanned/no ticket machine. I ended up getting a ticket from the conductor on the train instead.

Upon leaving the station, there was two officials who asked for my ticket, which I must have left on the train. I explained this and expected that they wouldn't believe me, but they instead took my details/details of my journey and explained that I would get a letter in 4 weeks probably just educating me about fares/fines etc. He also said that they would check the CCTV back...

What can/should I expect from this?

Thanks in advance.

You will need to state your station of origin. Did you get a receipt from the conductor?

 

[gray1404]

Where exactly did they approach you? Was it as your were coming off the platform at the ticket barrier or once you were out on the street/out of the actual station already? The problem is if you were unable to show your ticket as your were coming off the train then they have you guilty of a byelaw offence for not being able to show a ticket.

I would personally refuse to enter into any dialogue with anyone once I have exited the station it's self but that's not relevant here.

 

[Clip]

Where exactly did they approach you? Was it as your were coming off the platform at the ticket barrier or once you were out on the street/out of the actual station already? The problem is if you were unable to show your ticket as your were coming off the train then they have you guilty of a byelaw offence for not being able to show a ticket.

I would personally refuse to enter into any dialogue with anyone once I have exited the station it's self but that's not relevant here.

You are right its not relevant to the op yet you mentioned it anyway. Its also worth pointing out that station property can extend my further from outside the station building than most people would think so be careful when you think you may be in the right you're actually in the wrong.

As for the op you will have to wait for the letter really but not being able to poriduce a ticket when asked for it is an offence I'm afraid.

 

[snorlax]

I got on at Rose Grove and didn't get a receipt no.

They approached me as I was coming off the platform and towards the exit. The exit I use doesn't have barriers, so they occasionally put staff there to filter out the faredodgers.

I appreciate that it was my mistake and also appreciate how it might look, but the guy made out as though I would just be sent some sort of guidance from Northern rather than be fined... I'm just a bit worried now though that it may be something else...

 

[Bletchleyite]

You will need to state your station of origin. Did you get a receipt from the conductor?

Did you pay by card? If evidence is requested, a bank statement exerpt to Northern for the correct sum may be accepted as evidence.

 

[najaB]

I appreciate that it was my mistake and also appreciate how it might look, but the guy made out as though I would just be sent some sort of guidance from Northern rather than be fined... I'm just a bit worried now though that it may be something else...

Given that it's Northern the two most likely outcomes are either a sternly worded letter saying that they've let you off this time but they won't next time, or an £80 fixed penalty notice.

 

[Tetchytyke]

NRE says that Rose Grove has a ticket machine, which complicates things.

If Rose Grove did not have ticket retailing facilities, then no Byelaw offence would have been committed. However it apparently does have a ticket machine.

If you paid by card, you could send the bank statement as it will show Northern as the retailer, the amount and the date of the transaction.

If you paid by cash, you'll be in a much more difficult position.

 

[snorlax]

I wasn't aware of it having a ticket machine; it might do, but I haven't seen it before. I got one on the train though and told the guy who stopped me also.

Unfortunately I paid using cash, so I'm guessing there's no way of proving otherwise? Is there CCTV on trains that they could refer to to check?

 

[Haywain]

If you paid by card, you could send the bank statement as it will show Northern as the retailer, the amount and the date of the transaction.

I do not think that it is always the case that the date of the transaction is shown, my bank account often shows a slightly different date which I assume to be the date that the transaction completed processing. With an on train payment, which is likely to have been processed off-line, this is quite likely to be the case.

 

[Clip]

I do not think that it is always the case that the date of the transaction is shown, my bank account often shows a slightly different date which I assume to be the date that the transaction completed processing. With an on train payment, which is likely to have been processed off-line, this is quite likely to be the case.

Ive always thought this never a good idea as it only proves you bought the ticket from them not that actually used it to travel - and yes, everyone, there are peo[ple who will travel together and try this trick before you pipe up.

All the Op can really do is wait to see what they say to him in their letter

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do not think that it is always the case that the date of the transaction is shown, my bank account often shows a slightly different date which I assume to be the date that the transaction completed processing. With an on train payment, which is likely to have been processed off-line, this is quite likely to be the case.

The date of transaction is certainly known - the bank could perhaps provide that in another form if not on your particular statement format.

