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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...
- Thread starter ainsworth74
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RailUK Forums
Hmm, so 3 months paid holiday and now he stands down, just in time to parachute Nigel Farage in as a Tory MP, leadership challenge by christmas, Farage as PM, Gove as Chancellor, Boris as Foreign (as it's just too hilarious) in the new year. Yeay.
Trog
Established Member
Do the treasury not have a rather poor record when it comes to economic forecasting?
Hornet
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Economists and Bookies are cut from the same cloth. Wouldn't trust either.
And you never see a poor economist or a poor bookie either.
TheKnightWho
Established Member
And bookies don't generally lose. The difference being that the treasury isn't trying to fleece you.
Trog
Established Member
I would trust the bookies to make a better forecast as they are more incentivised, the treasury mandarins get paid just the same if they are right or wrong.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Where did you see that information?
TheKnightWho
Established Member
Not really. There's a lot more money at stake for the treasury.
I'll have whatever you're on.
I heard a rumour. I don't hold much stock in it, any more than the rumour about tony blair coming back.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Odd, don't you think, that kippers spent years complaining about a democratically reached decision they didn't like and now expect everyone simply to shut up and accept a democratically reached decision they do like!
Very similar are the Corbynians and their £3 army who demand unswerving loyalty to their man who showed anything but unswerving loyalty to the Labour leadership over the last 25 years.
Odd, don't you think?
Very similar are the Corbynians and their £3 army who demand unswerving loyalty to their man who showed anything but unswerving loyalty to the Labour leadership over the last 25 years.
Odd, don't you think?
Are you saying that the Government in 1975 should have overruled the will of the majority of voters and left the EC? If not it would be odd to say that the Government should overrule the result of the EU referendum.
Or perhaps you're saying that nobody should be allowed to reverse Brexit until the year 2057? If not it would be odd to deny people the chance to reverse a decision made forty-one years ago.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
i simply point out the hypocrisy of many actors.
If the kippers were saying that we should Brexit, and that decision should never, ever be allowed to be reversed, then it would be hypocritical.
But saying we should leave the EU because that's what a majority of the voters want is not hypocritical. They're just saying that the Government should respect the results of the referendum just as they did in '75. Entirely consistent.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
the point, you seem keen to overlook, is the fact that kippers criticise people for criticising a democratically reached decision and campaigning for a second referendum. Exactly what they campaigned for!
Interesting use of the word exactly
The kippers campaigned for a second referendum forty-one years after the EC referendum.
If it were currently the year 2057, then you'd have a point. It would be hypocritical to deny people a referendum after 41 years - that's what the kippers got, after all.
However, it's not 2057, it's the current year. The kippers didn't get an immediate "do over" in 1975, so it's entirely consistent to say that the remoaners shouldn't get one now.
Very odd indeed -- I agree with you on both of those examples. As for the Kippers/Brexiteers, they have no right at all to expect any more loyalty from us Remainers to the leave decision than they shewed over forty years to the stay decision. And I do wonder what will happen at the next general election if a Tory party still clinging to Brexit means Brexit is up against a rejuvenated Labour party either standing on a pro-EU platform or at least offering a referendum on the terms of any exit.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
So complaints should be suspended until 2057? On what date should complaining start? I seem to recall kipperish complaints for many years. Could you let me know when it is OK to complain? You see UKIP was formed in 1993 and followed on from the Anti-Federalist League formed in 1991. There were the likes of The Referendum Party in the mid 90's and complainants going back to the time of the original referendum so it would help if you could clarify when complaining may start and on what basis it may take place.
That said, you still seem unwilling to grasp the point that a complaint about a democratic decision is exactly what formed the basis of kipperism. However, I guess complaints are fine as long as they deliver your preferred outcome, just like the Corbyn supporters.
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With JC at the helm, a second referendum is unlikely. However, if we have learnt one thing from this whole situation, it is that referendums should be avoided at all costs, especially on important matters like membership of the EU, they're an absolute clusterf*ck.
There's a difference between complaints and referendums.
It's hypocritical for kippers to complain about people complaining. It's hypocritical for anyone to complain about complaining. It's hypocritical of you to complain about kippers complaining about remoaners complaining.
