Wales & Borders Franchise

[northwichcat]

Well that's not true as my Mum regularly speaks to my Aunt in Welsh at Shrewsbury, Gobowen and Chester stations... :roll:

I didn't mean all stations served by ATW in England. There's stations like Manchester Piccadilly where ATW put up bilingual posters - yet there's 200 languages spoken in Manchester and Welsh is a long way down that list of 200.

 

[transmanche]

I didn't mean all stations served by ATW in England. There's stations like Manchester Piccadilly where ATW put up bilingual posters - yet there's 200 languages spoken in Manchester and Welsh is a long way down that list of 200.

Ah, so you didn't mean the stations that you actually said; just a subset of those stations that others were magically supposed to glean.

And so what? How does having a dual-language poster in Manchester ruin your day? Surely it's cheaper to have one print run of dual-language posters, rather than have two print runs which have to be specifically allocated to separate stations.

To be honest, you're now starting to sound a bit racisty...

 

[thenorthern]

What about the residents of Chester, Ellesmere Port, Hooton, Bache, Capenhurst, Little Sutton or Overpool who can't ask their local MP or councillor abut the operation of their local rail service and can't ask their local representative on the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority as they don't have one? It doesn't all fall apart as they can respond to consultations directly and Merseytravel consult with all stakeholders. The same thing that is done by TfL, Transport Scotland and every transport authority in the UK.

Why are you so certain that TfW would not do the same.

Again, you're looking for a problem where none exists.

It is the same but not on the same scale, Arriva Trains Wales operate a large number of services with stops in eight English counties on of which (West Midlands) dosen't even border Wales. There are also quite a few English only routes by Arriva Trains Wales.

 

[northwichcat]

Ah, so you didn't mean the stations that you actually said; just a subset of those stations that others were magically supposed to glean.

I never said all stations served by ATW in England. I said stations in England where plenty of foreign languages can be heard but never Welsh. Obviously that isn't the case at some English stations almost on the Welsh border but you wanted to argue the point because your mum speaks Welsh, rather than accept that at some stations which ATW serve in England it would be more useful to have French, German, Polish, Urdu etc. than Welsh.

And so what? How does having a dual-language poster in Manchester ruin your day?

It would be more useful to use the space for a more widely spoken language. What's the point of having a foreign tourist unable to make out what's on a poster when it displays an official language of a neighbouring country which very few people speak and those who do speak it are fluent in the other language displayed on the poster!

To be honest, you're now starting to sound a bit racisty...

Welsh language in England is as useful as Gaelic language along the North Wales Coast, yet does the franchise do anything for the small number of Gaelic speakers going to/from Holyhead? I'm in favour of equality but it seems yourself and some other posters think the franchise should cater for what the Welsh want and anyone else can get lost.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The WG did a consultation recently on the next W&B franchise.
I sent my comments in, hopefully those on here with comments did the same.
I think it went to all Local Authorities served by the current franchise.

The consultation has some questions which relate to the whole franchise, wherever people live, and some which only relate to Wales (eg about a smartcard covering Welsh rail and buses).
Some of it is very bland, eg about quality of services and buying a ticket.
No service proposals were made.
https://consultations.gov.wales/sit...r-rail-franchise-consultation-document-en.pdf

As far as I am aware, the analysis has not been published.
The real problem is we don't know who is responsible for setting the specification for the next franchise.
This consultation may be just a waste of time if the WG is not in charge.

 

[transmanche]

I never said all stations served by ATW in England. I said stations in England where plenty of foreign languages can be heard but never Welsh. Obviously that isn't the case at some English stations almost on the Welsh border but you wanted to argue the point because your mum speaks Welsh, rather than accept that at some stations which ATW serve in England it would be more useful to have French, German, Polish, Urdu etc. than Welsh.

You're reading far too much into what you think I said, when I merely responded to your comments and this almost hysterical reaction to the possibility of the W&B franchise being specified in Wales, when similar example happens elsewhere which don't seem to draw anything like the same amount of ire.