 

[snorlax]

Might it be worth me re-purchasing the ticket later on with a debit/credit card...? Guess it might put me in good stead if there are no time stamps and if it comes down to arguing the toss with them...

 

[Haywain]

The date of transaction is certainly known - the bank could perhaps provide that in another form if not on your particular statement format.

This is completely irrelevant now as the OP states that it was a cash transaction.

 

[najaB]

Might it be worth me re-purchasing the ticket later on with a debit/credit card...?

No as the time of issue is printed on the ticket.

 

[lyndhurst25]

This is the Rose Grove ticket machine. Looks like it is card only. Does that help the OP?

http://www.communityraillancashire.co.uk/news/rose-grove-ticket-machine/

 

[najaB]

This is the Rose Grove ticket machine. Looks like it is card only. Does that help the OP?

Not really as they aren't at risk of charges of entering without a ticket, but rather of not being able to present on demand. They've already told Northern that they bought a ticket on board.

 

[miami]

Might it be worth me re-purchasing the ticket later on with a debit/credit card...? Guess it might put me in good stead if there are no time stamps and if it comes down to arguing the toss with them...

No, that would be at most a waste of money, and at worst an indication of attempted fraud. I'm afraid there is little evidence you can provide for your side of the story, and in these cases proving you are guilty beyond all reasonable doubt has an interesting definition of "reasonable", which is not in your favour (a credit card receipt or even CCTV showing you buying a ticket generally isn't counted as evidence enough to provide reasonable doubt)

As such you want to avoid court. If you're lucky you'll get an "I'm watching you son" letter saying don't do it again. It's unlikely you'll end up with worse than a £80 bill to make the whole thing go away.

Ironically if you hadn't bought the ticket on the train you would have been entitled to buy a ticket (for cash) at your destination station - assuming that Rose Hill is indeed a card only machine.

 

[bb21]

Ironically if you hadn't bought the ticket on the train you would have been entitled to buy a ticket (for cash) at your destination station - assuming that Rose Hill is indeed a card only machine.

No.

The OP had an opportunity to pay onboard. Ignoring it is pretty conclusive proof of fare evasion.

Some of our RPIs will work with guards, making sure that they walk around a few times offering an opportunity to sell tickets to those who need it prior to reporting all those who ignored the opportunity.

I believe other TOCs are cottoning on to this technique. You never know when this may be the case with your train.

 

[6Gman]

No.

The OP had an opportunity to pay onboard. Ignoring it is pretty conclusive proof of fare evasion.

Some of our RPIs will work with guards, making sure that they walk around a few times offering an opportunity to sell tickets to those who need it prior to reporting all those who ignored the opportunity.

I believe other TOCs are cottoning on to this technique. You never know when this may be the case with your train.

Sorry, didn't the OP say he bought on the train but then left said ticket on the train?

 

[bb21]

Sorry, didn't the OP say he bought on the train but then left said ticket on the train?

He did.

I thought we were comparing the case of buying onboard but "losing" the ticket, and not buying at all.

 

[miami]

You're referring to a case when the TM doesn't check tickets, just races through muttering "anyone need a ticket", which someone with a head in a book may well miss?

 

[bb21]

You're referring to a case when the TM doesn't check tickets, just races through muttering "anyone need a ticket", which someone with a head in a book may well miss?

That cannot possibly be a valid line of defence, otherwise all fare dodgers can simply claim that they were engrossed in a personal matter.

If one boarded a service without a ticket, it is imperative that one keeps an eye out for the opportunity to pay. The responsibility remains the passenger's, with the only defence being that no such opportunity existed.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

snorlax, I'm sorry that you are being given some poor advice on this forum (as well as some highly reliable and informed advice). This in particulare is both wrong and misleading to you:

You're referring to a case when the TM doesn't check tickets, just races through muttering "anyone need a ticket", which someone with a head in a book may well miss?

We understand that you DID buy your ticket from the ticket seller on-board, so the situation paulweaver raises is simply irrelevant. bb21 correctly explains that situation.

Then paulweaver's attempt to fragment a railway company's ticket retailling into two categories. These are not founded in fact, are misleading and are also irrelevant. [one category includes ticket offices operated to a certain standard, and the other includes a ticket seller who "just races through muttering "anyone need a ticket", which someone with a head in a book may well miss"].