But it's not hypocritical for kippers to oppose having a second referendum until after we actually Brexit. Saying we should be allowed to see how well Brexit works out and then deliver a verdict is an entirely consistent position to take.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Because sometimes they return decisions you don't like?
I'd rather a referendum on the EU than have 17 million people becoming so frustrated at being ignored that they vote UKIP.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
If you could point out where I say there should be a second referendum I would be grateful. You seem to be deliberately mendacious.
So your view is that we should decide how well the suicide pact works after we shoot ourselves in the head! superb!
Several kippers here suggest that those with differing views should simply shut u and accept the referendum result. Just like they did for all those years.If you could point out where I say there should be a second referendum I would be grateful. You seem to be deliberately mendacious.
So your view is that we should decide how well the suicide pact works after we shoot ourselves in the head! superb!
First off, stop being such a drama queen. Brexit is not going to kill us all.
In post 88 you implied that kippers are hypocritical for opposing a second referendum. My point was (and is) that it's entirely consistent to want to wait until after we have left the EU before casting judgement on Brexit with a second referendum.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Can you not see how having a referendum about leaving the EU after leaving the EU might be a touch hard? :roll: BTW you still haven't shown how i support a second referendum. I will ask again: show me where I have said that.
On what terms will your second referendum stand? That leaving was a mistake and could we possible be let back in the club? I am not sure that is going to work. I accept that people voted to leave. We all had a vote. I simply feel it is odd that the people who complained most vociferously about the last referendum now expect those unhappy with this decision to sit quietly.
BTw - any ideas on what the plan to leave the EU looks like or where the £350m a week for the NHS has got to?
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Show me where I said that you personally want a second referendum.
Kippers are hypocritical for complaining about people complaining about Brexit. They are not hypocritical per se just for opposing a second referendum. The exceptions would be 1) Those kippers who demanded an immediate second referendum in '75 because they didn't like the results, and 2) Those kippers who demanded a second referendum when it looked like Remain would win. Those kippers are hypocrites.
Anyway, I suggest if this conversation is to continue, it does so in the appropriate thread...
No, because asking people to vote on something as complex as the EU based on a few months of rather 'interesting' campaigning* is monumentally stupid and you end up like the chap from Hartlepool who was interviewed on the morning of the 24th who said that he voted to leave because "it's all about the Muslims". Indeed it was only this week that we saw the official vote leave campaign back away from their £350 million a week to the NHS claim. The whole reason we have a parliament is to make these kind of important complex decisions for us, after all we live in representative democracy. Calling decisions based on poorly informed, emotional views democratic (whilst true) is a bit of a push, Mob Rule would be a better description.
I can't help the fact that the electorate decided to 'endorse' FPTP in another recent referendum (which I seem to remember also had some pretty appalling campaigning before it).
I do think your theory that had there not been an referendum, all of the leave voters would have suddenly united behind Nigel Farage a bit of a leap of imagination. However, had UKIP swept to power, I'd be fine with that as it'd be a decision made by a (hopefully) educated Parliament with everything considered rather than the mess we have now.
*Interesting as in you had one side who spread lies and some interesting interpretations of the facts, and the other side who didn't really seem to do anything at all.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
There was a referendum held on whether we should leave Europe or not. The majority voted for Brexit. That's it, full stop, the government now gets on with the exit negotiations. If anybody who voted Brexit is not happy with the final terms, hard luck. Similarly the Remainers should stop whingeing about the referendum result and stop showing themselves up as bad losers.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
and there we have it. Shut up and accept it, just like the Kippers did for years. :roll: Could you explain how they weren't bad losers? Anyway, the similarity with the Corbynian view point is obvious. They expect and demand unswerving loyalty to the sainted Jeremy while overlooking his incredible record of disloyalty throughout his time as an MP.
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I do agree with your opinion to an extent. That we need a democratic proxy to reduce poorly informed, kneejerk reactionary decisions. As to quote Peep Shows Super Hans: "People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can’t trust people"
Although the big issue we have with democratically elected representatives as that they often make decisions in their own interests and then claim it's within the public's best interests. I partly think the way referendum was arranged was partly a riposte against this.
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The problem isn't with referenda or the British public themselves, rather it's that we wait for decades then ask people to vote on forty years of complex constitutional, political and economic change in one go.
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