I notice you declined to respond to this, so I'll ask you more explicitly. Do you really think it would be better for ATW to print two sets of posters; one in English and Welsh which have to posted in Welsh stations only and a second set in English which have to posted at all ATW-served station in England. Or (like me) do you think that it's cheaper and more efficient to print one set of posters to be used at all ATW-served stations.

If your objection to the appearance of the Welsh-language in England is that strong, then perhaps you can offer to have printed and affixed (at your own cost) stickers to cover the bits in Welsh in a language of your choice.

Welsh language in England is as useful as Gaelic language along the North Wales Coast, yet does the franchise do anything for the small number of Gaelic speakers going to/from Holyhead?

Does CIE do anything on the opposite side for Welsh-speakers? Do they use Caergybi as well as Holyhead on their posters. Now you're just getting silly.

 

[Llanigraham]

(ATW put up notices in Welsh at stations in England where plenty of foreign languages can be heard but never Welsh.)

Another slight exaggeration from you!
How do you know Welsh isn't spoken when you aren't there?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I didn't mean all stations served by ATW in England. There's stations like Manchester Piccadilly where ATW put up bilingual posters - yet there's 200 languages spoken in Manchester and Welsh is a long way down that list of 200.

You said Welsh was NEVER spoken in these Stations!
Make up your mind.
And for information, I have heard Welsh spoken in many of the stations served by ATW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is the same but not on the same scale, Arriva Trains Wales operate a large number of services with stops in eight English counties on of which (West Midlands) dosen't even border Wales. There are also quite a few English only routes by Arriva Trains Wales.

So what?
:roll::roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I never said all stations served by ATW in England. I said stations in England where plenty of foreign languages can be heard but never Welsh. Obviously that isn't the case at some English stations almost on the Welsh border but you wanted to argue the point because your mum speaks Welsh, rather than accept that at some stations which ATW serve in England it would be more useful to have French, German, Polish, Urdu etc. than Welsh.



It would be more useful to use the space for a more widely spoken language. What's the point of having a foreign tourist unable to make out what's on a poster when it displays an official language of a neighbouring country which very few people speak and those who do speak it are fluent in the other language displayed on the poster!



Welsh language in England is as useful as Gaelic language along the North Wales Coast, yet does the franchise do anything for the small number of Gaelic speakers going to/from Holyhead? I'm in favour of equality but it seems yourself and some other posters think the franchise should cater for what the Welsh want and anyone else can get lost.

Yes you did, see the quote above!!
And you are beginning to sound decidedly racist.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The WG did a consultation recently on the next W&B franchise.
I sent my comments in, hopefully those on here with comments did the same.
I think it went to all Local Authorities served by the current franchise.

The consultation has some questions which relate to the whole franchise, wherever people live, and some which only relate to Wales (eg about a smartcard covering Welsh rail and buses).
Some of it is very bland, eg about quality of services and buying a ticket.
No service proposals were made.
https://consultations.gov.wales/sit...r-rail-franchise-consultation-document-en.pdf

As far as I am aware, the analysis has not been published.
The real problem is we don't know who is responsible for setting the specification for the next franchise.
This consultation may be just a waste of time if the WG is not in charge.

I was fortunate enough to see a large number of the responses. Some were very well thought out and of high quality with a clear understanding of passenger demand in the area including contributions from English RUg's and local authorities. The problem is WG have a team of policy generalists dealing with it and it's over their heads. The feedback from the consultation feedback exercise in Shrewsbury was that they had no real understanding of rail services in Wales and we're doing entry level stuff without displaying any vision beyond general statements.

Does WG actually have a forumalated spec? They must do to release the ITT so it's been done secret squirrel style by people that have been kept distanced from the mood music on the ground and away from influence.

 

[6Gman]

How many notices in Scouse dialect do Merseyrail put up at Chester station? None (ATW put up notices in Welsh at stations in England where plenty of foreign languages can be heard but never Welsh.)

Plenty of Welsh heard on Chester station!

