Who have been the best TOCs so far?

[bb21]

I'd also say (perhaps controversially since nobody else has mentioned them I think) that East Midlands Trains have done a decent job although I'm sure those who live in Lincolnshire probably don't agree. The mainline service is good and they've invested a lot of money in their fleet and I've always been impressed with their customer service.

Not a bad shout, but there are more than a handful of miserable staff at a certain depot. I am generally pleased with EMT otherwise.

 

[HWLad]

I would also say Chiltern is the best TOC. They just seem to have a good and transparent operation. During the recent Banbury Upgrade for example, all Chiltern literature I saw about it always mentioned it being a Network Rail investment whereas other operators like Virgin and FGW have implied in the past that infrastructure and upgrade work done bet NR was actually them. The biggest problem with them I can think of is while frequencies for off-peak have improved for the captive market, the intervals between them are now relatively unequal compared to pre-Evergreen 3.

Another good operator in my opinion was East Coast, I cannot think of a bad time I have travelled with them and I always got the feeling that it was an operation that people actually enjoyed travelling on.

 

[Robertj21a]

I have to jump on the bandwagon and praise Chiltern. Good customer service, nice trains, clean stations and I'm quite fond of Marylebone and Moor Street. The only negative I've found is they don't always handle disruption very well but I think that's in part due to the nature of the line.

I'd also say (perhaps controversially since nobody else has mentioned them I think) that East Midlands Trains have done a decent job although I'm sure those who live in Lincolnshire probably don't agree. The mainline service is good and they've invested a lot of money in their fleet and I've always been impressed with their customer service.

I had mentioned EMT (alongside SWT) in an earlier post (27) - certainly deserving of recognition. Strange that they're both Stagecoach......

 

[glbotu]

I think this is a very difficult question to answer, not least because

1. The sample size is small
2. Without having had multiple TOCs running the same route, how do you know how good a job they've done? (or for those more statistically minded, this is just point 1 made again).

Most people have said Chiltern. Well, they've been the only TOC to run the Chiltern Mainline, a line which had, for the most part, been resigned to the rump of the railways by BR. They were given an experimental "long" franchise, much longer than any of the others, simply because at original franchising, no-one would get a decent return on investment otherwise. They have done a decent job, but we don't know what anyone else would have done.

Certainly the claims of "Anglia Railways", are very interesting, because that's been a service run by 3 different railway companies and for one to be better than the others is actually notable, although again, that is a distinction between a TOC who's only responsibility was an Inter City mainline and some regional services, and one who's had to deal with a host of commuter services, an intercity mainline and an airport express.

Various East Coast mainline companies (except Virgin) have also been mentioned, which probably just reflects the general high standard of East Coast Mainline services.

Also notable is that the Southern and Southeastern TOCs have also been put down as some of the worst. Notably, they run an unbelievable number of commuter services across some horrible networks (high frequency across flat junctions, lots of alternative routes, all of whom want their turn-up-and-go to multiple termini). Again, that is far more indicative of the network they have to run than the performance of the TOC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would also say Chiltern is the best TOC. They just seem to have a good and transparent operation.

Chiltern do have a very German or Scandinavian style approach of treating their passengers in a very grown-up way. The explanation of why the Banbury commuter service has had to mostly become a Bicester one is a good example of this - something bad (for Banbury passengers) but explained rationally.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Chiltern do have a very German or Scandinavian style approach of treating their passengers in a very grown-up way.

Sometimes, but not always, and it depends where you are on their network.

Getting sense out of anybody on a Sunday evening at Aylesbury when everything is locked up is always...interesting.

 

[ainsworth74]

Chiltern is no stereotype really, it's a lovely operator I always enjoy travelling with. Birmingham Moor Street and London Marylebone are immaculate and cared for with much love. Sure, I bet their commuters have their grumbles but they are still one of the best.

As much as I do like Chiltern (and I really really do) whenever I've visited the toilets at Marylebone they have been horrible. The rest of Marylebone is lovely but the toilets are a huge negative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As much as I do like Chiltern (and I really really do) whenever I've visited the toilets at Marylebone they have been horrible. The rest of Marylebone is lovely but the toilets are a huge negative.

The toilets are a huge negative at most stations, to be honest. They really need a little more attention to detail - some airports, such as Gatwick, pride themselves on it, and then you've got the Swiss and German McClean/WC-Center concept which charges a higher fee (a quid or thereabouts) but has a member of staff permanently present and cleaning each part of the facility after every single use, meaning a spotlessly clean and safe-feeling facility.