Please be very cautious in taking advice from this forum.

 

[scrapy]

Agreed that some of the advice is irrelevant.

The OP boarded at Rose Grove where there is a card only TVM and no ticket office. The op was paying cash so was perfectly ok to purchase on the train which the op said they did.

Northern could pursue a RORA prosecution for fare evasion but they would have to persuade a court that the OP intended to avoid payment and didn't buy a ticket. The fact that the op was stopped by revenue officers leaving the station suggests that the OP left by the Arena car park doors rather than through the ticket barriers. If this is the case, this will not help the OP s case as these doors are now marked as an emergency exit only and a Northern may use this to demonstrate the OP was trying to avoid payment by avoiding the ticket barriers. Northern may not go down this road however it would depend upon the magistrates on the day. If they do this would likely cost the OP 200 to 500 in fines, costs, compensation and victim surcharge and would come with a criminal record.

Much easier for Northern is a bylaws prosecution for failing to produce a ticket. This would be almost certain to go in Northern's favour in court. Even if the OP had paid by card and had bank statements Northern would not be interested in this and they would still almost certainally win in court. This would likely carry a 200 to 300 pound cost to the OP in fines, compenstaion and court costs.

If the OP has no previous dealings with Northern's prosecutions unit then they will likely offer an out of court settlement of 80 pounds plus the fare. If the OP is lucky they may only ask for the fare. The OP does not have a right to an out of court settlement and will depend on what is in the revenue officers report.

Just to add that revenue officers do not have access to CCTV so if they have said that it is a bit naughty.

 

[clagmonster]

Much easier for Northern is a bylaws prosecution for failing to produce a ticket. This would be almost certain to go in Northern's favour in court. Even if the OP had paid by card and had bank statements Northern would not be interested in this and they would still almost certainally win in court. This would likely carry a 200 to 300 pound cost to the OP in fines, compenstaion and court costs.

Would it stick though? The following is an extract from Byelaw 18, which I suspect is the byelaw you intend to use:
"(2)
A person sh
all hand over his ticket f
o
r inspectio
n
and verification of validity
when asked
to do so by an authorise
d
person.
(3) No person shall be
in breach of
Byelaw 18(1
)
or 18(2) if:
16
(i)
there were no facilit
ies in
working order
for the issue or
validation
of
any ticket a
t
the time when, and the
station whe
r
e,
he began his journey"
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

Now clearly 2 holds, there is no dispute that the passenger failed to provide a ticket for inspection.

However, could clause 3i be invoked in defence as the ticket machine at Rose Grove did not accept all forms of payment?

 

[philthetube]

I admit that I don't know about this but would the guards ticket machine record tickets sold and could the op mention this, Rose Grove to Manchester is not a direct service and probably not that common a journey?

 

[scrapy]

I admit that I don't know about this but would the guards ticket machine record tickets sold and could the op mention this, Rose Grove to Manchester is not a direct service and probably not that common a journey?

Yes the guards ticket machine does record tickets sold however Rose Grove to Manchester is a direct service and is a common journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would it stick though? The following is an extract from Byelaw 18, which I suspect is the byelaw you intend to use:
"(2)
A person sh
all hand over his ticket f
o
r inspectio
n
and verification of validity
when asked
to do so by an authorise
d
person.
(3) No person shall be
in breach of
Byelaw 18(1
)
or 18(2) if:
16
(i)
there were no facilit
ies in
working order
for the issue or
validation
of
any ticket a
t
the time when, and the
station whe
r
e,
he began his journey"
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

Now clearly 2 holds, there is no dispute that the passenger failed to provide a ticket for inspection.

However, could clause 3i be invoked in defence as the ticket machine at Rose Grove did not accept all forms of payment?

Don't think clause 3i could be invoked as the OP claimed they had already bought a ticket so a court would probably see it as irrelevant as the actual purchase of a ticket is not the problem and the OP has clearly had the opportunity to purchase their ticket.

 

[sheff1]

Rose Grove to Manchester is not a direct service and probably not that common a journey?

How is an hourly direct train not a "direct service" ?

 

[philthetube]

I admit it, I was wrong