And Shrewsbury. And Crewe.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes you did, see the quote above!!
And you are beginning to sound decidedly racist.

No I didn't. I maybe could have phrased it slightly differently to prevent a misinterpretation but why are you bothering to argue something I have already clarified that I didn't mean?

Obviously you've got no constructive ideas for the next franchise so you just want to accuse people who do of being racist because decent ideas will benefit England as well as Wales.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Plenty of Welsh heard on Chester station!

And Shrewsbury. And Crewe.

See post 91

 

[6Gman]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

See post 91

Nope. Heard the language there too.




(When you're in a hole, stop digging.)

 

[daodao]

It might be beneficial for the W&B franchise to take over additional services in border counties like Cheshire and Shropshire (e.g. all non-electric services to Chester and Shrewsbury, apart from Virgin trains to London) to simplify operational arrangements.

While such a franchise might not be purely "Welsh", it might lead to notices in Welsh appearing in additional English stations, such as Knutsford.

 

[WatcherZero]

As far as I am aware, the analysis has not been published.
The real problem is we don't know who is responsible for setting the specification for the next franchise.
This consultation may be just a waste of time if the WG is not in charge.

Welsh government have control of services with infrastructure control to come in a couple of years. The WG are writing the spec and trying to shape it in to a modernising build and operate spec, kind of like the ones done when building tram networks.

 

[notlob.divad]

Right, enough arguing about what language posters are in and who speaks what where and all that. This debate has gone on for too long on too many different threads. What is important is that whatever shakes out of the refranchising of what has previously been known as W&B franchise is the most suitable for the people who use the services. Irrespective of whether they have representation in the Welsh Assembly or not. People need cross border services, that is a given, and I don't think anyone is being serious about people disembarking at border stations and shuffling down the platform, there is enough problems with that at the ends of the Merseyrail network without adding more.

That said, it would be highly unusual for services like the Crewe - Chester and Crewe - Shrewsbury shuttles to stay part of franchise controlled by the WG. I suspect these two routes and thus the stations on the routes will pass to other TOCs. Most likely London Midland and or Northern.

Then, the WG controlled franchise may stop serving the smaller stations on their routes in order to provide a service that mainly caters for travellers too/from Wales. As an Example. The North Wales coast service, may run Semi- fast East of Chester, only stopping at WBQ and Manchester stations. Capacity dependent upon another stopping train taking its place. Again this would drop another handful of stations within England out of the franchise which would be taken up by another operator or a PTE depending on the local politics of where they are.

I think that will leave the stations between Hereford and Shrewsbury and the Manchester to Cardiff+ Service. I think the WG, will struggle to argue the case to keep this service in the franchise, if they are to be the franchisee. What you may see is the opposite of what I suggested above, with the new Wales franchise putting on more services as Far as Abergavenny with the current service running semi-fast calling at just Newport and Abergavenny.

No solution is ideal but if people are determined to draw lines on a map and demand control of territory, and what goes on in that territory, these are the kinds of compromises that need to be made.

 

[Llanigraham]

No I didn't. I maybe could have phrased it slightly differently to prevent a misinterpretation but why are you bothering to argue something I have already clarified that I didn't mean?

It appears I am not the only one to have read what you wrote!
I'd quit before your hole gets too deep, if I was you.

Obviously you've got no constructive ideas for the next franchise so you just want to accuse people who do of being racist because decent ideas will benefit England as well as Wales.

I have proposed we keep the status quo, but that doesn't appear to what you want to hear. And I am still waiting to hear a sensible, workable and practical solution from you. (and others!)

 

[craigybagel]

. And I am still waiting to hear a sensible, workable and practical solution from you. (and others!)

Including the WAG, even they don't seem to have come up with any great ideas yet! But yes, nothing wrong with the status quo that a bit of investment wouldn't fix. Hopefully that will be a big part of the next franchise, regardless of who gets to pick who runs it.

 

[Francis]

Some English names have Celtic or Welsh roots anyway. A major railway example is Crewe, which appears in the Domesday book as Creu, from old Welsh "criu" meaning a ford, Cryw in modern Welsh.