Because of the obvious issues with CCTV provision, permanent staffing (and it's not like toilet cleaners are expensive staff[1]) is the best solution to ensuring a quality facility.

Yet no TOC seems to bother, I wonder why?

[1] Even at the London living wage of £9.15 per hour, and assuming the oft-quoted model that employing a member of staff costs twice their salary, it would cost about £750 per day to staff both bogs at Marylebone for the full period of service, which is very little in the scheme of the cost of operating the railway. If you upped the charge to 50p/pee, you'd probably easily cover a large chunk of that.

 

[Marton]

GNER train presentation was very good (and stylish) - they may not have got the 3 Parkway stations or the tilting sets that were talked about , but they did introduce Leeds half hourly for most of the day (remember the 373's in GNER colours) - and did a MK4 "Mallard" refurb with a good standard class makeover.



Proper dining cars, open to all ,was another plus.

Agree.

Also seem to have had good staff relations. Some longer serving staff still say it was the best.

I remember Christopher Garnett on the platform at KX post Hatfield actually talking to staff and passengers.

 

[AJM580]

From experience I always felt it was a shame Wrexham & Shropshire didn't last long - proper Mk III's and the catering was pretty good. Closer to home I also think Anglia Railways made a decent fist of things and were always prepared to accomodate the enthusiasts - hiring in the Hasting unit, D9000 and 50050 and using them on main-line trains. They also got the ball rolling with the Cambridge service and the half hourly London trains as well

 

[Parallel]

Out of the TOCs I've travelled on which won't be as many as some of you! (FGW/GWR, Wessex Trains, Arriva Trains Wales, Virgin Trains, Cross Country, London Midland, South West Trains, Chiltern Railways, Northern Rail, Southern, Gatwick Express) my favourites would probably be Chiltern - I think they have a great attitude as a TOC, treat passengers well and have a strong interest in developing their network. They've also done a fantastic job with Birmingham Moor Street.

I also really enjoy travelling with Arriva Trains Wales, and find most guards friendly and helpful. I know a lot of it is also down to the WG but I think it's refreshing that even rural lines/stations still get a fairly decent service.

GWR do have very good fares for Devon and Cornwall and they have a willingness to work with local communities to improve services, but other areas leave a little more to be desired. South West Trains are generally good, bar one or two occasions.

 

[cjmillsnun]

You clearly do not live on the Portsmouth Direct I reckon.

I do (I live in Petersfield), and I rate SWT. I don't like 450s on the Pompey direct, however we are where we are, and to be fair there are more 444s than there were initially after the Piggies left the SWML. Most of the issues on the Pompey direct are infrastructure related. Mainly the signalling and level crossings around where I live.

SWT are a professional outfit with good customer service and industrial relations and good quality stock. They have some issues, but to be fair, any operator with those routes would.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Another vote for Chiltern and SWT here.

I haven't seen Southeastern mentioned much on here - the customers that use them seem to regard them as the "worst", but I wonder if the Kentish are just more vocal than others when it comes to dissatisfaction. They're my local operator, and at least since they had the last franchise renewal and David Statham took charge, they have at least tried to get the customers to hate them less - refreshing the 375s, making social media 24/7, customer magazines, and so on. There are a million reasons as to why people's services are disrupted, but in most cases, the TOC still gets the blame.

They're far from the best, but despite coming bottom in passenger satisfaction, I certainly wouldn't say they're the worst.

 

[Phil.]

C2C have the friendliest staff. Especially the smiling driver who, upon seeing me come clattering down the stairs at a station (can't remember, somewhere in Greater London) re-released the doors so that I could throw myself onto the train.

 

[coppercapped]

I think this is a very difficult question to answer, not least because

1. The sample size is small
2. Without having had multiple TOCs running the same route, how do you know how good a job they've done? (or for those more statistically minded, this is just point 1 made again).

Most people have said Chiltern. Well, they've been the only TOC to run the Chiltern Mainline, a line which had, for the most part, been resigned to the rump of the railways by BR. They were given an experimental "long" franchise, much longer than any of the others, simply because at original franchising, no-one would get a decent return on investment otherwise. They have done a decent job, but we don't know what anyone else would have done.

Certainly the claims of "Anglia Railways", are very interesting, because that's been a service run by 3 different railway companies and for one to be better than the others is actually notable, although again, that is a distinction between a TOC who's only responsibility was an Inter City mainline and some regional services, and one who's had to deal with a host of commuter services, an intercity mainline and an airport express.

