Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[ComUtoR]

In between making announcements they sat down chatting to a colleague. Just remind me how they benefit the passenger?

Good customer service - Making announcement.
Safety and Security - Staff visibility.
Revenue - Staff visibility reduces "chancers" and provides good customer service with an opportunity to pay.
Train wasn't cancelled due to staff sickness

Pretty good I'd say.

 

[JamesTT]

In between making announcements they sat down chatting to a colleague. Just remind me how they benefit the passenger?

Sounds like plenty of the conductors, :roll:

 

[Fincra5]

Good customer service - Making announcement.
Safety and Security - Staff visibility.
Revenue - Staff visibility reduces "chancers" and provides good customer service with an opportunity to pay.
Train wasn't cancelled due to staff sickness

Pretty good I'd say.

Like a conductor....

 

[HH]

Which is gutting but again; who's problem is that. Is it the fault of the Guards that their wage is decent or the fault of the teachers that their role is underpaid ?

Should the Guards wage be deliberately deflated because Teachers are underpaid ? Should training always equate to a higher salary ? Surely its better to fight for those who are certainly underpaid than deride the wage of others ? Teachers also strike for pay and conditions but the level of vitriol aimed at Guard is shocking.

The Teacher role is also very varied. Not all Teachers are underpaid and some earn a reasonable salary. It's one of those professions that pays badly at the lower end but at the higher end it changes.

Not every job requires training and are much better paid than a Teacher.

TBH the only people who need to be paid less are the guys on silly money, earning hundreds of times the average wages of other employees. Most of them aren't even up to their jobs. A lot of people should be paid more - the minimum wage should be raised 50% IMO; I have no time for companies that can only exist because they pay staff starvation wages, which taxpayers have to subsidise.

As far as comparing wages, then clearly there are a number of factors that ought to count in determining relative wage rates if things were fair, and that would include unpaid training needed, but also pension arrangements, working conditions, shift patterns, annual leave, unpaid overtime, etc. It's very difficult to compare dissimilar jobs. And yes, Teachers can move up the ladder and get paid more. But Conductors can become Managers or Drivers, so they also have the ability to earn more money in time.

If we compare Train Conductors to a similar job, HGV drivers, I think we know who is better off there under just about every metric you could think of. And that's really why I say that Conductors are relatively well-paid. That's not the same as saying that they're overpaid; I tend to think it's others who are underpaid, especially those who live in the South, given the horrific cost of housing.

 

[74A]

From the Brighton Station Twitter account:
The Conductor in charge of the train received the 'safe-to-depart' signal from the dispatch staff on the platform. He closed the doors. He got the second safe-to-depart signal from the platform staff and took one final check.
He noticed an elderly passenger with his walking stick trapped in the door. He contacted the driver explaining what had occurred. On looking at his monitor the driver reported that he saw the passenger as clear of the train. The image on his monitor did not show the stick trapped in the door.

This certainly highlights the risks of driver-only dispatch in the 377s, especially seeing as the dark, wintry morning and evenings (i.e. the rush hours) are getting nearer and nearer!

The important question is did the driver have interlock ? If he did then it should be reported as a wrong side failure. If not then the despatcher was at fault for not noticing it but the train would not have moved so there would be no risk. And if the passenger was clear of the train then it must mean they stuck there stick in the doors to stop them closing so they disregarded the hustle alarm and put themselves in danger.

 

[infobleep]

Which is gutting but again; who's problem is that. Is it the fault of the Guards that their wage is decent or the fault of the teachers that their role is underpaid ?

Should the Guards wage be deliberately deflated because Teachers are underpaid ? Should training always equate to a higher salary ? Surely its better to fight for those who are certainly underpaid than deride the wage of others ? Teachers also strike for pay and conditions but the level of vitriol aimed at Guard is shocking.

The Teacher role is also very varied. Not all Teachers are underpaid and some earn a reasonable salary. It's one of those professions that pays badly at the lower end but at the higher end it changes.

Not every job requires training and are much better paid than a Teacher.

Well one solution is to insist guards have four years training. It would be costly but at least they would match the teachers and that's is surely more important than anything else. :roll:

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From the Brighton Station Twitter account:
The Conductor in charge of the train received the 'safe-to-depart' signal from the dispatch staff on the platform. He closed the doors. He got the second safe-to-depart signal from the platform staff and took one final check.
He noticed an elderly passenger with his walking stick trapped in the door. He contacted the driver explaining what had occurred. On looking at his monitor the driver reported that he saw the passenger as clear of the train. The image on his monitor did not show the stick trapped in the door.