 

[the sniper]

Can we give this irrelevant language stuff a rest please, we don't need to risk any more 'racism' occurring, it's made enough of a mess of this thread already...

 

[thenorthern]

Parliament was discussing something about this very thing tonight but I haven't managed to read it all yet.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Parliament was discussing something about this very thing tonight but I haven't managed to read it all yet.

If you mean the Wales Bill, it contains precious little about transport.
It's about devolved taxes and the legislation that goes with it.
Also things like road speed limits, bus regulation and taxis.
Nothing about rail.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2016-2017/0049/17049.pdf

 

[WatcherZero]

Labour amendment opening railways in Wales to nationalisation via public sector bidders defeated 286 votes to 191. Plaid Cyrmu amendment to devolve Air Passenger Duty to Wales defeated 281 votes to 195. Bristol Airport said abolition of APD at Cardiff would cost the South West £843m and 1,500 jobs over ten tears.

Conservatives have not complied with Silk commission suggestion of devolving policing and youth justice but have devolved energy policy. Plaid amendment calling for Wales to become its own legal jurisdiction (i.e. separate legal system) defeated 288 votes to 30. Labour tried to table an amendment reducing to a simple majority rather than a super majority votes on changing the number of members in the Welsh Assembly.

Stamp Duty tax replaced by a Welsh land transaction tax to raise £250m more a year.
Other devolved things in this bill (1 of 3 and setting out the high level stuff) petroleum extraction tax, road transport, bus, taxis, harbours, Small-mid sized power stations and grid, fishing conservation, green tax schemes, changing the name of the Assembly for example to Parliament.

 

[gareth950]

How can there be NO reference to devolving control of the railways to Wales in this Wales Bill? The powers are supposed to be going to the WG by next Spring/Summer at the latest!
This just reinforces my thoughts that Westminster are in no way taking the current capacity crisis on the W&B franchise seriously and no-one in govt knows what the hell to do with this franchise and how to manage it from 2018.

I'm stunned.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How can there be NO reference to devolving control of the railways to Wales in this Wales Bill? The powers are supposed to be going to the WG by next Spring/Summer at the latest!
This just reinforces my thoughts that Westminster are in no way taking the current capacity crisis on the W&B franchise seriously and no-one in govt knows what the hell to do with this franchise and how to manage it from 2018.
I'm stunned.

It isn't new news, that was how the Wales Bill was presented last year.
The Bill was pulled for review of its content, but still doesn't include rail.
We are still in the position that new UK legislation is needed to allow WG to let the franchise.
The sticking point, apart from any remapping, will be the Treasury agreeing the funds to be transferred to WG for the franchise (size of subsidy etc).
Maybe also powers over infrastructure.

 

[gareth950]

It isn't new news, that was how the Wales Bill was presented last year.
The Bill was pulled for review of its content, but still doesn't include rail.
We are still in the position that new UK legislation is needed to allow WG to let the franchise.
The sticking point, apart from any remapping, will be the Treasury agreeing the funds to be transferred to WG for the franchise (size of subsidy etc).
Maybe also powers over infrastructure.

Ok thanks for clearing that up. It doesn't put an end to the frustration of it all though

 

[northwichcat]

It appears I am not the only one to have read what you wrote!
I'd quit before your hole gets too deep, if I was you.

I've clarified on more than one occasion what I meant. I didn't say Welsh is never spoken at all stations which ATW serve in England but because I didn't say 'all stations' or 'some stations' some posters including yourself wrongly presumed I meant 'all stations' when I didn't.

I don't know why people like yourself are choosing to ignore my later post and continue to argue about the wording of my earlier post. Like I said yesterday if you're continuing to argue about whether not including one word in one of my posts changes the meaning of it, you obviously have nothing constructive to say about the next franchise.

In fact as you said earlier on you're yet to hear any proposal that you think will work, how about going back to having the Regional Railways North West franchise area and scrapping the Holyhead to Cardiff services? That way the North West franchise can focus on connecting towns in North Wales with Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham.