Various East Coast mainline companies (except Virgin) have also been mentioned, which probably just reflects the general high standard of East Coast Mainline services.

Also notable is that the Southern and Southeastern TOCs have also been put down as some of the worst. Notably, they run an unbelievable number of commuter services across some horrible networks (high frequency across flat junctions, lots of alternative routes, all of whom want their turn-up-and-go to multiple termini). Again, that is far more indicative of the network they have to run than the performance of the TOC.

A very accurate comment on all these questions about 'best' or 'worst'.

In addition what does 'best' or 'worst' mean in the context of a TOC? Absolute train reliability in terms of 'miles per technical incident'? Best (worst) improvement in train reliability in terms of 'miles per technical incident'? Greatest (least) increase in passenger numbers? Greatest (least) increase in passenger-miles? Greatest reduction/increase in absolute subsidy? Greatest reduction/increase in subsidy per passenger? Greatest reduction/increase in subsidy per passenger-mile? Larges/leastt amount of money returned to the DfT during the franchise period? Punctuality? Proportion of cancelled or late trains? Staff injuries? Staff turnover? Variety of rolling stock?

Unless criteria are defined such questions can never return an answer.

 

[bb21]

I do (I live in Petersfield), and I rate SWT. I don't like 450s on the Pompey direct, however we are where we are, and to be fair there are more 444s than there were initially after the Piggies left the SWML. Most of the issues on the Pompey direct are infrastructure related. Mainly the signalling and level crossings around where I live.

SWT are a professional outfit with good customer service and industrial relations and good quality stock. They have some issues, but to be fair, any operator with those routes would.

Only if everyone is so understanding.

 

[Loop & Link]

Wrexham & Shropshire had a good reputation. Shame I never got to travel with them.

I agree that Merseyrail is a vastly improved on cleanliness and antisocial behaviour compared to the late 90s or early 2000s. However overcrowding is now a big problem (didn't they turn down the offer of some surplus 508s?) and none of their stations offer collection of tickets & reservations booked online. As a result I'm left fighting for a seat or standing on long distance services from Liverpool just because my local station is managed by Merseyrail.

Come and buy them direct from our lovely ticket offices, despite what some might think, I have no issues with finding advance tickets or obscure tickets! I know my stuff!

 

[cjmillsnun]

Only if everyone is so understanding.

Then again I work in Horley so I have a direct comparison with what must be the absolute worst TOC in the country at this time. Compared to GTR any TOC looks reasonably professional, and SWT very professional. I just hope they are allowed to retain their "absolute legends"* after the refranchising process.

*see attachment

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I am a regular commuter with SWT and if this question had been asked last year I would have been there with the other posters that have praised SWT.

Since the turn of the year the service has been very poor with many delays. Admittedly most are probably down to NR.

I wondered if the deterioration of service had anything to do with SWT decision not to take up the offer to renew the franchise?

 

[AJG3]

I would also say Chiltern is the best TOC. They just seem to have a good and transparent operation. During the recent Banbury Upgrade for example, all Chiltern literature I saw about it always mentioned it being a Network Rail investment whereas other operators like Virgin and FGW have implied in the past that infrastructure and upgrade work done bet NR was actually them. The biggest problem with them I can think of is while frequencies for off-peak have improved for the captive market, the intervals between them are now relatively unequal compared to pre-Evergreen 3.

Another good operator in my opinion was East Coast, I cannot think of a bad time I have travelled with them and I always got the feeling that it was an operation that people actually enjoyed travelling on.

Another telling thing about East Coast was once when travelling from KGX to Aberdeen, the wires were pulled down at Hitchin by a southbound Cambridge-KGX train, and the HST I was on got held up. The EC director was sitting opposite me and personally went up to see the driver and phone Control. Result: We were on our way again in around 25 minutes. Also, I noticed that all the staff knew who he was, and he knew all their first names without having to look at the name badge. It was genuine, not something an MBA module had taught on how to ladle dollops of faux-chumminess to the Untermenschen. Nice guy, chatted a bit to him; came up through the ranks in BR days.

 

[richw]

The toilets are a huge negative at most stations, to be honest. They really need a little more attention to detail - some airports, such as Gatwick, pride themselves on it,

I was at a Motorway services last week, and as you exit the toilet there is a survey thing, the question is "did you find these toilets to be clean?". It had 2 options a smiley face and sad face to press. According to a poster if a sad face is pressed a member of staff is sent to attend and clean within 5 mins. The toilets were the cleanest I'd seen at any services, railway station or airport
It would be dependent on the staff having a general jobs agreement, such as McDs where the crew members have cleanliness listed as one of their many duties.