This certainly highlights the risks of driver-only dispatch in the 377s, especially seeing as the dark, wintry morning and evenings (i.e. the rush hours) are getting nearer and nearer!

Well some people say the country has to many people...
So I'm sure those wanting to get rid of the guard won't mind a death or two. I wouldn't though.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[GarethW]

From the Brighton Station Twitter account:
The Conductor in charge of the train received the 'safe-to-depart' signal from the dispatch staff on the platform. He closed the doors. He got the second safe-to-depart signal from the platform staff and took one final check.
He noticed an elderly passenger with his walking stick trapped in the door. He contacted the driver explaining what had occurred. On looking at his monitor the driver reported that he saw the passenger as clear of the train. The image on his monitor did not show the stick trapped in the door.

This certainly highlights the risks of driver-only dispatch in the 377s, especially seeing as the dark, wintry morning and evenings (i.e. the rush hours) are getting nearer and nearer!

Doesn't say a lot for the quality of the drivers cctv or the mk1 eyeballs of the platform dispatch staff.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well some people say the country has to many people...
So I'm sure those wanting to get rid of the guard won't mind a death or two.

What a crass thing to say.

 

[Don King]

What a crass thing to say.

Actually it isn't. I am in no doubt that those at the top will take into account the cost of employing guards and despatchers vs the cost in compensation paid out to the deaths / injuries that may occur from removing guards and despatchers, and expecting drivers to dispatch 12 car trains solely via CCTV on busy mainline stations.

In much the same way there was a cost / benefit analysis for TPWS rather than ATP.

Railtrack bosses got in the news for valuing a human live at £2.4 milion after all, in order to justify their decisions.

 

[Fincra5]

The important question is did the driver have interlock ? If he did then it should be reported as a wrong side failure. If not then the despatcher was at fault for not noticing it but the train would not have moved so there would be no risk. And if the passenger was clear of the train then it must mean they stuck there stick in the doors to stop them closing so they disregarded the hustle alarm and put themselves in danger.

Yes he did have interlock as far as i'm aware. A lot of sliding/ plug door trains have a tolerance with interlock. So its not a wrong side failure.

Its not the first time a crutch has been stuck in a door and interlock achieved.

It more shows the flaws in the older 377 CCTV.

 

[physics34]

"Bloody good" is in the eye of the beholder, but it's certainly more than kept price with inflation and against Average Weekly Earnings it's done better still. It's more than my son earns as a Teacher, which required 4 years training...

.and as i said, an Air Steward on 16k who, arguably, has a more intense job.

 

[Anvil1984]

Yes he did have interlock as far as i'm aware. A lot of sliding/ plug door trains have a tolerance with interlock. So its not a wrong side failure.

Its not the first time a crutch has been stuck in a door and interlock achieved.

It more shows the flaws in the older 377 CCTV.

Indeed, another example (albeit on Tyne and Wear Metro with platform monitors) is shown in this lovely video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exqBIx-V-_Y

 

[redbutton]

The important question is did the driver have interlock ? If he did then it should be reported as a wrong side failure. If not then the despatcher was at fault for not noticing it but the train would not have moved so there would be no risk. And if the passenger was clear of the train then it must mean they stuck there stick in the doors to stop them closing so they disregarded the hustle alarm and put themselves in danger.

There's a designed tolerance for objects stuck in the door seal before interlock is lost. On the 377 it's 25mm if I recall correctly. Just enough for a walking stick or a child's wrist.

Combine that with the public's belief that train doors are like lift doors (will spring back open if you touch the edge) and the industry's penchant for bare-minimum dwell times and DOO, and I'm not surprised that platform-train interface incidents are increasing.

 

[the sniper]

.and as i said, an Air Steward on 16k who, arguably, has a more intense job.

How many British air stewards have been/are being prosecuted for (allegedly) not doing their job properly over the last few years?

How easy is it for them to make a career ending mistake every couple of minutes, risking injury or death to someone, through lapse of concentration or otherwise?

If it weren't for the pay, do you think more people would prefer to be an air steward or a railway guard?

 

[pompeyfan]

No way are air stewards on that little money, even bottom of the chain low cost carriers are paid more than that.

Someone compared the job with HGV driving, when I worked in retail the drivers (multi drop roll cages) were on 26k a year. The real job that guards compare to in my opinion is bus driving, which only pays £18-£23k a year (less for those poor guys at Weymouth). That said the risk and knowledge is significantly more on the railways. It's like buses but on steroids.

Both Itv meridian and BBC south did a small bulletin on the dispute again, and the public tide is turning in favour of the guard, people don't want ANY train to run without a 2nd member of staff. The drum needs to be beat louder about dispatch safety though.