 

[craigybagel]

, how about going back to having the Regional Railways North West franchise area and scrapping the Holyhead to Cardiff services? That way the North West franchise can focus on connecting towns in North Wales with Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham.

Probably a sensible idea, although with the north west now tied to the north east it might be unmanageably large to throw North Wales in as well. However, that's a moot point as axing Holyhead -Cardiff would be politically unacceptable. Expect to see more of them in the next franchise, not less.

 

[daodao]

I've clarified on more than one occasion what I meant. I didn't say Welsh is never spoken at all stations which ATW serve in England but because I didn't say 'all stations' or 'some stations' some posters including yourself wrongly presumed I meant 'all stations' when I didn't.

I don't know why people like yourself are choosing to ignore my later post and continue to argue about the wording of my earlier post. Like I said yesterday if you're continuing to argue about whether not including one word in one of my posts changes the meaning of it, you obviously have nothing constructive to say about the next franchise.

In fact as you said earlier on you're yet to hear any proposal that you think will work, how about going back to having the Regional Railways North West franchise area and scrapping the Holyhead to Cardiff services? That way the North West franchise can focus on connecting towns in North Wales with Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham.

North Wales is not part of North-West England and requires connectivity to its capital city. The W&B franchise enables most of the rail routes serving Wales to be grouped together in 1 franchise, facilitating WAG's input into overseeing rail services for Wales. Re-fragmentation would be counter-productive.

 

[northwichcat]

North Wales is not part of North-West England and requires connectivity to its capital city. The W&B franchise enables most of the rail routes serving Wales to be grouped together in 1 franchise, facilitating WAG's input into overseeing rail services for Wales. Re-fragmentation would be counter-productive.

A border within the UK shouldn't be a boundary to make it harder for people living on one side to work on the other side. Yet it's not a straight forward journey to get between North Wales and Liverpool due to politicians prioritising direct links to Cardiff (not a commutable distance from North Wales) over Liverpool (a commutable distance from some of North Wales.) A Liverpool-Runcorn-Holyhead service could call at Liverpool South Parkway, increasing the options for people in North Wales looking to fly to Europe. While Liverpool Airport is smaller than Manchester it does have direct flights to some cities and countries which Manchester does not.

Not having a direct Cardiff service doesn't mean people can't get between North Wales and Cardiff, it would simply require a change somewhere like Crewe and for those going beyond Cardiff it wouldn't increase the number of changes required as Holyhead to Swansea would still require one change.

 

[daodao]

A border within the UK shouldn't be a boundary to make it harder for people living on one side to work on the other side. Yet it's not a straight forward journey to get between North Wales and Liverpool due to politicians prioritising direct links to Cardiff (not a commutable distance from North Wales) over Liverpool (a commutable distance from some of North Wales.) A Liverpool-Runcorn-Holyhead service could call at Liverpool South Parkway, increasing the options for people in North Wales looking to fly to Europe. While Liverpool Airport is smaller than Manchester it does have direct flights to some cities and countries which Manchester does not.

Not having a direct Cardiff service doesn't mean people can't get between North Wales and Cardiff, it would simply require a change somewhere like Crewe and for those going beyond Cardiff it wouldn't increase the number of changes required as Holyhead to Swansea would still require one change.

There are excellent connections at Chester between the North Wales and frequent Liverpool services. It is not practicable to extend the 3rd rail Mersey electric services into North Wales.

 

[Mordac]

It isn't new news, that was how the Wales Bill was presented last year.
The Bill was pulled for review of its content, but still doesn't include rail.
We are still in the position that new UK legislation is needed to allow WG to let the franchise.
The sticking point, apart from any remapping, will be the Treasury agreeing the funds to be transferred to WG for the franchise (size of subsidy etc).
Maybe also powers over infrastructure.

The transfer of franchising responsibility can probably be done by statutory instrument (secondary legislation) once the deal is agreed between the WG and DfT.