Back to best TOC, personally its impossible to call, as I couldn't say what another TOC would do with my local lines if dealt the same hand with rolling stock and requirements.
Also my local council are investing £30m in recent years into railway projects, (one of the highest in the u.k.) which is to improve local services, so the local TOC has an advantage. The council are happy with their investment due to the massive increase in passenger numbers.

 

[ainsworth74]

C2C have the friendliest staff. Especially the smiling driver who, upon seeing me come clattering down the stairs at a station (can't remember, somewhere in Greater London) re-released the doors so that I could throw myself onto the train.

I think my favorite of things like that that I've seen was on a Northern service on my local line (so driver/guard) where the guard had closed up and given two on the buzzer, the driver had seen someone running for the train so hopped out of the cab, released the local door to allow the passenger on, closed up, back in the cab and gave two back and pulled away!

On another occasion I benefited from an eagle eyed guard who had closed up the train but spotted me as a ran onto the platform. I had given up hope as I'd seen the bodyside lights go out only for the rear doors to reopen and a hand to pop out waving me to run down and hop on. Lots of that sort of stuff seems to happen on my line.

 

[richw]

I think my favorite of things like that that I've seen was on a Northern service on my local line (so driver/guard) where the guard had closed up and given two on the buzzer, the driver had seen someone running for the train so hopped out of the cab, released the local door to allow the passenger on, closed up, back in the cab and gave two back and pulled away!

On another occasion I benefited from an eagle eyed guard who had closed up the train but spotted me as a ran onto the platform. I had given up hope as I'd seen the bodyside lights go out only for the rear doors to reopen and a hand to pop out waving me to run down and hop on. Lots of that sort of stuff seems to happen on my line.

I've had similar from GWR/FGW the guard saw 4 of us running over the footbridge and allowed us on through his door after the rest were locked. He then sold us a group save even though we were buying our tickets individually (singles with cash)

 

[cjmillsnun]

I am a regular commuter with SWT and if this question had been asked last year I would have been there with the other posters that have praised SWT.

Since the turn of the year the service has been very poor with many delays. Admittedly most are probably down to NR.

I wondered if the deterioration of service had anything to do with SWT decision not to take up the offer to renew the franchise?

I very much doubt it as they are shortlisted for the new franchise.

 

[bb21]

I am a regular commuter with SWT and if this question had been asked last year I would have been there with the other posters that have praised SWT.

Since the turn of the year the service has been very poor with many delays. Admittedly most are probably down to NR.

I wondered if the deterioration of service had anything to do with SWT decision not to take up the offer to renew the franchise?

Largest causes of disruption since the beginning of this year (April) AIUI are external, ie. trespass, fatality, vandalism, weather, etc.

Been a very poor year so far in terms of fatalities, unfortunately.

There have been a few spectacular infrastructure-related issues however, most notably Vauxhall fire.

 

[The Growl]

I always thought because stagecoach don't have the competence to operate bus services in London, how could they operate trains, but they operate 4 major franchises so apparently it's a different story. And according to, the Network SouthEast Story, they're quite good now.

 

[bb21]

I always thought because stagecoach don't have the competence to operate bus services in London,

You thought very wrong. Sorry.

 

[Robertj21a]

I always thought because stagecoach don't have the competence to operate bus services in London, how could they operate trains, but they operate 4 major franchises so apparently it's a different story. And according to, the Network SouthEast Story, they're quite good now.

Where on earth did you get any story that Stagecoach didn't have the competence to run bus services in London ? - as with their trains, they're probably the most professional of all the London bus operators.

 

[bb21]

Where on earth did you get any story that Stagecoach didn't have the competence to run bus services in London ? - as with their trains, they're probably the most professional of all the London bus operators.

I suspect that he inferred from the absence of Stagecoach in the London market for four years?

Of course we both know that selling the business to Macquarie Bank for £264 million and buying it back a few years later (albeit shrunk slightly) for £50(?) million is one of the greatest masterstrokes in the noughties, but I guess not everyone does.

 

[richw]

I suspect that he inferred from the absence of Stagecoach in the London market for four years?

Of course we both know that selling the business to Macquarie Bank for £264 million and buying it back a few years later (albeit shrunk slightly) for £50(?) million is one of the greatest masterstrokes in the noughties, but I guess not everyone does.

Macquarie most famous in these parts for destroying Condor if my contacts in the Channel Islands ranting is anything to go by. Apparently lots of petitions to get rid going on!