 

[AlterEgo]

How many British air stewards have been/are being prosecuted for (allegedly) not doing their job properly over the last few years?

How easy is it for them to make a career ending mistake every couple of minutes, risking injury or death to someone, through lapse of concentration or otherwise?

If it weren't for the pay, do you think more people would prefer to be an air steward or a railway guard?

That's all very true, but it misses the point.

People do get paid what they're worth.

Nonetheless, it's easy to see how railway staff salaries don't make for good politics. And not only that, but thanks to weak performance controls there's a lot of dead wood on the railway too.

I'm yet to see a guard on my commute since I returned from holiday on 23 August. No, the train is not impassable, and the train has time between stops to allow for revenue checks.

The last time my ticket was checked was by a member of this forum, who I'm sure didn't recognise me.

 

[Fincra5]

In my opinion, one of the largest farces is that GTR know the "modernisation" will directly affect people with disabilities/ requiring assistance who, by law, are currently able to turn up to a coastway train and board it as there is always a second member of staff onboard.

https://itsnotaboutthedoors.wordpress.com/2016/09/11/fatal-flaw-in-gtrs-modernisation-plan-exposed/

 

[ComUtoR]

.and as i said, an Air Steward on 16k who, arguably, has a more intense job.

So the Air Steward is clearly underpaid. What would you suggest the reason for the low remuneration is ? Why should a Guard get paid less because an Air Steward is paid a pittance ?

People do get paid what they're worth.

I don't believe they do. Salaries are influenced by many things. "worth" is judged by other people. An employer pays what they think the employee is worth and the employee wants what they think they are worth. Of course, others judge your salary on what you believe they are worth.

There is clearly a belief amongst posters that they believe a Guard is not worth what they get paid.


https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/refusecollector.aspx

Income

Salaries are typically around £15,000 to £19,000 a year for collectors and £20,000 for drivers.

Managers can earn around £25,000 a year.

Figures are intended as a guideline only.

Bloody working class scumbags. How dare they earn a decent wage.

What would you rather be. Binman or Air Steward ?

I went to school, got some education, went to college, couldn't be bothered to go to uni and went out to work. I'm pulling in a £50kpa job that didn't need any qualifications.

I have friends that studied for years, got their Masters, worked in a McJob, finally entered their chosen careers and still earn less than me. Ask yourself. Who's the clever one ? All those years of training and your degree is worth Jack Shee.

The system is broken but that really isn't the Guards fault.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm not sure why people are getting worked up about salaries anyway - unless everyone in this thread works in management or the Dft. Sacking guards does not result in cheaper fares.

 

[al78]

So the Air Steward is clearly underpaid. What would you suggest the reason for the low remuneration is ? Why should a Guard get paid less because an Air Steward is paid a pittance ?



I don't believe they do. Salaries are influenced by many things. "worth" is judged by other people. An employer pays what they think the employee is worth and the employee wants what they think they are worth. Of course, others judge your salary on what you believe they are worth.

There is clearly a belief amongst posters that they believe a Guard is not worth what they get paid.


https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/refusecollector.aspx


Bloody working class scumbags. How dare they earn a decent wage.

What would you rather be. Binman or Air Steward ?

I went to school, got some education, went to college, couldn't be bothered to go to uni and went out to work. I'm pulling in a £50kpa job that didn't need any qualifications.

I have friends that studied for years, got their Masters, worked in a McJob, finally entered their chosen careers and still earn less than me. Ask yourself. Who's the clever one ? All those years of training and your degree is worth Jack Shee.

Impossible question to answer, not enough information. Just because someone works in a higher paid job doesn't necessarily say anything about intelligence. It could be the university graduates took on a lower paid job than they theoretically could have obtained in exchange for a better quality of life. Having more money does not directly equate to improved quality of life, as some of those who have had to endure months of flaky, delayed, overcrowded, unpleasant Southern Fail commutes to get too and from their nicely paid London jobs will demonstrate.

 

[Harbon 1]

Isn't the average wage/salary £26,500?

 

[thelem]

Which is gutting but again; who's problem is that. Is it the fault of the Guards that their wage is decent or the fault of the teachers that their role is underpaid?

It's not the fault of the Guard, but don't expect any sympathy from teachers. Nor from minimum wage workers who are earning less than half a Guard's salary for a lot more than half a Guard's work. Nor from people who have lost their job because they no longer have a reliable way of getting to work.

 

[cjmillsnun]

From the Brighton Station Twitter account:
The Conductor in charge of the train received the 'safe-to-depart' signal from the dispatch staff on the platform. He closed the doors. He got the second safe-to-depart signal from the platform staff and took one final check.
He noticed an elderly passenger with his walking stick trapped in the door. He contacted the driver explaining what had occurred. On looking at his monitor the driver reported that he saw the passenger as clear of the train. The image on his monitor did not show the stick trapped in the door.

This certainly highlights the risks of driver-only dispatch in the 377s, especially seeing as the dark, wintry morning and evenings (i.e. the rush hours) are getting nearer and nearer!

This is exactly what the RMT need to highlight. There is the safety issue.

 

[Darandio]

It's not the fault of the Guard, but don't expect any sympathy from teachers.

I wouldn't expect to see any from them, remind me how many days holiday they get per year?

 

[chris11256]

I wouldn't expect to see any from them, remind me how many days holiday they get per year?

Tell me about it. I work in a school as IT staff, so I work year round. However you never hear the end of 'We don't spend 6 weeks sitting on a beach, we're constantly working from the day term ends'

One day I might actually believe that!

 

[ComUtoR]

It's not the fault of the Guard, but don't expect any sympathy from teachers.

I don't. Should they expect sympathy each time they go on strike ? Should I complain so vociferously about how much holiday they have per annum ?

Who should I ask for compensation when I need to take time off work for another inset day or another teacher strike day where I have to take time off work and lose a days wages because the teachers are on strike again ?

Nor from minimum wage workers who are earning less than half a Guard's salary for a lot more than half a Guard's work

Maybe they should have gone to university to better themselves and get a well paid job that required 15yrs of training and has to earn over £90kpa because they deserve it. Or just apply for a Guards job and shut up moaning about their own miserable jobs.

Nor from people who have lost their job because they no longer have a reliable way of getting to work.

If you can't get to work on time then its your own failure. People need to stop blaming the TOC's and the poor service because they cant plan a decent route to work. Not only that. Its pretty difficult to lose your job because you are late. How much continual lateness can be attributed to train delays to such an extent you get sacked ? Maybe if you work for Sports Direct.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wants to discuss teaching jobs, please create a new thread in General Discussion, thanks.

If you can't get to work on time then its your own failure. People need to stop blaming the TOC's and the poor service because they cant plan a decent route to work. Not only that. Its pretty difficult to lose your job because you are late. How much continual lateness can be attributed to train delays to such an extent you get sacked ? Maybe if you work for Sports Direct.

This cannot be a serious post! Surely??! Have you seen the state of the GTR network recently?

 

[GatwickDepress]

If you can't get to work on time then its your own failure. People need to stop blaming the TOC's and the poor service because they cant plan a decent route to work. Not only that. Its pretty difficult to lose your job because you are late. How much continual lateness can be attributed to train delays to such an extent you get sacked ? Maybe if you work for Sports Direct.

This has to be a troll post, surely?

 

[Carlisle]

The real job that guards compare to in my opinion is bus driving, which only pays £18-£23k a year (less for those poor guys at Weymouth). That said the risk and knowledge is significantly more on the railways. It's like buses but on steroids.
.

The risks and responsibilities expected of most bus drivers today particularly those on busy/ congested routes must surely be at least equal to that of conductors, but the much higher level of staff turnover in the bus industry suggests a fair number of people probably don't want the hassle of those responsibilities for the money on offer

 

[bb21]

If you can't get to work on time then its your own failure. People need to stop blaming the TOC's and the poor service because they cant plan a decent route to work. Not only that. Its pretty difficult to lose your job because you are late. How much continual lateness can be attributed to train delays to such an extent you get sacked ? Maybe if you work for Sports Direct.

That has to be a joke, right?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I went to school, got some education, went to college, couldn't be bothered to go to uni and went out to work. I'm pulling in a £50kpa job that didn't need any qualifications.

I have friends that studied for years, got their Masters, worked in a McJob, finally entered their chosen careers and still earn less than me. Ask yourself. Who's the clever one ? All those years of training and your degree is worth Jack Shee.

The system is broken but that really isn't the Guards fault.

I probably fit into that category you sneer at and probably don't earn as much as you do right now.

You know what, I am probably no less happy than you with my job, for longer hours than you in most weeks. I don't envy your wages.

It probably won't take me long to overtake your wages either. My first promotion is already coming, less than a year into the job.

Don't knock people who are earning less than you do right now. That is, they may only be earning less than you do right now. Says nothing about the future.

That is even based on the assumption that money is everything, which is a line of thought that makes me sad, so I can't even be arsed to go there.